Notice of intended prosecution

[Chilttraveller]

Hello, I'm looking for some support please.

In March I boarded a train from Haddenham to Marylebone and attempted to purchase my ticket on the Chiltern Railways app. It was for the exact train I was on and I got to the payment transaction page, pressed pay but the transaction did not get processed. The screen kept returning to the pay now screen, but which point the train had departed the station. I tried again but same issue. I managed to purchase the full price ticket eventually and then an inspector came to check tickets.

When checking he informed me that he knew the ticket I purchased had only just been bought so I explained what happened but he asked for my ID and informed me I could expect to hear from them in a few weeks.

Today I got a letter from the fraud and prosecutions lead informing me that they intend to prosecute. Feels quite a threatening letter referring to the Railway Bylaws act etc and I could really do without any hassle.

I have 14 days to submit mitigation I would like them to consider.

I would liked to know what I should submit and how I can nip it in the bud. I should have a copy of the ticket on my emails somewhere but no really evidence of the transaction issue.

Thanks in advance.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you post the letter onto this thread please, to help us to advise you? Cover up your name, address and their reference number.

 

[Chilttraveller]

Thank you

 

[MichaelAMW]

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but what is the legal problem with purchasing a ticket after starting your journey?

I have always understood that the bye laws require you to hand over a ticket when requested and that the Regulation of Railways Act has two relevant parts: (i) When you are asked you must either hand over a ticket showing you've paid your fare or pay your fare or give your name and address; and (ii) It's an offence to enter a train for the purpose of travelling without having previously paid your fare and with intent to avoid paying it.

The OP doesn't seem to have infringed any of these.

I can see that the 'pay when challenged' brigade, who quickly buy a ticket when they see someone coming, may well have demonstrated intent to avoid payment. However, if you get on and buy a ticket immediately, i.e. before you are challenged, then what is the problem? I guess the answer is that I'm missing something, in which case please enlighten me!

 

[CyrusWuff]

One of the hurdles you need to overcome is that Haddenham & Thame Parkway has both a Ticket Office which is supposed to be open from 0620 to 1920 on weekdays, as well as two Ticket Machines.

Given the station doesn’t have ticket barriers, from Chiltern's point of view it will look like you only bought a ticket because you saw the Ticket Inspector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but what is the legal problem with purchasing a ticket after starting your journey?

Boarding a train without a valid ticket when there was an opportunity to buy one is a breach of Railway Byelaw 18.1:

18.1. In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

[Cantab26]

I guess the answer is that I'm missing something, in which case please enlighten me!

You are missing something: have a look at Byelaw 18(1).

 

[Chilttraveller]

Yes I accept that I should have had a ticket before boarding, I usually get one on the platform as I don't always get the same train.

The ticket should show it was for the train I boarded i.e. the 0817 but would have been actually purchased around 0827 or something like that. I accept I was basically in the wrong.

To be honest, I'm happy to pay a fine to make it go away, I'd just like to know how to move it to that point before they proceed with prosecution.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes I accept that I should have had a ticket before boarding, I usually get one on the platform as I don't always get the same train.

The ticket should show it was for the train I boarded i.e. the 0817 but would have been actually purchased around 0827 or something like that. I accept I was basically in the wrong.

To be honest, I'm happy to pay a fine to make it go away, I'd just like to know how to move it to that point before they proceed with prosecution.

As has been discussed, you committed a byelaw 18(1) offence by getting on the train to travel without a ticket*. So if the railway take you to court, you will be convicted and will have to pay a fine*.

Fortunately, the railway have not (yet) said that they will prosecute you. They've asked for your side of the story. So this is your chance to apologise and make it clear that you won't offend again. @Hadders has some excellent advice on what to say: they may be along shortly to give you a tailored version, or you can find it in other threads on this forum.

Much of the time, many railway companies will let people in your position settle the matter out of court by paying the train fare that should have been paid plus the cost of investigating the matter (typically £150 or so). Until recently, Chiltern used an agent called Transport Investigations Ltd for cases like yours, and settling out of court was quite difficult. But they now seem to have brought the work back in house and we don't know what attitude they take. I would guess (but don't know) that they will be willing to settle - so it's worth writing to them to find out. A good suggestion often given is that if you post a draft in this thread then people will suggest improvements if necessary.

*Slightly simplified but I think covering the facts in this case.

 

[Hadders]

I suggest writing a short, concise letter mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

I expect Chiltern will offer you an out of court settlement as mentioned above. If you post a copy of your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Chilttraveller]

Thank you I will draft as suggested and share for comment. Many thanks for your swift assistance. Much appreciated

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes I accept that I should have had a ticket before boarding, I usually get one on the platform as I don't always get the same train.

The ticket should show it was for the train I boarded i.e. the 0817 but would have been actually purchased around 0827 or something like that. I accept I was basically in the wrong.

