Restriction 5K and Paddington gate line staff

[MagicalWill]

Hello,

I’ve had multiple bad experiences with the gateline staff at Paddington accusing me of trying to break the rules and telling me my ticket is not valid when travelling long distance - even when I’m sure it’s fine and I have checked the restriction code. Only after having to ask them multiple times to check the code do they check and let me through, with no apology from them for their baseless accusations of fraud etc. The most recent of these was a Whitby to Didcot super off peak single, code 1L.

One of these long distance journeys that I often do (and hence want to get confirmation) is DID->CBW and CBW->DID which has restriction code 5K. Can I confirm that 5K has no evening restrictions out of Paddington please on the return? Looking at the restriction code myself I’m a little confused because it references other codes, which then reference other codes etc.

On another note, is it worth actually complaining about the gate line staff at Paddington? From reading on this forum they seem notorious for this and have been for years…

Thanks!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

Hello,

I’ve had multiple bad experiences with the gateline staff at Paddington accusing me of trying to break the rules and telling me my ticket is not valid when travelling long distance - even when I’m sure it’s fine and I have checked the restriction code. Only after having to ask them multiple times to check the code do they check and let me through, with no apology from them for their baseless accusations of fraud etc. The most recent of these was a Whitby to Didcot super off peak single, code 1L.

One of these long distance journeys that I often do (and hence want to get confirmation) is DID->CBW and CBW->DID which has restriction code 5K. Can I confirm that 5K has no evening restrictions out of Paddington please on the return? Looking at the restriction code myself I’m a little confused because it references other codes, which then reference other codes etc.

On another note, is it worth actually complaining about the gate line staff at Paddington? From reading on this forum they seem notorious for this and have been for years…

Thanks!

I don't seem to be able to edit my post - so to clarify CBW = Canterbury West and DID = Didcot Parkway. Restriction codes are: nre.co.uk/5K and nre.co.uk/1L

 

[30907]

Hello,

I’ve had multiple bad experiences with the gateline staff at Paddington accusing me of trying to break the rules and telling me my ticket is not valid when travelling long distance - even when I’m sure it’s fine and I have checked the restriction code. Only after having to ask them multiple times to check the code do they check and let me through, with no apology from them for their baseless accusations of fraud etc. The most recent of these was a Whitby to Didcot super off peak single, code 1L.

One of these long distance journeys that I often do (and hence want to get confirmation) is DID->CBW and CBW->DID which has restriction code 5K. Can I confirm that 5K has no evening restrictions out of Paddington please on the return? Looking at the restriction code myself I’m a little confused because it references other codes, which then reference other codes etc.

On another note, is it worth actually complaining about the gate line staff at Paddington? From reading on this forum they seem notorious for this and have been for years…

Please do!

I don't seem to be able to edit my post - so to clarify CBW = Canterbury West and DID = Didcot Parkway. Restriction codes are: nre.co.uk/5K and nre.co.uk/1L

You are right on 5K - the problem (apart from staff training) is that the slightly cheaper Offpeak Day Return does have an evening restriction.
1L has a London Terminals evening restriction on the return, but yours is a single!

 

[OscarH]

On another note, is it worth actually complaining about the gate line staff at Paddington?

It can't hurt, so if you can bring yourself to do it (knowing you'll likely be hitting your head against a brick wall) then do.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

You are, quite honestly, wasting your time UNLESS you are prepared to put in a fair bit of effort in getting it before the Ombudsman (who are now sponsored by ORR).

The issue is if GWR offers you a satisfactory resolution at an early stage - you'd have to find a reason with how they handle your incident specifically before you can escalate.

The issues at these sorts of stations (Euston similar) is that the turnover of staff is extremely high, relatively low pay for their location and workload in comparison to other railway roles, and the fact that the vast majority (but by no means, all) of customers with off peak tickets etc at Paddington, Euston around these times will genuinely be invalid, reinforced by gate line logic that can't really be configured with the level of granularity necessary.

I do not doubt one bit that GWR do actually brief the staff regularly and provide the necessary training that covers this, and I'm pretty sure management do receive and review these complaints, but it's something far more ingrained at these locations that I'm not quite sure how you resolve it.

An anti-consumer legal claim may have legs, and would probably result in root and branch reform if one were won, but the issue is that despite the gate line staff complaining tickets aren't valid - they do normally allow people through without any additional fares being paid - so it would be difficult to prove that a consumers were being disadvantaged. Inconvenienced, yes, but rarely disadvantaged.

