I'll let others comment on the revised draft (which does look much better to me, and is contrite, rather than confrontational which the first one was), but will just make one point re SWR's use of the old address, which they clearly got from somewhere. Is it possible that the address held on Trainline (or whichever booking engine you use) has not been updated? So when they identified an inconsistency with the one given they opted to use the one Trainline held. The other instance we sometimes see is that a driving license has not been updated - itself a criminal offence, so worth checking that.
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Summons received - use of expired railcard
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glasgowniteowl
On Moderation
Just a point swr are likely to be looking for the full anytime fare to be paid for each journey not the difference in fare, they don't usually give any discount for fares partially paid
WesternLancer
Veteran Member
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ref this
"I offer to pay the outstanding fare difference for these journey"
sadly I'm not sure it works like this because they regard the lack of Railcard as meaning the ticket held is not valid at all - so they may well want the full sum not the balance between what was paid and the undiscounted by Railcard fare
Might be worth being a bit vaguer "I offer to pay any outstanding sum owed for these journeys"
sadly no one in this position with the railway is in a string position as they can always prosecute and win on the one case, so the focus here is not so much the money now, it's avoiding the criminal record from a court case I fear
Elmsey
Member
Thanks. It was all a bit complicated as, at the time we were living in an airbnb between and house sale and a house purchase. Our post was being redirected. That said, she says that she was to asked for her address, even though the witness statement says she was. If she was I am sure that she would have given the temporary address.
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Thank you will make the adjustment
One obvious question is how did your daughter get back from London to Southampton.
Elmsey
Member
She took a taxi with her friends to Gatwick and flew out and then flew back to Southampton Airport a week later and I collected her.
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It was a crack of dawn flight!
Ok. That's fine but don't be surprised if they ask.
Elmsey
Member
Are there any other changes on the letter?
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Additionally, the Court Summons is dated 13th June, the court date is 24th July. The summons date is date stamped 9th July, so we have very little notice.
What do we do about the summons?
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Additionally, the Court Summons is dated 13th June, the court date is 24th July. The summons date is date stamped 9th July, so we have very little notice.
What do we do about the summons?
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It was an Uber so she will have proof
glasgowniteowl
On Moderation
Unfortunately unless you hear otherwise from swr, your daughter will need to attend court on that date, if she does even at that late stage, it may still be possible to get swr to agree to settlement by speaking to the prosecutor on the morning of the case
Elmsey
Member
It says to plead guilty or not guilty
Re the wrong address, maybe write something along these lines:
"Although I gave the guard my correct address, all post relating to this matter had been sent to a wrong address, so I did not receive letters in a timely manner and was unable to engage with you to settle earlier." Nothing too confrontational or accusatory, but explaining why they had had no resonse to their initial enquiries.
Re your new railcard - make a note on your phone's callendar to renew before it expires - no-ne else will remind you, and we do not want you to find yourself in the same position in a year's time.
"Although I gave the guard my correct address, all post relating to this matter had been sent to a wrong address, so I did not receive letters in a timely manner and was unable to engage with you to settle earlier." Nothing too confrontational or accusatory, but explaining why they had had no resonse to their initial enquiries.
Re your new railcard - make a note on your phone's callendar to renew before it expires - no-ne else will remind you, and we do not want you to find yourself in the same position in a year's time.
I've not had an opportunity to engage with this thread as I've been a bit busy ibn 'real life'.
Some good advice has already been given by forum members so I won't repeat what's already been said. A couple of things for your letter to SWR:
1. I would make sure you've made it very clear that the original letter was sent to the wrong address. Make sure you make your current contact address very clear so the same thing doesn't happen again.
2. When asking SWR for an out of court settlement I suggest using wording like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this out of court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the outstanding fares plus your admin costs in dealing with this case'.
Regarding the court case we could do with understanding if your daughter has been summonsed to appear or whether she's been issued with a Single Justice Procedure Notice. Are you able to upload copies of the court paperwork (but do redact any personal details before doing so). Ideally you want SWR to agree to an out of court settlement which means that you pay them a sum of money and in return they will withdraw the court case. If you don't get a reply before the last point at which you need to enter a plea I would be inclu=ined to plead not guilty. This would give you the opportunity to seek out the prosecutor at the court and see if you could arrange an out of court settlement with them - this has been know to be successful in the past.
Finally, to clear up why your daughter is only being prosecuted for one offence. This is because buying tickets isn't illegal but using them is. She has been caught red handed with an invalid ticket and if the case ends up in court she would be found guilty. Your daughter would have to pay:
- A fine based on her income (normally discounted for pleading guilty)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided (for the single offence where your daughter was caught)
- A contribution towards SWR's court costs
Many train companies are happy to offer an out of court settlement. The train companies will usually research the online ticketing account and identify transactions that look suspicious. They will normally offer to settle if you pay the costs of all the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate plus an admin fee, typically around £150, to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. Settling out of court means the train company gets more money than if they go to court (because the fine and surcharge to to the Government, not the train company), and it also means that a court case and criminal record is avoided.
Some good advice has already been given by forum members so I won't repeat what's already been said. A couple of things for your letter to SWR:
1. I would make sure you've made it very clear that the original letter was sent to the wrong address. Make sure you make your current contact address very clear so the same thing doesn't happen again.
2. When asking SWR for an out of court settlement I suggest using wording like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this out of court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the outstanding fares plus your admin costs in dealing with this case'.
Regarding the court case we could do with understanding if your daughter has been summonsed to appear or whether she's been issued with a Single Justice Procedure Notice. Are you able to upload copies of the court paperwork (but do redact any personal details before doing so). Ideally you want SWR to agree to an out of court settlement which means that you pay them a sum of money and in return they will withdraw the court case. If you don't get a reply before the last point at which you need to enter a plea I would be inclu=ined to plead not guilty. This would give you the opportunity to seek out the prosecutor at the court and see if you could arrange an out of court settlement with them - this has been know to be successful in the past.
