Dartmouth Steam Railway

[SwindonManor]

The DSR is fully signalled but the strange thing is Sands Road level crossing is operated at the crossing by someone GWR or DSR coming to the crossing from Paignton and manually pressing the buttons.

I think it was of the reasons GWR prefer to shunt a train back and forth over the Torbay Road crossing and only use the coach sidings for the 800s. A Cross Country train also shunts from platform 1 to 2 in the evening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

The local MP at the time when MP's were asked about opening railways in their area suggested extending the mainline to Goodrington.

The problem with railways in this location is the No 12 bus running very frequently and the 120 hourly to Kingswear only taking 25 minutes; admittedly you have to walk down to the ferry from the banjo to get the ferries. While the £2 bus fare remains it is almost impossible for a railway to compete.

I did read about this and they could share the sidings and build a new station in that area that is abandoned at Goodrington.

 

[Belperpete]

A few straw men there. I was merely replying to an assertion that the snowdon railway falls into the category 'preserved railways'. It clearly doesnt.

You are going to have to explain why it "clearly doesn't", as it isn't clear to me. I would say that the SMR has preserved far more of its heritage than a lot of other preserved railways have. Starting with all those preserved branch-lines that have main-line express passenger engines running over them, for example.

 

[MarkyT]

I did read about this and they could share the sidings and build a new station in that area that is abandoned at Goodrington.

A GWR extension only to Goodrington could be quite straightforward. DSR would give up the rarely used west side platform and the nearest NR carriage siding to the DSR line would be converted to a passenger line terminating at a bufferstop in the vacated platform. That could provide a useful place for car bourne customers to park and board a local train rather than driving into Paignton where traffic can be problematic and parking provision is diminishing. Parking in the vicinity of Goodrington station could be shared with the DSR and no step walkways provided to both platforms for access. DSR would continue to operate into Paignton as now.

 

[Belperpete]

Rather than all the complexities involved in operating GWR services over the DSR, it would be far simpler to just have the DSR run some extra DMU services of their own over their own line.

Musing further on this, rather than paint up a dmu in faux GWR livery, the ideal solution would be to use a real historic GWR railcar. I seem to recall that the SVR spent a lot of money restoring one, which then saw very little use, and was looking very forlorn and decrepit, mouldering away in a siding, the last time I saw it.

 

[simonw]

You are going to have to explain why it "clearly doesn't", as it isn't clear to me. I would say that the SMR has preserved far more of its heritage than a lot of other preserved railways have. Starting with all those preserved branch-lines that have main-line express passenger engines running over them, for example.

I don't have to do anything for you.

 

[Iskra]

Err, the SMR rarely operates steam, but is busy. The Manx electric. The Hollentalbahn.

As you say, the SMR is a tourist attraction in its own right. Most people don't come for the steam. And I would say the same applies to most if not all other preserved railways too. Most non-enthusiasts just come for the train ride, steam is just the icing on the cake. This is surely true of the Dartmouth line, which is an attraction in its own right, in a major tourist area. I think they might see a slight drop in custom if they changed to diesel, but that would be more than offset by the savings they would make.

You say people will always be prepared to pay for steam. I think that you are burying your head in the sand. The question is how much. £50? £100? £500? The cost of coal has skyrocketed recently, and is seriously impacting on the viability of many preserved railways. The NYMR, for example, has been running at a substantial loss for the last couple of years. If preserved railways are to survive, they are going to have to charge prices that reflect their costs, and it now costs significantly more to run a steam loco than it did just a couple of years ago. As I said, people are already jibbing at the prices that the NYMR are charging, and they are not even breaking even.

The SMR now charges a substantial premium to travel on its steam services. Most people prefer not to pay the premium, and are happy to travel behind a diesel. I think other preserved railways are going to be following this example, sooner or later. Hopefully before they go bust.

As already mentioned, the SMR steam services are sold out for months... The Manx electric operates in a vacuum with limited competition for things to do and also provides public transport. The Hollentalbahn is hardly relevant to UK preservation and the fact that you can actually only name one railway on the UK mainland and are bringing up an example from Germany speaks volumes!