 

[OscarH]

You are, quite honestly, wasting your time UNLESS you are prepared to put in a fair bit of effort in getting it before the Ombudsman (who are now sponsored by ORR).

The issue is if GWR offers you a satisfactory resolution at an early stage - you'd have to find a reason with how they handle your incident specifically before you can escalate.

The issues at these sorts of stations (Euston similar) is that the turnover of staff is extremely high, relatively low pay for their location and workload in comparison to other railway roles, and the fact that the vast majority (but by no means, all) of customers with off peak tickets etc at Paddington, Euston around these times will genuinely be invalid, reinforced by gate line logic that can't really be configured with the level of granularity necessary.

I do not doubt one bit that GWR do actually brief the staff regularly and provide the necessary training that covers this, and I'm pretty sure management do receive and review these complaints, but it's something far more ingrained at these locations that I'm not quite sure how you resolve it.

An anti-consumer legal claim may have legs, and would probably result in root and branch reform if one were won, but the issue is that despite the gate line staff complaining tickets aren't valid - they do normally allow people through without any additional fares being paid - so it would be difficult to prove that a consumers were being disadvantaged. Inconvenienced, yes, but rarely disadvantaged.

I'm not sure staff turnover can have all the blame at Paddington - I'm sure we saw at one point a fully printed poster to wave their stick at when they saw something they didn't like. That kind of thing isn't done by your underpaid temporary gateline, the Paddington issue is deep rooted at a local management level in my opinion

 

[Hadders]

The issues at these sorts of stations (Euston similar) is that the turnover of staff is extremely high, relatively low pay for their location and workload in comparison to other railway roles, and the fact that the vast majority (but by no means, all) of customers with off peak tickets etc at Paddington, Euston around these times will genuinely be invalid, reinforced by gate line logic that can't really be configured with the level of granularity necessary.

You make some valid points but none of this is the passengers concern. This situation has existed for years at Paddington and nothing ever seems to change. Frankly, it is an unacceptable situation.

I do not doubt one bit that GWR do actually brief the staff regularly and provide the necessary training that covers this, and I'm pretty sure management do receive and review these complaints, but it's something far more ingrained at these locations that I'm not quite sure how you resolve it.

Then GWR management need to redouble their efforts. As you know every Off Peak ticket has a restriction code detailing when it is valid, the restrictions can be looked up in a matter of seconds. Despite this staff often refuse to look anything up and management often back-up the staff rather than discretely correcting them. And before anyone says that ticket restrictions are too complicated, they're really not - it's never been easier to look up a restriction. In one infamous incident a few years ago, gateline staff at Paddington falsely accused a forum meber with a perfectly valid ticket of having a gun in order to get BTP to attend.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Fifteen years ago I lived in Didcot and my newish girlfriend lived in Cambridge. Some weekends, she would get an Off Peak Return with a Young Person's railcard on a Friday afternoon, travel via King's Cross and Paddington, get stopped at the barriers with a perfectly valid ticket and had to fight the gateline staff, every single time.

Fast forward to 2024, we've been married 11 years, have two children at school, she hasn't qualified for that railcard for 10 years, in fact technically it hasn't existed for 15 years, I haven't lived in Didcot for 13 years and the gateline at Paddington are still stopping people on perfectly valid long distance tickets in the evening peak

 

[redreni]

An anti-consumer legal claim may have legs, and would probably result in root and branch reform if one were won, but the issue is that despite the gate line staff complaining tickets aren't valid - they do normally allow people through without any additional fares being paid - so it would be difficult to prove that a consumers were being disadvantaged. Inconvenienced, yes, but rarely disadvantaged.

You may be right, but it's difficult to know for sure, isn't it? We had an example only last week where somebody tried to pass through Paddington gateline with a valid ticket to Oxford and was sent to Marylebone, as a result of which they were severely delayed and had to pay an additional tube fare. So that's both inconvenient and disadvantageous as far as I can see. I got the distinct impression they found the experience quite upsetting and stressful.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this sort of thing happens dozens if not hundreds of times for every one occasion it happens to an existing forum member or to somebody who will be prepared to sign up as a forum member in order to tell us about it.

