ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

[Starmill]

Did the TfW deal not include what looked like good increases in pay.
Sadly some my colleagues on scotrails eyes lit up when scotrail wanted to talk about sunday part of the working, some can't see passed the money unfortunately despite handing back so much in tax.

Yes. That's the point though, you always end up with the people who do the most, or near the most, overtime permitted by hours rules (at least outside of any industrial action) getting a lower gross pay than otherwise, despite the better rate per hour equivalent in the basic salary. As such there's always a controversial element.

However as others have said this isn't really the sticking point here is it - the sticking point is the real rate on offer for a no-changes deal is still negative. Scot Gov pay policy is essentially to very slightly reduce real wages since last year.

 

[Christmas]

If Transport Scotland tables an additional week's annual leave then they might get somewhere.
ASLEF are now going to ballot for strike action and action short of a strike.

The ScotRail Twitter team are taking a hammering from irate passengers thanks to the shambolic emergency timetable.

Trains finishing early when drivers are booked to work until the small hours is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[380101]

Regarding Sunday as part of the working week, aren't some workers contracted to 13 Sundays per year, so any rise in pay coud be just for those 13 Sundays?

ScotRail drivers have contracted Sundays but if Sunday was brought into the working week it would be a change of terms and conditions. Likelihood is that drivers would work more Sundays if it became part of the working week.

Whatever deal eventually happens to bring Sundays in, it will have to ensure no loss of earnings and undoubtedly have an additional monetary uplift to persuade drivers to vote for it. If you just incorporate Sundays into the working week with no incentives, then drivers will not vote for it.

 

[baza585]

The biggest (planned at time of writing!) gap I can see for Neilston today, Sunday, is two hours, a couple of times, which is still desperately poor for what is normally a half-hourly service. Maybe Drivers have taken the day off to support Spain in the Euros Final, as per the imprecations of our delightful National newspaper - What, if anything, are they saying about the situation, I wonder.

More to the point, what if anything have John Swinney or Fiona Hyslop said?

They are very quiet on the subject, aren't they.

Imagine the brouhaha if one of the English based TOCs implemented this level of cuts.

Nationalisation solves nothing on its own. ScotRail is daily proof!

 

[Class83]

They are very quiet on the subject, aren't they.

Imagine the brouhaha if one of the English based TOCs implemented this level of cuts.

Nationalisation solves nothing on its own. ScotRail is daily proof!

Indeed, need to clarify what level of subsidy the government is willing to pay and what level of fares passengers are willing to pay, that then gives the level of service which can be provided.

Beyond that look at increased use of technology to reduce ticketing costs. Maximizing revenue through yield management, revenue protection and increasing ancillary revenue such as catering. Efficiencies such as fewer, longer trains, DOO on commuter routes. A rolling stock strategy which delivers reliable, but not too expensive, fuel efficient trains.

 

[Bill57p9]

Beyond that look at increased use of technology to reduce ticketing costs. Maximizing revenue through yield management, revenue protection and increasing ancillary revenue such as catering. Efficiencies such as fewer, longer trains, DOO on commuter routes. A rolling stock strategy which delivers reliable, but not too expensive, fuel efficient trains.

Such as East Kilbride and Barrhead??

 

[Christmas]

Indeed, need to clarify what level of subsidy the government is willing to pay and what level of fares passengers are willing to pay, that then gives the level of service which can be provided.

Beyond that look at increased use of technology to reduce ticketing costs. Maximizing revenue through yield management, revenue protection and increasing ancillary revenue such as catering. Efficiencies such as fewer, longer trains, DOO on commuter routes. A rolling stock strategy which delivers reliable, but not too expensive, fuel efficient trains.

I don't agree with that. Passengers don't want to wait an hour for a long train when they might have a half hourly frequency using a single unit.

 

[Peter0124]

I don't agree with that. Passengers don't want to wait an hour for a long train when they might have a half hourly frequency using a single unit.

Especially on suburban services like the Argyle Line

 

[hibtastic]

Tomorrow looks particularly dire.

Two hourly gap between 1100 and 1300 on the Edinburgh to Glasgow, Fife services looking to be sporadic with Leven only getting 6 services (1017, 1217, 1417, 1817, 1915 and 2216).

Tweedbank has a four hour gap in the evenings with the line via Dunfermline City only getting 4 trains towards Glenrothes with 5 towards Edinburgh.

It’s shocking that things have gotten this bad.

Only one ScotRail Dunbar service per day which means East Linton only has its six TPE services per day (to Edinburgh) with some huge gaps. Not ideal at all.

 

[najaB]

I don't agree with that. Passengers don't want to wait an hour for a long train when they might have a half hourly frequency using a single unit.