To be honest, I'm happy to pay a fine to make it go away, I'd just like to know how to move it to that point before they proceed with prosecution.

Why do you get the ticket at the last minute "because you don't know which train you'll get"? That doesn't make sense as an explanation, and saying that will surely make the railway company suspicious. Presumably any regular ticket for that journey (except for peak/off-peak differences) is valid on any train? You don't need to get different tickets for different trains - the tickets aren't train-specific. If you know in advance what days you're travelling, you could buy the tickets any time ahead, providing they were dated for the right day.

 

[WesternLancer]

Why do you get the ticket at the last minute "because you don't know which train you'll get"? That doesn't make sense as an explanation, and saying that will surely make the railway company suspicious. Presumably any regular ticket for that journey (except for peak/off-peak differences) is valid on any train? You don't need to get different tickets for different trains - the tickets aren't train-specific. If you know in advance what days you're travelling, you could buy the tickets any time ahead, providing they were dated for the right day.

But it does not help that railway companies do their best to make people think they have to have ticket for a specific train. Many people believe this is the case and ticket buying websites operate in a way that makes people presume this.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@AlbertBeale has a point. If the train boarded was the 0817 from Haddenham and Thame Parkway and the journey was to London Marylebone, (arriving at or around 0909 on a Thursday, so not an off-peak journey), what tickets are there to buy apart from Anytime Day Single or an Anytime Day Return (or an Anytime Day Travelcard)?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Presumably the OP is implying that they sometimes start their journey after the peak, so they pay less? Not an uncommon situation in the post-Covid world.

As others no doubt will also advise, I would suggest the OP steer off the 'app was slow that day' argument. As noted, on this route, one has to have a ticket before boarding the train since ticket facilities exist so, if no ticket has actually been bought by the time the train goes, one must wait for the next one. That's how it works... App problems will cut little ice with Chiltern when they review whether to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[Chilttraveller]

Why do you get the ticket at the last minute "because you don't know which train you'll get"? That doesn't make sense as an explanation, and saying that will surely make the railway company suspicious. Presumably any regular ticket for that journey (except for peak/off-peak differences) is valid on any train? You don't need to get different tickets for different trains - the tickets aren't train-specific. If you know in advance what days you're travelling, you could buy the tickets any time ahead, providing they were dated for the right day.

When you buy a ticket in the app, you are forced to select a specific train, or at least this is how it appears with in the app. Yes you can buy an anytime ticket at the ticket machine but it's on a different platform, so the easiest option for me is to use the app. A little disorganised perhaps but I've learnt my lesson.

You obviously can't buy for a specific train once the train had departed as I presume it comes off the list of options. In this case, I genuinely had the ticket in my basket, which I couldn't have done if I didn't attempt to purchase it before the train had departed. I doubt they will accept any mitigation but one would hope they would take out of court as the cheaper and easier option.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Chilttraveller. Thanks for clarifying. Assuming Haddenham & Thame Parkway is your 'home' station, presume inspection of your online ticket purchasing history won't show any instances in the past of you having purchased tickets for journeys to/from London Marylebone from a station much nearer to London than Haddenham & Thame Parkway, such as, for example, High Wycombe or perhaps Wembley Stadium?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

When you buy a ticket in the app, you are forced to select a specific train, or at least this is how it appears with in the app.

I have always supposed that provided the resulting ticket was valid for the train actually caught, that you could give the ticket buying program any old time. There is not to my knowledge any requirement to disclose an itinerary when showing a ticket. But that's with paper tickets. Is it different with electronic ones?

 

[Chilttraveller]

@Chilttraveller. Thanks for clarifying. Assuming Haddenham & Thame Parkway is your 'home' station, presume inspection of your online ticket purchasing history won't show any instances in the past of you having purchased tickets for journeys to/from London Marylebone from a station much nearer to London than Haddenham & Thame Parkway, such as, for example, High Wycombe or perhaps Wembley Stadium?

I confess that they would, in this instance the version of events is as I have described but I had a period where I idiotically bought tickets from a closer station. How likely are they to investigate further? Would you advise seeking legal advice i.e. am I likely to be in a lot more trouble than they are letting on here?

 

[John R]

I confess that they would, in this instance the version of events is as I have described but I had a period where I idiotically bought tickets from a closer station. How likely are they to investigate further? Would you advise seeking legal advice i.e. am I likely to be in a lot more trouble than they are letting on here?

They will almost certainly investigate prior purchases, and any out of court settlement is likely to reflect those journeys, based on the Anytime Single Fare from Haddenham (two for each return journey).

 

[Haywain]

In this case, I genuinely had the ticket in my basket, which I couldn't have done if I didn't attempt to purchase it before the train had departed.

The problem for you is that this is something that a "pay when challenged" fare dodger might do.

