UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[SWT_USER]

As I hoped, it seems there might be some movement downwards on EV charging prices thanks to growing competition.

(YouTube video discussing price cuts for public EV charging, including Gridserve cutting costs by 20% for members*)

Now I do fear that some companies will collude to keep prices higher, and the idea of memberships for discounts smacks of supermarket loyalty cards and a risk of the 'non member' price going up, more than the member price going down, but it's a step in the right direction.

They key is for EV owners to vote with their wallets and ensure companies don't price gouge.

[* Memberships are currently free, but you must still register and download a special app]

Thanks for sharing that. I'd used Gridserve on a London > Yorkshire trip recently just paying at the terminal. I've signed up for the app now and will use the 20% off next time!

I see the discount is only until the end of September, although presumably it will be extended if they want to incentivise people to use the app.

 

[jon0844]

Unless they all form a cartel to keep prices high (which is quite possible, no doubt being exposed in years to come) then I expect they're going to need to keep such discounts and incentives because there is now so much choice - a stark contrast from all those who seem think there are still only a handful of chargers (right now I think I have some 150 charging points within 3 miles of my house).

There's little to no need to show loyalty to any of them unless financially worth while.

 

[SWT_USER]

Unless they all form a cartel to keep prices high (which is quite possible, no doubt being exposed in years to come) then I expect they're going to need to keep such discounts and incentives because there is now so much choice - a stark contrast from all those who seem think there are still only a handful of chargers (right now I think I have some 150 charging points within 3 miles of my house).

There's little to no need to show loyalty to any of them unless financially worth while.

Tend to agree. If I'd been on my own I'd have gone somewhere off motorway and found a cheaper place to charge, but when you're with hungry children and you just want to get somewhere the most convenient option is a service station and I accept I'm paying a premium for the convenience. I'm looking forward to more of the Tesla chargers being available (as they are increasingly) to non-Tesla drivers. That will provide more competition at existing sites without needing new infrastructure.

I'm fortunate in that I can charge at home so rarely need to pay for public charging, although currently the ones in the shopping centre nearest to me are still free so I always take the opportunity to top up there. I can't see it lasting!

 

[paul1609]

Unless they all form a cartel to keep prices high (which is quite possible, no doubt being exposed in years to come) then I expect they're going to need to keep such discounts and incentives because there is now so much choice - a stark contrast from all those who seem think there are still only a handful of chargers (right now I think I have some 150 charging points within 3 miles of my house).

There's little to no need to show loyalty to any of them unless financially worth while.

I probably live in one of the remoter parts of Kent but Im only 60 miles from Charing Cross the only chargers I have within 5 miles of my house are 7Kw Pod Points at Tesco and 7Kw council chargers In Tenterden. At 8 miles there is one 150 Kw at a farm shop on the A259 other than that you are looking at 16 miles + and going to the M20 or A21 at Hastings or Ashford.

 

[RailWonderer]

Unless they all form a cartel to keep prices high (which is quite possible, no doubt being exposed in years to come) then I expect they're going to need to keep such discounts and incentives because there is now so much choice - a stark contrast from all those who seem think there are still only a handful of chargers (right now I think I have some 150 charging points within 3 miles of my house).

Totally not the case in Essex. The local paper ran a story about there not being enough charging points and we are seeing more EVs and people are open minded about them but it's not happening in larger numbers.

 

[jon0844]

Totally not the case in Essex. The local paper ran a story about there not being enough charging points and we are seeing more EVs and people are open minded about them but it's not happening in larger numbers.

Where exactly in Essex? It's a big county. Are there huge queues for the ones there are?

There are multiple ways to find locations, and I suspect there are plenty.

 

[bspahh]

There are multiple ways to find locations, and I suspect there are plenty.

How would you look for a fast charger?

I looked at Zapmap for publically accessible chargers in Norfolk that are faster than 100kW, and there aren't any North of Kings Lynn. I expected there would be more than that.


I understand that on a long journey, you are probably going to use Motorways and trunk routes which will have more fast chargers available. However, if you have to use a 50kW charger to recharge after a long journey, its going to be a long coffee break.

 

[jon0844]

How would you look for a fast charger?

I looked at Zapmap for publically accessible chargers in Norfolk that are faster than 100kW, and there aren't any North of Kings Lynn. I expected there would be more than that.
View attachment 161520

I understand that on a long journey, you are probably going to use Motorways and trunk routes which will have more fast chargers available. However, if you have to use a 50kW charger to recharge after a long journey, its going to be a long coffee break.

