When did the railways completely replace horse drawn transport

[Dyncymraeg]

I am curious when railways were introduced in Britain did this quickly kill off horse drawn transport between towns and cities or did horse drawn transport continue to be used after the introduction of the railways for some time. In addition at what point in Britain did horse drawn transport completely vanish as a form of transport within towns and cities.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

If anything, railways gave a great boost to horse transport because of the vast demand for travel to and from stations and goods yards. Demand for horses increased rather than decreased. The loss of long distance horse transport for passengers and freight was comparatively small compared with the vast increase in the size of the market to and from the railway hubs.
It wasn't until viable motor lorries, buses and cars came along that horse transport started to disappear from city streets from the 1920s onwards. Even then, it lingered on with milk floats and totters' carts into the 1970s or even later. I remember a horse-drawn totters' cart in south London in the mid-1980s.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I think one aspect of horse-drawn transport that the railways did kill off fairly quickly were the stagecoach services between towns and cities. For example, Wikipedia states 'By the early 1840s most London-based coaches had been withdrawn from service.'

 

[D7666]

Horse drawn hearses still appear today.

Well at least one appeared in my road last month - in service too not an ECS.

Does that count ?

I vaguely remember reading somewhere Oxford / London still had horse drawn stages for some while after WW1.

 

[Rescars]

The Douglas Bay Horse Tramway is still (and has always been) horse drawn.

 

[D7666]

The Douglas Bay Horse Tramway is still (and has always been) horse drawn.

Since when has IOM been in Britain per the OP question ?

IOM is in British Isles but is still not (and never has been) in Britain.

Not a valid answer.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The height of the stagecoach seems to have been about 1820-1838 ish, the opening of the London-Birmingham railway having a major impact on long distance coaching routes. Many improvements in journey time, and time keeping, particularly by Royal Mail coaches were still ongoing, even through the 1830's. A good insight in to this theme can be had by reading a small work by Brian Haughton 'Coaching Days in the Midlands' (Quercus/1997) if you can locate a copy. Basically covers the area bounded by Stoke (North), Gloucester (South), Shrewsbury (West) and Rugby (East), but gives a good feel as to how the industry worked and progressed over the late 18th century and through to its demise as such mid 19th century, albeit in some remote areas coaches were still being used in to the 1860s and later.

 

[Taunton]

Stagecoaches remained until the 1900s on routes not covered by rail. The daily stagecoach from Lynmouth to Minehead certainly did so (over those huge hills). The times even appeared in old GWR timetables. Motor buses even replaced this later than most, because the early vehicles could not manage the 1 in 4 gradients.

Curiously, for local freight haulage, the railways themselves kept horse haulage longer than anyone else. The LMS was a particular outlier in this. Have read that in photos of central London from the early 1930s there might still be the odd horse drawn vehicle, and if you look closely chances are that it is an LMS one.

George Behrend, rail book author, travelled on the narrow gauge Corris railway in 1948, and described the freight service conveyed a load of planks, which at Corris were transferred to a GWR horse-drawn dray (a type of cart) for delivery.

 

[Magdalia]

I am curious when railways were introduced in Britain did this quickly kill off horse drawn transport between towns and cities or did horse drawn transport continue to be used after the introduction of the railways for some time. In addition at what point in Britain did horse drawn transport completely vanish as a form of transport within towns and cities.

The last working horse on British Railways was Charlie who did shunting, appropriately, at Newmarket. He retired in 1967.

Some cultural references may be some help. The BBC TV black and white episodes of Steptoe and Son were made in 1962-65, their "rag and bone" business used a horse and cart. Benny Hill's Ernie (the fastest milkman in the west) was Christmas number 1 in 1971.

 

[Gloster]

I think that a major blow to the use of horses was the end of The Great War: suddenly there was a large number of War Surplus motor lorries available for next to nothing and a goodly number of young men who could drive or maintain these vehicles. Many businesses snapped these up and in turn it produced a demand for the various related services, from filling stations to road improvements, which only made the demand snowball. Of course some resisted the change, particularly the one horse (literally) operators who were set in their ways.

 

[Rescars]

Since when has IOM been in Britain per the OP question ?

IOM is in British Isles but is still not (and never has been) in Britain.

Not a valid answer.

You are of course quite correct. I was interpreting the location on a geographical rather than a constitutional basis. Speaking of which, horse drawn transport was used to convey the King to Westminster to open parliament just a few days ago. So horse-drawn transport in London isn't quite finished yet!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think that a major blow to the use of horses was the end of The Great War: suddenly there was a large number of War Surplus motor lorries available for next to nothing and a goodly number of young men who could drive or maintain these vehicles. Many businesses snapped these up and in turn it produced a demand for the various related services, from filling stations to road improvements, which only made the demand snowball. Of course some resisted the change, particularly the one horse (literally) operators who were set in their ways.