But are passengers willing to pay (either at the farebox or through taxes) for that more frequent service?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Only one ScotRail Dunbar service per day which means East Linton only has its six TPE services per day (to Edinburgh) with some huge gaps. Not ideal at all.

East Linton having such a bad service is largely a legacy of opening a service prior to the East Coast Mainline recast, which should have been in place prior to its opening. Same issue exists at Reston.

These TPE’s shouldn’t even need to exist, but that’s a discussion for another thread.


One thing I’ve failed to understand is the short forming that’s resulted from this temporary timetable. A large chunk of the services running appear to be half the length they normally are, which I can’t understand at all?

 

[GordonT]

East Linton having such a bad service is largely a legacy of opening a service prior to the East Coast Mainline recast, which should have been in place prior to its opening. Same issue exists at Reston.

These TPE’s shouldn’t even need to exist, but that’s a discussion for another thread.


One thing I’ve failed to understand is the short forming that’s resulted from this temporary timetable. A large chunk of the services running appear to be half the length they normally are, which I can’t understand at all?

Could it be that by avoiding tieing up drivers on tieing up sets across the board (and possibly then having to split them towards end of shift) you get slightly fewer cancellations? Other factors probably include the greater availability of drivers who can, for example, work a 158 or 170 turn compared to an HST.

 

[snookertam]

I don't agree with that. Passengers don't want to wait an hour for a long train when they might have a half hourly frequency using a single unit.

This was the thinking behind increasing frequencies throughout the period between 1999 and now. The idea was that increased frequencies were needed to have any hope with competing with the car, as people who had access to one were less likely to tolerate longer waits for a train.

This is likely still the case, but there is also probably a ceiling as to how much modal shift is possible even with increased frequency of service, particularly outside of the central belt.

 

[Leven Railuser]

The extra services being added to help with the Open Championship in Troon has gone down like a lead balloon on social media.
Commuters/regulars are very frustrated.

 

[najaB]

The extra services being added to help with the Open Championship in Troon has gone down like a lead balloon on social media.
Commuters/regulars are very frustrated.

The phrase "Damned if you, damned if you don't." comes to mind.

 

[swaldman]

The extra services being added to help with the Open Championship in Troon has gone down like a lead balloon on social media.
Commuters/regulars are very frustrated.

It's not just the commuters. It's Scotrail deciding that the golf merits extra trains, but the music festival last weekend didn't, and the football next weekend doesn't.... there may be good reasons for this choice, but in the absence of explanation it reeks of establishment thinking.

 

[najaB]

It's Scotrail deciding that the golf merits extra trains, but the music festival last weekend didn't...

I thought that they had planned services but they fell through on the day?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Could it be that by avoiding tieing up drivers on tieing up sets across the board (and possibly then having to split them towards end of shift) you get slightly fewer cancellations? Other factors probably include the greater availability of drivers who can, for example, work a 158 or 170 turn compared to an HST.

East Linton having such a bad service is largely a legacy of opening a service prior to the East Coast Mainline recast, which should have been in place prior to its opening. Same issue exists at Reston.

These TPE’s shouldn’t even need to exist, but that’s a discussion for another thread.


One thing I’ve failed to understand is the short forming that’s resulted from this temporary timetable. A large chunk of the services running appear to be half the length they normally are, which I can’t understand at all?

Whilst you can see in the daily alteralions which passenger services are cancelled - you can't see which ECS moves on/off depot are cancelled also on these Driver's diagrams.
This would explain some short-formations as services are split to provide a unit for the next leg of a unit diagram where the inward service is cancelled but not the outbound.

E.G: a 6-car 170 is split to form two services each of 3-cars as there is nobody to fetch the original set from the depot.

It's also why there are so many cancellations as some services have to be sacrificed to provide a Driver to either dispose or fetch a set from the depot.
It's just not possible to leave units from cancelled services lying around in terminal stations.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Whilst you can see in the daily alteralions which passenger services are cancelled - you can't see which ECS moves on/off depot are cancelled also on these Driver's diagrams.
This would explain some short-formations as services are split to provide a unit for the next leg of a unit diagram where the inward service is cancelled but not the outbound.

E.G: a 6-car 170 is split to form two services each of 3-cars as there is nobody to fetch the original set from the depot.

It's also why there are so many cancellations as some services have to be sacrificed to provide a Driver to either dispose or fetch a set from the depot.
It's just not possible to leave units from cancelled services lying around in terminal stations.

That part I can understand, but there are services that don’t have split/attaches in their diagrams that are now being intentionally short formed, ie now booked as less. It’s poor planning. The unit diagrams where possible should have been altered to factor this in.