Norfolk is quite sparse but I'm not sure Essex is anywhere near as bad.

To be fair, while you might prefer a fast charger, you would surely use a slower one if it was considerably closer.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless they all form a cartel to keep prices high (which is quite possible, no doubt being exposed in years to come) then I expect they're going to need to keep such discounts and incentives because there is now so much choice - a stark contrast from all those who seem think there are still only a handful of chargers (right now I think I have some 150 charging points within 3 miles of my house).

There's little to no need to show loyalty to any of them unless financially worth while.

I’m waiting for one of the suppliers to start claiming they are selling ‘premium’ electricity….

 

[jon0844]

I’m waiting for one of the suppliers to start claiming they are selling ‘premium’ electricity….

That's effectively what they're doing already. Pay more for faster charging, like a convenience fee. It seems people have accepted this so I doubt it will change.

Because of the different charging curves and some chargers load balancing, I wonder if the rate should drop if you don't get the advertised 'speed'. Clearly there's zero incentive to do that, but many people will be paying more for nothing if their car can't take the additional power but it was the only available charger.

 

[Noddy]

How would you look for a fast charger?

I looked at Zapmap for publically accessible chargers in Norfolk that are faster than 100kW, and there aren't any North of Kings Lynn. I expected there would be more than that.
View attachment 161520

I understand that on a long journey, you are probably going to use Motorways and trunk routes which will have more fast chargers available. However, if you have to use a 50kW charger to recharge after a long journey, its going to be a long coffee break.

Who is doing a long journey via north Norfolk. You’re either going to be starting your journey in the area or finishing your journey in the area?

 

[Krokodil]

I’m waiting for one of the suppliers to start claiming they are selling ‘premium’ electricity….

Hyacinth wouldn't want her electricity to have gone to any of those families before hers:

(clip from Keeping Up Appearances)

 

[bspahh]

Norfolk is quite sparse but I'm not sure Essex is anywhere near as bad.

To be fair, while you might prefer a fast charger, you would surely use a slower one if it was considerably closer.

Sure. You wrote that there were multiple ways to find a charger. Did you mean different ways to get cheap access to one, or are some of the chargers not listed at Zapmap?

Who is doing a long journey via north Norfolk. You’re either going to be starting your journey in the area or finishing your journey in the area?

I've got elderly in laws who live near Cromer. A simple return trip there and back would be no problem. However, recently, I've done some more complex journeys, at short notice where I would not have wanted to have to make a detour to a fast charger, or hang around waiting for a slow one.

 

[jon0844]

There are many apps to find chargers, but if you're opting to filter out chargers below a certain rate then that's fine (for the reasons given) but it doesn't mean there aren't other chargers available.

It's one thing to argue that there aren't places to charge, and that's why you can't buy an EV because you couldn't get around, but another to ignore the slower chargers. Of course it might be inconvenient to have to wait another 10-15 minutes, but there is a big difference in being unable to drive somewhere as you might end up stranded, or having to twiddle your thumbs for a while.

I have no idea if Zapmap shows every single charger. My understanding is that it's very comprehensive, but there might be other sites it hasn't got. Do all the companies installing chargers notify Zapmap, or is it a crowd-sourced method where users let them know?

I downloaded the Octopus app, which has a membership scheme, and noticed that most sites were missing. I guess sites must be partnered with Octopus to be included, which is fair enough. However, again, this does mean there are other sites out there that might fill in some of the gaps.

At least with the flat terrain and usually fairly low speeds (smaller roads, caravans, tractors etc) most EVs are probably extremely efficient in Norfolk!

 

[trebor79]

Who is doing a long journey via north Norfolk. You’re either going to be starting your journey in the area or finishing your journey in the area?

Exactly. It's reasonably well provisioned with AC destination chargers.

Sure. You wrote that there were multiple ways to find a charger. Did you mean different ways to get cheap access to one, or are some of the chargers not listed at Zapmap?

I've got elderly in laws who live near Cromer. A simple return trip there and back would be no problem. However, recently, I've done some more complex journeys, at short notice where I would not have wanted to have to make a detour to a fast charger, or hang around waiting for a slow one.

Unusual to need to wait for a destination charger. And in fact if they are all in use you don't bother and just slap it on a rapid for 15 minutes, of which there are multiple choices on every sensible route out of Norfolk. No detour required.