That of course with major changes related to landed estate changes , farm mechanisation , loss of a generation of young men and so on. Horse"traction" in cities was not exactly efficient or even hygenic ...

 

[Rescars]

The last working horse on British Railways was Charlie who did shunting, appropriately, at Newmarket. He retired in 1967.

Some cultural references may be some help. The BBC TV black and white episodes of Steptoe and Son were made in 1962-65, their "rag and bone" business used a horse and cart. Benny Hill's Ernie (the fastest milkman in the west) was Christmas number 1 in 1971.

According to the Oxford Companion, in 1914 the 11 largest companies owned approx 26,000 horses and the Big Four handed over 9,193 to the BTC in 1948.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In addition at what point in Britain did horse drawn transport completely vanish as a form of transport within towns and cities.

My bolding. Are we saying that the assumption in this part of the question is flawed? So, whilst horse drawn transport may well have largely vanished as a form of transport within towns and cities, it hasn't completely vanished.

 

[MP33]

In an episode of Minder, made around 1981. Terry visits his friend Des, who lives in a Council flat near the elevated M4. The camera picks up a Rag and Bone man leading his horse and cart along the road.

 

[Irascible]

In an episode of Minder, made around 1981. Terry visits his friend Des, who lives in a Council flat near the elevated M4. The camera picks up a Rag and Bone man leading his horse and cart along the road.

I'm just about old enough to remember one, certainly can't remember one from anywhere past the early 80s though.

Horse drawn transport? well the train killed the stagecoach, the electric tram and then WW1ish petrol buses killed the horse bus, I dont know how long horse-drawn taxis lasted as mainstream transport though ( can we not nit-pick about special occasions, I realise what forum I'm on yes ).

 

[Whisky Papa]

In an episode of Minder, made around 1981. Terry visits his friend Des, who lives in a Council flat near the elevated M4. The camera picks up a Rag and Bone man leading his horse and cart along the road.

I'm not sure when the last rag and bone man's cart I saw in Urmston was, but early 80s sounds about right.

Robinson's brewery in Stockport were still using a horse-drawn dray around the town centre until a few years later - I recall being stuck in traffic trying to pass one stood outside the Manchester Arms on the A6 when I was driving for Bee Line Buzz, so 1987/8.

 

[The exile]

My bolding. Are we saying that the assumption in this part of the question is flawed? So, whilst horse drawn transport may well have largely vanished as a form of transport within towns and cities, it hasn't completely vanished.

I suppose the relevant thing is the use of horse-vehicles for commercial point-to-point transport (as opposed to local deliveries).

 

[Rescars]

Young's brewery in Wandsworth stopped horse drawn deliveries in 1997, despite it being more economical than using diesel drays. A sad victim of road rage, apparently.

 

[snowball]

Some cultural references may be some help. The BBC TV black and white episodes of Steptoe and Son were made in 1962-65, their "rag and bone" business used a horse and cart.

Surely they still had a horse and cart when the series continued in colour until 1974, though the horse may not have appeared on camera very often, or possibly at all (most of the action was inside their house), and Harold often pressed his father to get rid of the horse.

 

[Gloster]

But did he have a horse? In my experience milkmen had battery-powered vehicles, called "milk floats" forsome reason.

”You could hear the hoof beats pound…” His name was Trigger.

 

[D7666]

I think that a major blow to the use of horses was the end of The Great War: suddenly there was a large number of War Surplus motor lorries

Wasn't it more that the WW1 demand for horses for military traction caused a domestic horse shortage conveniently filled afterwards by take up of surplus motors, rather than post war surplus vehicles alone driving the change. I have an sort of idea I read of domestic WW1 horse shortage in a war novel / biography - a book like Goodbye To All That (Robert Graves) but one of it's ilk not that one.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The BR-operated 3'6"-gauge Nantlle Tramway was horse-worked until closure in 1963.

 

[etr221]

I think that a major blow to the use of horses was the end of The Great War: suddenly there was a large number of War Surplus motor lorries available for next to nothing and a goodly number of young men who could drive or maintain these vehicles. Many businesses snapped these up and in turn it produced a demand for the various related services, from filling stations to road improvements, which only made the demand snowball. Of course some resisted the change, particularly the one horse (literally) operators who were set in their ways.

The outbreak of the Great War - and consequent call up of horses - also had an effect - the last London horse buses (and probably others elsewhere) were withdawn at that time, and most (all?) of the remaining horse trams went at the same time.

 

[Gloster]

Wasn't it more that the WW1 demand for horses for military traction caused a domestic horse shortage conveniently filled afterwards by take up of surplus motors, rather than post war surplus vehicles alone driving the change. I have an sort of idea I read of domestic WW1 horse shortage in a war novel / biography - a book like Goodbye To All That (Robert Graves) but one of it's ilk not that one.