 

[John R]

The problem for you is that this is something that a "pay when challenged" fare dodger might do.

Even more of a problem as the OP has admitted in #18 that they have a track record of doing just that, and Chiltern will easily see that.

 

[AlterEgo]

I confess that they would, in this instance the version of events is as I have described but I had a period where I idiotically bought tickets from a closer station. How likely are they to investigate further? Would you advise seeking legal advice i.e. am I likely to be in a lot more trouble than they are letting on here?

You shouldn't need legal advice but it is likely Chiltern will uncover these short tickets. It'll be the first thing they look for when passengers have been caught purchasing after departure (often because they are actually "paying when challenged").

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==

The problem for you is that this is something that a "pay when challenged" fare dodger might do.

Precisely.

 

[Chilttraveller]

You shouldn't need legal advice but it is likely Chiltern will uncover these short tickets. It'll be the first thing they look for when passengers have been caught purchasing after departure (often because they are actually "paying when challenged").

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==


Precisely.

Okay thank you. The short ticket evasion was such a stupid thing to do, I don't have any 'good' excuses for it other than the financial pressures we all face.

Is it recommended that I still write to them in relation to this incident, accept fault and offer to pay fare and admin costs? I can probably also calculate what I would owe for the period of evasion. Do I confront that head on?

As you will appreciate, I would not want a criminal record for this stupidity, outside of this I'm a decent human being and happy to compensate the company for what I've done wrong, I just didn't think through my actions.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is it recommended that I still write to them in relation to this incident, accept fault and offer to pay fare and admin costs? I can probably also calculate what I would owe for the period of evasion. Do I confront that head on?

Yes.

What we generally see is that people who engage with the process often get offered out of court settlements: people who ignore it and hope it will go away are almost invariably taken to court. So while we can't guarantee an out of court settlement by you responding to the railway, we can be pretty certain that if you don't contact them, then this will end up in court - and on the basis of what you have told us about this incident, you will be convicted. Essentially, everything says that you should engage with them as that maximises your chances of resolving things without the court being involved.

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay thank you. The short ticket evasion was such a stupid thing to do, I don't have any 'good' excuses for it other than the financial pressures we all face.

Is it recommended that I still write to them in relation to this incident, accept fault and offer to pay fare and admin costs? I can probably also calculate what I would owe for the period of evasion. Do I confront that head on?

As you will appreciate, I would not want a criminal record for this stupidity, outside of this I'm a decent human being and happy to compensate the company for what I've done wrong, I just didn't think through my actions.

They haven't asked about any other incidents in their letter, so you should not address any incident other than the one which caused the "stop" at this stage. They may write to you again though.

 

[AlbertBeale]

When you buy a ticket in the app, you are forced to select a specific train, or at least this is how it appears with in the app. Yes you can buy an anytime ticket at the ticket machine but it's on a different platform, so the easiest option for me is to use the app. A little disorganised perhaps but I've learnt my lesson.

You obviously can't buy for a specific train once the train had departed as I presume it comes off the list of options. In this case, I genuinely had the ticket in my basket, which I couldn't have done if I didn't attempt to purchase it before the train had departed. I doubt they will accept any mitigation but one would hope they would take out of court as the cheaper and easier option.

If, when buying in the app, you're forced to select a specific train, even if the tickets offered aren't actually train-specific and you have no reason to want a train-specific ticket, then I'd consider the app unfit for purpose; personally I'd never use such a system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==

But it does not help that railway companies do their best to make people think they have to have ticket for a specific train. Many people believe this is the case and ticket buying websites operate in a way that makes people presume this.

So - a good reason not to use such websites! (Surely this makes websites operating like this misleading and in breach of consumer law?)

 

[WesternLancer]

If, when buying in the app, you're forced to select a specific train, even if the tickets offered aren't actually train-specific and you have no reason to want a train-specific ticket, then I'd consider the app unfit for purpose; personally I'd never use such a system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==



So - a good reason not to use such websites! (Surely this makes websites operating like this misleading and in breach of consumer law?)

Indeed you and I know not to use them. It’s not common knowledge however.

 

[island]

In March I boarded a train from Haddenham to Marylebone and attempted to purchase my ticket on the Chiltern Railways app. It was for the exact train I was on and I got to the payment transaction page, pressed pay but the transaction did not get processed.

Why didn't you buy a ticket from ticket office or machines at H&T Parkway?

 

[DaveMcDave]

I am in a remarkably similar situation, and would appreciate any updates from the OP on how things have gone/are going...

 

[John R]

I am in a remarkably similar situation, and would appreciate any updates from the OP on how things have gone/are going.

I've asked that this is moved to a new thread, as the forum has a rule of one case per thread to avoid confusing things. Perhaps once it is moved you could let us know what the current position is - ie are you awaiting a response to your letter?