I really think that you are allowing your personal preferences of traction to prevent you from viewing the subject objectively. Steam is overwhelmingly more popular than diesel and there is often great discontent when diesel appears instead of steam, and a lack of footfall where diesel is advertised compared to when steam is running. Steam simply has a greater mass appeal and there are many posts within this subforum that evidence that. Please note that I am not saying this because I am a steam fan, I can appreciate both and probably have a slight preference for classic diesels, but I can see the wood for the trees. Prices are going up, but steam dining trains often still sell-out on the mainline at eye-watering prices... The coal prices can't be that bad though considering that I recently had a Vintage Trains railtour with a Castle at the helm from Derby to Stratford-Upon-Avon and return for a mere £40. The media reporting on the NYMR's accounts was extremely alarmist and a much more sensible picture was reported on this forum in the relevant thread, where the NYMR's financial situation looked a lot more reasonable. The NYMR thread also has reports of people complaining about how busy the trains are, so clearly the pricing isn't a problem and on my own visits this year, the trains have been busy. The NYMR accounts posted, are also not from the same reporting period as this this years prices, so that isn't a valid argument to say they aren't breaking even at this years prices because we simply don't know that yet! It has also been reported on here by preservationists, that coal prices are now stabilising.

Well any that go down a diesel-only route are only going to multiply their problems, rather than solve any.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A GWR extension only to Goodrington could be quite straightforward.

Sands Road crossing would need to go on Paignton Panel. Would same panel have to control DSR movements on the DSR line over the crossing too?

 

[MarkyT]

The DSR is fully signalled but the strange thing is Sands Road level crossing is operated at the crossing by someone GWR or DSR coming to the crossing from Paignton and manually pressing the buttons.

It has dual controls and auto-raise. The idea was that the NR signaller would not normally have to be involved at all with DSR movements over the crossing, which is nonetheless a NR asset. A sort length of the DSR track over the crossing is still owned by the national network, although signalling control on that line is entirely handled by the DSR. Sometimes on busy days, NR send an person out to staff the local control on the NR side to avoid delays. The crossing could be converted to a MCB with CCTV or OD if there were more movements and as part of the signalling alterations. It might still have a dual control locally for DSR personnel to operate for their trains. Maybe closure should be considered. The road overbridge 150m to the south was provided explicitly to allow that before WW2 as part of a planned station expansion project. It didn't proceed and was not resumed after the war.

I think it was of the reasons GWR prefer to shunt a train back and forth over the Torbay Road crossing and only use the coach sidings for the 800s. A Cross Country train also shunts from platform 1 to 2 in the evening.

An incoming train can run straight into the west side platform via the facing right-handed crossover just to the north of Paignton North level crossing. This is preferred for local services with short layovers in particular. Sometimes timtableing or real-time running conflicts demand a second train arrives while the preferred platfrom is already occupied and that must use the other platform then do the south end shunt via the crossing and sidings as there's no second crossover north of the station to depart directly.

The local MP at the time when MP's were asked about opening railways in their area suggested extending the mainline to Goodrington.

That's certainly the most practical extension.

The problem with railways in this location is the No 12 bus running very frequently and the 120 hourly to Kingswear only taking 25 minutes; admittedly you have to walk down to the ferry from the banjo to get the ferries. While the £2 bus fare remains it is almost impossible for a railway to compete.

The biggest problem with the buses is the early evening finish on the #120 and the local bus between Brixham and Kingswear. The Dartmouth - Totnes bus also finishes early so it's a taxi or walk/cycle if you need to get in or out of town without access to a car. Although people do it I wouldn't recommend cycling or walking along the narrow twisty roads through the woods where drivers often seem to behave like they're on a timed rally stage. The #12 runs very late and the car ferries in Dartmouth all of which are fully open to foot passengers. I suggest an economical option for someone stuck in Dartmouth or Kingswear after hours without car access or fitness to drive might be taxi to Brixham or Churston to pick up the #12.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Maybe closure should be considered.

The last time that was considered it was heavily contested by locals, especially the local shop owner claiming loss of business.
So is it possible for duel control of the crossing should the NR side be moved onto the panel and the DSR side remain TMO ie one crossing two different operating systems?

 

[MarkyT]

Sands Road crossing would need to go on Paignton Panel. Would same panel have to control DSR movements on the DSR line over the crossing too?