 

[Royston Vasey]

My view honestly is that they know exactly what they're doing and they're doing the job the managers want them to do. They resent off peak tickets set by other operators with restrictions mostly dating back to BR, that contradict the rules they have made up for themselves, crowding further their busy trains on inexpensive fares from which they get limited revenue.

I can only conclude after so long, that at a very high level, they're perfectly aware of this issue and they're happy for this bandit behaviour to perpetuate.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I do not doubt one bit that GWR do actually brief the staff regularly and provide the necessary training that covers this, and I'm pretty sure management do receive and review these complaints, but it's something far more ingrained at these locations that I'm not quite sure how you resolve it.

If you have new staff, why not instruct them that the eligibility of a ticket is a function of the restriction code rather than the classification of the train?

It has to be station management at some level who believe differently.

Alternatively tear up the rules at a national level about longer distance travel.

 

[TUC]

It speaks volumes about the poor quality of staff that it has never been easier for them to look up the restriction code for a given ticket, and yet they don't do it. That's not a training issue. It's basic competence.

 

[Kite159]

Some (potentially poorly trained) staff fall into a silo method of thinking 'this is a peak time train hence all off-peak tickets are not valid' without the concept that its not the train which is peak but the tickets a passenger holds.

Similar to the staff at Marylebone. Complain but I suspect you will get a fob off reply saying something like "we will issue a training brief" which probably won't reach the front line staff because 'the manager knows it better than central'

 

[redreni]

Some (potentially poorly trained) staff fall into a silo method of thinking 'this is a peak time train hence all off-peak tickets are not valid' without the concept that its not the train which is peak but the tickets a passenger holds.

Similar to the staff at Marylebone. Complain but I suspect you will get a fob off reply saying something like "we will issue a training brief" which probably won't reach the front line staff because 'the manager knows it better than central'

I realise, in theory at least, they receive training that tells them they have to check the restriction code to work out if an off-peak ticket is valid or not at a particular time, but in defence of the frontline staff, they do work on a concourse where every single announcement of every single departure between 4pm and 7pm has "Would customers please note that off-peak tickets are not valid on this service" appended to it. In a very authoritative 'announcer' voice. The departure boards also say this.

By my rough count there are 49 such departures on weekdays.

If you hear the same phrase 147 times a day (assuming each of those 49 trains gets announced three times), that evidently has some effect on some staff. Especially if they're not explicitly told (as I'm sure they're not) that the company is deliberately putting out this inaccurate information to customers because they don't want passengers with tickets that aren't valid purely because of an evening peak restriction to think they can board the train and pay the excess onboard (if presented with an opportunity to do so) or at their destination (if the facility to do so exists when they arrive). Even though that's a perfectly reasonable expectation passengers may have. And they don't care if that means somebody with a perfectly valid off-peak ticket mistakenly thinks it isn't valid so defers travel or pays an excess that isn't due or buys a new ticket or takes a different route.

If somebody is new and that isn't explained to them, then they're dealing with conflicting information and it's hardly surprising if some of them get it wrong. (I can't think of an excuse for the people who've been doing the job for donkeys years, though, who can sometimes be the most difficult people of all to deal with).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

where every single announcement of every single departure between 4pm and 7pm has "Would customers please note that off-peak tickets are not valid on this service" appended to it. In a very authoritative 'announcer' voice. The departure boards also say this.

Why would it not be possible to change "are not valid" to "may not be valid" on announcements etc?

Is it also the case that even if the ticket isn't valid on a "fast" service, it would be valid downstairs on a "slow" Elizabeth Line service provided it didn't also have a GWR only restriction?

 

[redreni]

Why would it not be possible to change "are not valid" to "may not be valid" on announcements etc?

I've no idea. Presumably it would. I guess they just don't want passengers asking them what 'may not be valid' means and wanting to know if their ticket is valid or not. As far as I can see that would be a good thing, however, as they could then check restriction codes for people and sell excesses where appropriate, which would address their apparent concern about such passengers being allowed to board the train when an excess is owed in case it is not then collected.

Is it also the case that even if the ticket isn't valid on a "fast" service, it would be valid downstairs on a "slow" Elizabeth Line service provided it didn't also have a GWR only restriction?

As far as tickets are concerned (PAYG is another matter), there are no tickets were evening peak restrictions apply on Elizabeth Line trains heading west out of Paddington as far as I know. But that's controlled by a different gateline, of course.