Finally, to clear up why your daughter is only being prosecuted for one offence. This is because buying tickets isn't illegal but using them is. She has been caught red handed with an invalid ticket and if the case ends up in court she would be found guilty. Your daughter would have to pay:
- A fine based on her income (normally discounted for pleading guilty)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided (for the single offence where your daughter was caught)
- A contribution towards SWR's court costs
Many train companies are happy to offer an out of court settlement. The train companies will usually research the online ticketing account and identify transactions that look suspicious. They will normally offer to settle if you pay the costs of all the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate plus an admin fee, typically around £150, to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. Settling out of court means the train company gets more money than if they go to court (because the fine and surcharge to to the Government, not the train company), and it also means that a court case and criminal record is avoided.
Elmsey
Member
Thank you. This confirms what I had thought. She has a full summons. I will upload a copy. It says if she pleads not guilty the court date will be moved. I am inclined to do that anyway to give more opportunity for SWR to respond (which they have previously failed to do).
That's what you should do at this moment, yes.
Elmsey
Member
HEre is the Summons and the first letter
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Revised draft letter following input
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing regarding the court summons I have received for travelling on the 19th January 2024 with an expired railcard. I am very keen to settle this matter without the need for court action.
Please note that both your first letter and this court Summons has been sent to the incorrect address. As soon as I received your first letter in April (via a mail redirect), I wrote to you via email saying that I wanted to make a settlement but asking questions about the settlement amount and trying to correct the address. However, I have not had a response to that correspondence.
My current address is [].
I am deeply sorry for what has happened. It was a genuine mistake as I did not realise my rail card had expired. I now understand that traveling with an expired railcard is considered the same as travelling without a valid ticket. This experience has taught me to be much more vigilant about checking the validity of my travel documents before each journey. I am very Dyslexic and these things do not come easily to me. When I discovered my error I made sure that I purchased a new railcard on, 7th February, prior to my next travel date, as I had no intention of deliberately travelling without a valid Railcard on that or any of the other prior occasions.
Between 22nd October 2023 and the 19th January 2024, I travelled 5 single journeys between Southampton Parkway and Tooting, one single journey between Gatwick Airport and London Bridge and 2 single journeys between Southampton Airport Parkway and Waterloo, using the expired railcard. I offer to pay any outstanding sums for these journeys, as well as South Western Railway's administrative costs in dealing with this matter.
I would be grateful if you would consider withdrawing the court proceedings and allow me to settle this out of court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the outstanding fares plus your admin costs in dealing with this case and I will arrange payment promptly.
Thank you for your consideration.
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Revised draft letter following input
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing regarding the court summons I have received for travelling on the 19th January 2024 with an expired railcard. I am very keen to settle this matter without the need for court action.
Please note that both your first letter and this court Summons has been sent to the incorrect address. As soon as I received your first letter in April (via a mail redirect), I wrote to you via email saying that I wanted to make a settlement but asking questions about the settlement amount and trying to correct the address. However, I have not had a response to that correspondence.
My current address is [].
I am deeply sorry for what has happened. It was a genuine mistake as I did not realise my rail card had expired. I now understand that traveling with an expired railcard is considered the same as travelling without a valid ticket. This experience has taught me to be much more vigilant about checking the validity of my travel documents before each journey. I am very Dyslexic and these things do not come easily to me. When I discovered my error I made sure that I purchased a new railcard on, 7th February, prior to my next travel date, as I had no intention of deliberately travelling without a valid Railcard on that or any of the other prior occasions.
Between 22nd October 2023 and the 19th January 2024, I travelled 5 single journeys between Southampton Parkway and Tooting, one single journey between Gatwick Airport and London Bridge and 2 single journeys between Southampton Airport Parkway and Waterloo, using the expired railcard. I offer to pay any outstanding sums for these journeys, as well as South Western Railway's administrative costs in dealing with this matter.
I would be grateful if you would consider withdrawing the court proceedings and allow me to settle this out of court. I am prepared to pay the cost of the outstanding fares plus your admin costs in dealing with this case and I will arrange payment promptly.
Thank you for your consideration.
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I think the letter is ok but wait to see if there are any amendments suggested by other forum members.
I would send the letter by 1st class recorded delivery so that you can check it has been received. Make sure you keep a copy of the letter for your own records.
I would send the letter by 1st class recorded delivery so that you can check it has been received. Make sure you keep a copy of the letter for your own records.
Elmsey
Member
Thank you. Unfortunately the only address available is "Freepost SWR prosections" There is no post code so recorded delivery is not possible!
I’ve sent letters recorded delivery to Freepost addresses before, so it should be possible.
Thinking about it the service is called ‘Signed For’ rather than recorded delivery.
notmyrealname
Member
I didn't know that about Freepost addresses.
If what Hadders suggests doesn't work, you should be able to get a free Proof of Posting from a Post Office or possibly the Royal Mail app.
If what Hadders suggests doesn't work, you should be able to get a free Proof of Posting from a Post Office or possibly the Royal Mail app.
Elmsey
Member
Thanks all. I did send it with a first class stamp on. My daughter also emailed it. I will send again on Monday using a signed for service, if the post office will let me, to at least get a proof of posting. Thank you all. I will keep you posted.
You can send signed for letters to a full freepost address but not to a “vanity” freepost address like the one being discussed here.
That being the case I would send two copies of the letter:
One to the Freepost address
The other to SWR’s Registered Office which is on the bottom of their letter.
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