It could, which would be more workload for the signaller clearly, although they can do a lot of automation now with auto-lower, auto-raise and obstruction detection for crossing clear proving. The signaller would still have to manage any faults or incidents, as now. I suspect you could keep a duplicate local control for the DSR trains though. Another possibility might be one of those AFBCL (Automatic Full Barrier Crossing, Locally Monitored) types which operate like a ABCL with red and white flashing lights for rail traffic and full barriers and an OD function proved in the drivers flashing white light indication along with barriers down and intact, road lights flashing etc.

The last time that was considered it was heavily contested by locals, especially the local shop owner claiming loss of business.

Another alternative might be to convert it to an automated footpath only crossing with red-green lights and possible gate locks. His customers could park on the other side of the railway and walk over! Probably still need a button for DSR to press to initiate the warning for a standing start from their station.

So is it possible for duel control of the crossing should the NR side be moved onto the panel and the DSR side remain TMO ie one crossing two different operating systems?

I think that should be possible. The basic functionality of such crossings is the same under the hood and the initiating control can be remote or local. The crossing has two local control units today, one on either side. The NR side one would be replaced in normal operation by the remote control from the box and a CCTV system established for supervision.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The crossing has two local control units today, one on either side.

It actually has four sets of controls, one either side for each line but that`s just me wearing my pedant hat. Presumably the GF would remain to control the crossover but would it need an associated Annetts Key and machine to interlock it with the signals?

 

[REVUpminster]

All the shunts from 1 to 2 are timetabled. Usually happens when a express is leaving platform 2. The local moves north from platform 1 as the express moves north from platform 2. This keeps the crossing closed for the least amount of time. The driver changes end and the crossing closes to allow the shunt to complete into platform 2.

Where it goes wrong is that the local moves north on time from platform 1 and the express is delayed for a few minutes before leaving and the local driver has changed ends so the signalman keeps the crossing closed to allow the shunt. The level crossing can often be down for 5 minutes or more. I've watched it lots of time.

It happens 4/5 times a day.

 

[nanstallon]

The DSR is fully signalled but the strange thing is Sands Road level crossing is operated at the crossing by someone GWR or DSR coming to the crossing from Paignton and manually pressing the buttons.

I think it was of the reasons GWR prefer to shunt a train back and forth over the Torbay Road crossing and only use the coach sidings for the 800s. A Cross Country train also shunts from platform 1 to 2 in the evening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

The local MP at the time when MP's were asked about opening railways in their area suggested extending the mainline to Goodrington.

The problem with railways in this location is the No 12 bus running very frequently and the 120 hourly to Kingswear only taking 25 minutes; admittedly you have to walk down to the ferry from the banjo to get the ferries. While the £2 bus fare remains it is almost impossible for a railway to compete.

As we learned from the Swanage Railway's attempt to run a regular dmu service to Wareham.

 

[MarkyT]

All the shunts from 1 to 2 are timetabled. Usually happens when a express is leaving platform 2. The local moves north from platform 1 as the express moves north from platform 2. This keeps the crossing closed for the least amount of time. The driver changes end and the crossing closes to allow the shunt to complete into platform 2.

Where it goes wrong is that the local moves north on time from platform 1 and the express is delayed for a few minutes before leaving and the local driver has changed ends so the signalman keeps the crossing closed to allow the shunt. The level crossing can often be down for 5 minutes or more. I've watched it lots of time.

It happens 4/5 times a day.

Could be a good case for CCTVing the south crossing for a quicker shunt at that end even without any extension of GWR services. Cheaper than an additional LH crossover at north to allow direct departure from #1. Presumably, the south crossing makes a south shunt more time-consuming today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

It actually has four sets of controls, one either side for each line but that`s just me wearing my pedant hat. Presumably the GF would remain to control the crossover but would it need an associated Annetts Key and machine to interlock it with the signals?

Alternatively, maybe a direct electric lock release on the DSR ground frame with the ability to set a signalled route across the boundary in either direction once the ground frame is locked reverse. Checking the SA, the GF is released already on the DSR side by an Annetts key and they have to send someone out to operate it. The key lock circuit could have additional controls to prove interlocking on the NR side as well as the DSR side, or a second NR key from its own key instrument could keep the circuits separate. Either way, once proving contacts confirmed the GF was locked reverse, signal routes could be set over it cooperatively.