Yesterday for example the HST failed for 1H17, which resulted in a single 158 being used. The claim I was told at the time was that this was the only set ready for traffic, so there are depot shunt problems as well. That I can fully understand. However, could there have been a 170 sat in Waverley that could’ve done that Inverness with the 158 doing a Cowdenbeath/Glenrothes? Who knows. 1H17’s diagram finishes at Haymarket anyway though. I just don’t believe ScotRail are using the fleet in the most efficient way at the moment, but I respect there are bound to be issues with the attaches/detaches.

These golf extras for The Open I guess unsurprisingly have gone down terribly with the public in areas that have been hit badly by these issues. Obviously Joe Public doesn’t see what we are all talking about. To them a train is a train. I think the ability to run these though is more down to the fact that the bigger gaps are elsewhere and the West Coast isn’t quite as bad for the gaps of drivers, but still not great.

 

[SC318250]

The extra services being provided between Glasgow Central and Troon/Ayr, some are replacing Glasgow Central to Ardrossan Harbour/Largs services, and others are addition shuttle services. Largs and Ardrossan services start and terminate t Kilwinning.
There will be more Corkerhill drivers available for the next few days as East Kilbride services are replaced by buses due to engineering work

 

[Dfatcontroller]

That part I can understand, but there are services that don’t have split/attaches in their diagrams that are now being intentionally short formed, ie now booked as less. It’s poor planning. The unit diagrams where possible should have been altered to factor this in.

Yesterday for example the HST failed for 1H17, which resulted in a single 158 being used. The claim I was told at the time was that this was the only set ready for traffic, so there are depot shunt problems as well. That I can fully understand. However, could there have been a 170 sat in Waverley that could’ve done that Inverness with the 158 doing a Cowdenbeath/Glenrothes? Who knows. 1H17’s diagram finishes at Haymarket anyway though. I just don’t believe ScotRail are using the fleet in the most efficient way at the moment, but I respect there are bound to be issues with the attaches/detaches.

These golf extras for The Open I guess unsurprisingly have gone down terribly with the public in areas that have been hit badly by these issues. Obviously Joe Public doesn’t see what we are all talking about. To them a train is a train. I think the ability to run these though is more down to the fact that the bigger gaps are elsewhere and the West Coast isn’t quite as bad for the gaps of drivers, but still not great.

The only available unit at HA for 5H17 was a 158.
Everything else that had arrived was either already back out, failed, or undergoing fuel and servicing.

 

[Scotrail84]

The only available unit at HA for 5H17 was a 158.
Everything else that had arrived was either already back out, failed, or undergoing fuel and servicing.

A single 158 on an Edinburgh to Inverness service is poor, been happening quite a lot recently but I still say it's better that than cancelling the service completely.

 

[SC318250]

Slightly off topic

Barrhead services today now 3 car 380

0600 Glasgow Central to Ayr 4 car service, standing room only leaving Glasgow, passengers unable to get on at Kilwinning… was like a sardine can with golf fans

 

[MadCommuter]

What are rostered ticket examiners doing instead when their services are cancelled?

Getting home from Glasgow last Sunday was dire. We weren't at TRNSMT but at another pre booked event. We knew there would be issues but got lucky with a taxi.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The only available unit at HA for 5H17 was a 158.
Everything else that had arrived was either already back out, failed, or undergoing fuel and servicing.

Yes, that’s what I said. My point was might there have been a 170 sat in Waverley that could’ve been set swapped?

 

[Scotrail84]

Yes, that’s what I said. My point was might there have been a 170 sat in Waverley that could’ve been set swapped?

Its not as easy as tha though, even if there was a 170 to swap it might not have had the fuel to get it to Inverness and back, or it might have been due an exam at the close of service so it might have been out of place for that. There's lots of things to consider before units can be 'swapped'

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Yes, that’s what I said. My point was might there have been a 170 sat in Waverley that could’ve been set swapped?

You also said "so there are depot shunt problems as well".
No there isn't. It was the only set available on depot. Whether it could have been subsequently swapped in Edinburgh is a different matter entirely.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

T

You also said "so there are depot shunt problems as well".
No there isn't. It was the only set available on depot. Whether it could have been subsequently swapped in Edinburgh is a different matter entirely.

Thats not a good advert for Scotrail which despite high investment from public purse still can't deliver a reliable service.

 

[najaB]

Tats not a good advert for Scotrail which despite high investment from public purse still can't deliver a reliable service.

The dependency on rest day working/overtime pre-dates the change in management.

 

[Carntyne]

The dependency on rest day working/overtime pre-dates the change in management.

It's the same middle managers who've been there for decades running the show. A new name above the door doesn't change that.