I thought about that, but I suspect that it wasn’t a major factor as the military would have a large number of horses which were also surplus to requirements. Even if this was unbalanced by the way that many were abroad and they weren’t allowed or couldn’t afford to bring them back, I suspect that there were still plenty of horses at home that would have partially filled the gap. A factor may have been that a lot of young no longer wanted to spend hours plodding around the country and caring for horses, while a lorry was quicker and required less attention.

 

[D7666]

the Big Four handed over 9,193 to the BTC in 1948.

I always find useless statistics like that amusing.

Animals killed / die / sold / bought / born on a random basis irrespective of audits. The returns from the "depots" on head count almost certainly changed before reaching the HQ bean counters and such a figure is unlike to be exactly 9193 but more like 9200 +/- 100 if not a bigger range.

Even doing a count at exactly say 12:00 on audit day produces impractical data as up to 11:59 and from 12:01 the counts are different.

_

A factor may have been that a lot of young no longer wanted to spend hours plodding around the country and caring for horses, while a lorry was quicker and required less attention.

Well yes, certainly returning demobbed personnel was an issue with what they were willing to do. It was hardly surprising really. There was a whole gamut of social changes post WW1, domestic service being another one, which springs to mind as over the whole land the landed gentry were prolific horse owner operators but general undoing of those set-ups.

 

[The exile]

Surely they still had a horse and cart when the series continued in colour until 1974, though the horse may not have appeared on camera very often, or possibly at all (most of the action was inside their house), and Harold often pressed his father to get rid of the horse.

Though of course the continued use (or not) of horses for this kind of work had nothing to do with the railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==

I always find useless statistics like that amusing.

Animals killed / die / sold / bought / born on a random basis irrespective of audits. The returns from the "depots" on head count almost certainly changed before reaching the HQ bean counters and such a figure is unlike to be exactly 9193 but more like 9200 +/- 100 if not a bigger range.

Even doing a count at exactly say 12:00 on audit day produces impractical data as up to 11:59 and from 12:01 the counts are different.

_


Well yes, certainly returning demobbed personnel was an issue with what they were willing to do. It was hardly surprising really. There was a whole gamut of social changes post WW1, domestic service being another one, which springs to mind as over the whole land the landed gentry were prolific horse owner operators but general undoing of those set-ups.

After both wars there was a sudden influx not only of demobbed personnel who could drive, but also vehicles waiting to be driven.

 

[weepingwillowb]

Samuel Smith's Brewery still makes Shire horse-drawn deliveries in and around Tadcaster every week, and I actually saw the horses and dray while passing through Taddy on a Leeds to York bus one weekday last month.

Shire Horses | Samuel Smith's Brewery | Tadcaster | Yorkshire

Samuel Smith's Grey Shire Horses stabled at the brewery are used to deliver beer in and around Tadcaster five days a week.

samuelsmithsbrewery.co.uk

 

[D7666]

I can just about remember horses in occasional use by small holder farmers in the villages I come from. And I am not /that/ old.

The real small holders i.e. those with a couple of fields and one tractor, there were 2 in my home village with horses, they were useful economic means say to move a couple of hay bales to a field or collect logs etc; they were not used for ploughing or tasks like that. ISTR as each horse died or put out they were not replaced by another one.

It sounds real old world - yet where I lived we had no electricity for the first 3 years after born. I can remember things like milk maids (and yes there really were milk maids then - there was no electricity so milking was by hand) carrying milk buckets in yokes. There was a local village milk delivery done by one farmer that way i.e. direct ex-cow. No doubt someone will be along in a minute to debate the pros and cons of consumption of unprocessed milk.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==

Though of course the continued use (or not) of horses for this kind of work had nothing to do with the railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==


After both wars there was a sudden influx not only of demobbed personnel who could drive, but also vehicles waiting to be driven.

I think we have now looped the loop on that point.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can just about remember horses in occasional use by small holder farmers in the villages I come from. And I am not /that/ old.

The real small holders i.e. those with a couple of fields and one tractor, there were 2 in my home village with horses, they were useful economic means say to move a couple of hay bales to a field or collect logs etc; they were not used for ploughing or tasks like that. ISTR as each horse died or put out they were not replaced by another one.

It sounds real old world - yet where I lived we had no electricity for the first 3 years after born. I can remember things like milk maids (and yes there really were milk maids then - there was no electricity so milking was by hand) carrying milk buckets in yokes. There was a local village milk delivery done by one farmer that way i.e. direct ex-cow. No doubt someone will be along in a minute to debate the pros and cons of consumption of unprocessed milk.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==


I think we have now looped the loop on that point.

Interesting post @D7666 - roughly what part of the country and what decade would those recollections be from?

I grew up in rural part of sussex but not a remote place, in the 1970s but I knew a local farmer, by then retired largely, but he told me that electricity only got put down our lane after ww2 when he modernised his milking parlours to run off electric. Come to think of it not sure if they put the electricity in to allow more modern milking / agricultural practice, or if he modernised his milking parlours because the Electricity Board wired up the lane. So I'm thinking this would have probably been c1947