 

[SwindonManor]

You are going to have to explain why it "clearly doesn't", as it isn't clear to me. I would say that the SMR has preserved far more of its heritage than a lot of other preserved railways have. Starting with all those preserved branch-lines that have main-line express passenger engines running over them, for example.

True, however I feel like that heritage railways a lot of times find it hard to replicate the exact history of the line. Because if they are a small line, also express engines can make them a lot of money

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

A GWR extension only to Goodrington could be quite straightforward. DSR would give up the rarely used west side platform and the nearest NR carriage siding to the DSR line would be converted to a passenger line terminating at a bufferstop in the vacated platform. That could provide a useful place for car bourne customers to park and board a local train rather than driving into Paignton where traffic can be problematic and parking provision is diminishing. Parking in the vicinity of Goodrington station could be shared with the DSR and no step walkways provided to both platforms for access. DSR would continue to operate into Paignton as now.

Exactly what I thought good ideas coming from you here MarkyT.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

Sands Road crossing would need to go on Paignton Panel. Would same panel have to control DSR movements on the DSR line over the crossing too?

Yes true and the upgrade to signals could cause disruption at Paignton...

 

[MarkyT]

Yes true and the upgrade to signals could cause disruption at Paignton...

Some would be inevitable but converting south crossing to CCTV wouldn't impact much. While the south junction and yard area was being altered for passenger trains to Goodrington, access to the sidings would be blocked at times, but most of the time a local service could probably continue in platform #2 for reversal. There'd be a changeover weekend I expect when all services would be curtailed for comprehensive testing and commissioning of the altered relay interlocking.

 

[michaelh]

A couple of things that I think make the Dartmouth Steam Railway more likely to stick with running steam into the future in my opinion.

1) They’ve diversified into running the various ferries that they now own in the tourist honeypot that they operate in; meaning that their fuel costs for everything they run, taken as a whole are more spread out.
2) A big part of their shtick is the Agatha Christie pre war chocolate box cover gleaming steam locomotives thing. It’s what they’ve always been and it’s what’s made them incredibly financially successful over the years.

On a wider note, it is disappointing that they don’t now stop at the intermediate stations, they do however take a lot of traffic off the roads into Dartmouth and bring a huge amount of tourists into the town. It’s also a wonderful section of line with a bit of everything on it.

Personally I love it, even if the stations are fairly rubbish (barring Kingswear which still has something rather nice about it).

The last time my wife and I visited the area, we caught the steam train from Paignton to Churston and the shuttle bus to/from Greenway (Agatha Christie's holiday home) before travelling on to Kingswear and lunch and the afternoon in Dartmouth before catching the very quiet last train back to Paignton.

 

[SwindonManor]

Some would be inevitable but converting south crossing to CCTV wouldn't impact much. While the south junction and yard area was being altered for passenger trains to Goodrington, access to the sidings would be blocked at times, but most of the time a local service could probably continue in platform #2 for reversal. There'd be a changeover weekend I expect when all services would be curtailed for comprehensive testing and commissioning of the altered relay interlocking.

I see what you mean there actually because they normally just switch from platform 1 to 2 if that needs to happen and it is slightly south of the station so only the services timetabled for sidings at those times it gets blocked off. I presume this wouldn't effect the DSR in any way? They could still run in and out of Paignton but would they have to drop some services?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

The last time my wife and I visited the area, we caught the steam train from Paignton to Churston and the shuttle bus to/from Greenway (Agatha Christie's holiday home) before travelling on to Kingswear and lunch and the afternoon in Dartmouth before catching the very quiet last train back to Paignton.

That is rare! I have never heard of a quiet last train back on the DSR alas any heritage railway because people want to explore and stretch out to the last train but the time of year/week you visit changes some factors to this matter I suppose.

 

[Belperpete]

True, however I feel like that heritage railways a lot of times find it hard to replicate the exact history of the line.

Just about every heritage railway that I can think of has had to adapt substantially in order to survive. The Talyllyn of today, for example, bears little resemblance to the pre preservation railway. Very few were built to carry shed loads of tourists and nothing else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

I don't have to do anything for you.

Agreed that you don't have to explain the thinking behind your controversial statement, but it would help if you did.