 

[Watershed]

there are no tickets were evening peak restrictions apply on Elizabeth Line trains heading west out of Paddington as far as I know. But that's controlled by a different gateline, of course.

There are some GWR-set fares that have blanket time restrictions applying to "trains departing" Paddington regardless of operator, e.g. their "via Taunton" Super Off-Peak Return from Exeter St Davids to London Terminals.

But in practice I agree that the Elizabeth line gateline is likely programmed to accept Off-Peak tickets in the evening. Being Cubic gates, my understanding is that they can't be configured to distinguish by destination for paper tickets - so they probably just program in something like Off-Peak tickets being valid from 09:30 onwards.

 

[MagicalWill]

So can I check about 5K - it's all a bit confusing because it says the following:
"Restriction Codes 7E and 9J apply to all journeys via London St Pancras International." so then I check codes 7E and 9J... and 7E has the following:
Details about restriction times for St Pancras, which I /will/ be travelling via and...
"Journeys to London Paddington please use restrictions, 4N, 5K, GK, LC, LD, WH, WV, WX.
If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed above or Peterborough, see restriction code 2V" - does that mean I need to check all the Paddington restriction codes as well (and go in a loop) - or because I'm going VIA rather than TO (final destination) Paddington that does not apply to me?

 

[bakerstreet]

So can I check about 5K - it's all a bit confusing because it says the following:
"Restriction Codes 7E and 9J apply to all journeys via London St Pancras International." so then I check codes 7E and 9J... and 7E has the following:
Details about restriction times for St Pancras, which I /will/ be travelling via and...
"Journeys to London Paddington please use restrictions, 4N, 5K, GK, LC, LD, WH, WV, WX.
If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed above or Peterborough, see restriction code 2V" - does that mean I need to check all the Paddington restriction codes as well (and go in a loop) - or because I'm going VIA rather than TO (final destination) Paddington that does not apply to me?

I have a headache

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So can I check about 5K - it's all a bit confusing because it says the following:
"Restriction Codes 7E and 9J apply to all journeys via London St Pancras International." so then I check codes 7E and 9J... and 7E has the following:
Details about restriction times for St Pancras, which I /will/ be travelling via and...
"Journeys to London Paddington please use restrictions, 4N, 5K, GK, LC, LD, WH, WV, WX.
If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed above or Peterborough, see restriction code 2V" - does that mean I need to check all the Paddington restriction codes as well (and go in a loop) - or because I'm going VIA rather than TO (final destination) Paddington that does not apply to me?

Although not binding, it's often a good indication to see how a TOC intends a ticket to be valid by looking at the electronic restriction data, rather than the text:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

 

[redreni]

Although not binding, it's often a good indication to see how a TOC intends a ticket to be valid by looking at the electronic restriction data, rather than the text:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

In terms of what is binding, though, I'm not sure I'm convinced a clause like "please use restriction 4N, 5K, GK, LC, LD, WH, WV, Wx" necessarily succeeds in establishing any restriction on the use of the ticket at all.

The reference in 5K to 7E and 9J establishes that where 5K applies, 7E and 9J also apply. But the phrase "please use" seems wholly ambiguous, as does "see restriction code 2V".

The conditions under which these requests (and they are only requests) to "use" or "see" another restriction code apply are also quite ambiguous. It really doesn't strike me as the language of a binding contractual term. And of course, if a term is gobbledygook, the ambiguity goes in favour of the consumer.

My approach would be to assume it's fine if I am travelling on an itinerary against which the ticket was sold to me, irrespective of what the restrictions say. If I couldn't generate an itinerary for the journey I wanted to make that would ring alarm bells and I would do what you've done and tap into the collective wisdom of this forum. Ultimately, however, if the restriction is utter gobbledygook then I don't see how it can restrict you from using a ticket that appears to be valid. Which doesn't mean you won't encounter problems, of course.

I would, however, expect Paddington high level gateline to create problems for anyone trying to use an off-peak ticket to pass through the gates to catch a train that leaves between 16:00 and 19:00 whatever the ticket restrictions say, and to seize on any ambiguity in the ticket restrictions (if you can persuade them to look at the ticket restrictions) to tell you your ticket isn't valid. But your mileage may vary.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

[deleted]

 

[Adam Williams]

the issue is that despite the gate line staff complaining tickets aren't valid - they do normally allow people through without any additional fares being paid

How I wish this was true (it's not).