 

[MarkyT]

I presume this wouldn't effect the DSR in any way? They could still run in and out of Paignton but would they have to drop some services?

Unlikely to affect them very much at all I agree. There might be issues with NR trackwork going on alongside the DSR running line, but I'm sure safe systems of work could be devised to minimise service impact while allowing work to continue between trains. Along with GWR extension work to Goodrington it might be sensible to complete the signalling for the transfer crossover. I think it's all ready and interlocked with slots awaiting etc on the DSR side. When BR built the new relay interlocking for Paignton around 1990 they supposedly made provision (space on relay racks and design of panel face) for signalled routes across the boundary but I understand the project was unable to complete the work as a commercial agreement was never forthcoming, hence the un-interlocked method still used today over 30 years later with a special key held in the box and a verbal instruction to pass a red. It works, is arguably tolerably safe for occasional excursions, but is time-consuming and requires extra NR personel to go out and secure the ground frame. The best solution would be to motorise the crossover points with slots allowing signalled routes to be set across the boundary.

Images of Britannia Crossing panel can be seen here:

https://tillyweb.biz/gallery/bb/britannia.htm

That is rare! I have never heard of a quiet last train back on the DSR alas any heritage railway because people want to explore and stretch out to the last train but the time of year/week you visit changes some factors to this matter I suppose.

A symptom of the early finish of operations. I feel this is a little dated, predicated on the old notion of holidaymakers all scurrying back to their guest houses for 6 o'clock sharp dinner service. I understand running later would be a significant cost for a commercial operation like the DSR as they'd likely need a second shift, albeit maybe a short one, for all the paid staff required on duty.

 

[Belperpete]

A symptom of the early finish of operations. I feel this is a little dated, predicated on the old notion of holidaymakers all scurrying back to their guest houses for 6 o'clock sharp dinner service. I understand running later would be a significant cost for a commercial operation like the DSR as they'd likely need a second shift, albeit maybe a short one, for all the paid staff required on duty.

I have noticed that a number of preserved railways that used to offer evening services have cut back or even stopped running them altogether. I can't speak for Paignton, but certainly the seaside town where I live is much quieter in the evenings, even in high summer, than it used to be. I suspect it has a lot to do with there being significantly fewer eating places open in the evenings than there used to be pre COVID. Plus other factors, such as families not being able to afford to eat out as much as before. If you are on a train that gets back at 8pm or later, you may struggle to find somewhere to eat, and may not want to start cooking yourself at that time, particularly if you have young children to feed. Many of the places that I used to be able to direct people to, now are closed by 7.

 

[BrianW]

I have noticed that a number of preserved railways that used to offer evening services have cut back or even stopped running them altogether. I can't speak for Paignton, but certainly the seaside town where I live is much quieter in the evenings, even in high summer, than it used to be. I suspect it has a lot to do with there being significantly fewer eating places open in the evenings than there used to be pre COVID. Plus other factors, such as families not being able to afford to eat out as much as before. If you are on a train that gets back at 8pm or later, you may struggle to find somewhere to eat, and may not want to start cooking yourself at that time, particularly if you have young children to feed. Many of the places that I used to be able to direct people to, now are closed by 7.

The times they are a-changin' ...

 

[MarkyT]

I have noticed that a number of preserved railways that used to offer evening services have cut back or even stopped running them altogether. I can't speak for Paignton, but certainly the seaside town where I live is much quieter in the evenings, even in high summer, than it used to be. I suspect it has a lot to do with there being significantly fewer eating places open in the evenings than there used to be pre COVID. Plus other factors, such as families not being able to afford to eat out as much as before. If you are on a train that gets back at 8pm or later, you may struggle to find somewhere to eat, and may not want to start cooking yourself at that time, particularly if you have young children to feed. Many of the places that I used to be able to direct people to, now are closed by 7.

Also if there's no late public transport of any kind, whether oriented to locals or tourists, that's bound to suppress demand to a degree. A small hotelier I know told me this season is turning out well for bookings so far compared to the absolute dumpster fire of last year. I know many businesses, even well-established and respected ones, that shut for the last time in 2023.

 

[simonw]

Just about every heritage railway that I can think of has had to adapt substantially in order to survive. The Talyllyn of today, for example, bears little resemblance to the pre preservation railway. Very few were built to carry shed loads of tourists and nothing else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==


Agreed that you don't have to explain the thinking behind your controversial statement, but it would help if you did.

I don't think anyone who understands what the word preserved means would find anything 'controversial ' about my post.

 

[SwindonManor]

Unlikely to affect them very much at all I agree. There might be issues with NR trackwork going on alongside the DSR running line, but I'm sure safe systems of work could be devised to minimise service impact while allowing work to continue between trains. Along with GWR extension work to Goodrington it might be sensible to complete the signalling for the transfer crossover. I think it's all ready and interlocked with slots awaiting etc on the DSR side. When BR built the new relay interlocking for Paignton around 1990 they supposedly made provision (space on relay racks and design of panel face) for signalled routes across the boundary but I understand the project was unable to complete the work as a commercial agreement was never forthcoming, hence the un-interlocked method still used today over 30 years later with a special key held in the box and a verbal instruction to pass a red. It works, is arguably tolerably safe for occasional excursions, but is time-consuming and requires extra NR personel to go out and secure the ground frame. The best solution would be to motorise the crossover points with slots allowing signalled routes to be set across the boundary.

Images of Britannia Crossing panel can be seen here:

https://tillyweb.biz/gallery/bb/britannia.htm

A symptom of the early finish of operations. I feel this is a little dated, predicated on the old notion of holidaymakers all scurrying back to their guest houses for 6 o'clock sharp dinner service. I understand running later would be a significant cost for a commercial operation like the DSR as they'd likely need a second shift, albeit maybe a short one, for all the paid staff required on duty.

Funnily enough I went to Britannia one day to film 'Hercules' (the resident 42XX) and the guy working there let me take a picture of the control panel so I have seen that in action in person and I think it could handle an upgrade. I only just noticed how early they have now stopped trains. Looked at one video from when 7820 'Dinmore Manor' visited form the GWSR and there was a train from Paignton at 18.30!

 

[BayPaul]

The DSR have a very efficient operation - I understand that they can run a full day of their 1 train service with just 8 operational staff - including train crew, signaller and station staff. They concentrate on profitable activities. At a time when other heritage railways are struggling, this seems like a very sensible strategy. I strongly suspect that they carry more passengers to Kingswear than if the line became part of the national rail network again - the combination of useful tourist transport and steam works very well.

I think it would be great if GWR could run a couple of DMU services in the morning and evening before / after the steam services, but I suspect they would struggle to compete with the buses given the £2 fare and reasonable frequency.

 

[Cowley]

The DSR have a very efficient operation - I understand that they can run a full day of their 1 train service with just 8 operational staff - including train crew, signaller and station staff. They concentrate on profitable activities. At a time when other heritage railways are struggling, this seems like a very sensible strategy. I strongly suspect that they carry more passengers to Kingswear than if the line became part of the national rail network again - the combination of useful tourist transport and steam works very well.

I think it would be great if GWR could run a couple of DMU services in the morning and evening before / after the steam services, but I suspect they would struggle to compete with the buses given the £2 fare and reasonable frequency.

Completely agree with all of that.

 

[AndrewE]

As we learned from the Swanage Railway's attempt to run a regular dmu service to Wareham.

I wonder whether we might see a different attitude to public transport now (and a more supportive approach to so-called active travel access to "attractions.") This would require a more benevolent attitude from the national railway's beancounters, i.e. they should be allowed required to factor in a net carbon gain, something long overdue IMHO.

 

[D Williams]

"I wonder whether we might see a different attitude to public transport now (and a more supportive approach to so-called active travel access to "attractions.") This would require a more benevolent attitude from the national railway's beancounters, i.e. they should be allowed required to factor in a net carbon gain, something long overdue IMHO."


Electric buses are low carbon. As taxpayers we already pay a lot of money for a rail service that is at best barely adequate. Railways have very high running costs, do you want to pay more? Kingswear has a population of about 1200 people, Dartmouth, across the river, 5000. Why would an all year rail service be in any way cost-effective?

 

[nanstallon]

The Dartmouth Steam Railway is run by people who know how to run a railway without subsidy. Perhaps it is best to leave it to them to decide whether an year round rail service would be viable.