 

[Noddy]

I've got elderly in laws who live near Cromer. A simple return trip there and back would be no problem. However, recently, I've done some more complex journeys, at short notice where I would not have wanted to have to make a detour to a fast charger, or hang around waiting for a slow one.

Presumably you’re spending (at least) a few hours there so use a slower charger nearby or an even granny charger (ducks for cover) at your folks if they have space.

There aren’t many (any?) routes out of Norfolk where you’d need to take a detour to find to find a fast charger, and heading out of Cromer itself there are 150kw chargers just off the A140 at Aylsham, and 75kw chargers just off the A148 near Fakenham.

 

[bspahh]

There aren’t many (any?) routes out of Norfolk where you’d need to take a detour to find to find a fast charger, and heading out of Cromer itself there are 150kw chargers just off the A140 at Aylsham, and 75kw chargers just off the A148 near Fakenham.

Fakenham is on my route back home. I checked the the recent reviews at Zapmap for the 60kW chargers at Morrisons (5 were successful, 3 had problems, 8 were failures) and the 75kW chargers at the pub next door (11 were successful, 3 had problems, 4 were failures).

 

[Noddy]

Fakenham is on my route back home. I checked the the recent reviews at Zapmap for the 60kW chargers at Morrisons (5 were successful, 3 had problems, 8 were failures) and the 75kW chargers at the pub next door (11 were successful, 3 had problems, 4 were failures).

Yeah I wouldn’t use the 60kw ones at Morrisons-they’re Geniepoint and likely terrible. The 75kw ones are Osprey who are normally very reliable so I’d have no hesitation going there.

 

[E27007]

The conversion to ZEV involves a big "upfront" in CO2 emissions as the high-capacity battery packs are manufactured and the infrastructure for ZEVs is created, that upfront is paid back by the lower emissions during the long-term service life of the ZEV.
The link is to an article by Nick Molden of Emissions Analytics, the article is critical of the programme for the elimination of mass-manufacture of non-ZEV's, Molden believes the ZEV CO2 upfront is a gamble , he advocates a greater role for the hybrid EV which trades the CO2 of manufacture vs CO2 emissions during service life of the hybrid vehicle.

A quotation from the article: "Molden analysis:

“As a country, we have spent roughly £12 billion subsidising electric vehicles, yet carbon dioxide emissions haven’t decreased; they have increased due to the substantial upfront carbon dioxide generated in EV production "

Electric vehicles not cost-effective for emissions reduction

 

[jon0844]

Reviews of the Dacia Spring going live now and it's reported that it can do 7.5 miles per kWh (it's under 1000Kg) making it one of the most efficient EVs ever.

On the latest Octopus tariff you could charge at a rate that makes it less than 1p per mile!

While some may buy this to save money as their main car (either new, or second hand in a year or two when the price will be even better) there may be many who simply buy one as a second car.

It isn't even poverty spec, although you will have to remember to put the wipers on yourself!

The next best bargain car will be the Citroën e-C3 but it appears that this won't ship now until January 2025.

Video of car being driven in France.

 

[Snow1964]

Reviews of the Dacia Spring going live now and it's reported that it can do 7.5 miles per kWh (it's under 1000Kg) making it one of the most efficient EVs ever.

On the latest Octopus tariff you could charge at a rate that makes it less than 1p per mile!

While some may buy this to save money as their main car (either new, or second hand in a year or two when the price will be even better) there may be many who simply buy one as a second car.

It isn't even poverty spec, although you will have to remember to put the wipers on yourself!

The next best bargain car will be the Citroën e-C3 but it appears that this won't ship now until January 2025.

Seems there will be whole raft of small electric cars within next 12 months including :
Citroen e-C3
Renault 5
Hyundai Inster
Fiat grande Panda
Alfa Romeo Junior

 

[jon0844]

Seems there will be whole raft of small electric cars within next 12 months including :
Citroen e-C3
Renault 5
Hyundai Inster
Fiat grande Panda
Alfa Romeo Junior

They all need to be priced competitively, and it seems many of them will be.

2025 is going to be a fantastic year, and battery prices are continuing to fall - so car makers can either build lightweight, efficient, cars with smaller batteries or put in larger batteries to appeal to people who still think they need a big range.

As battery anxiety is increasingly being found to be an irrational fear, and most people don't need 200-300 mile ranges, I expect we'll see more smaller battery cars. 7.5 miles per kWh is incredible, and the e-C3 seems to be able to do 5-6 miles. Hopefully the cars listed above will all do pretty well too.

The Dacia Spring will cost some people under £1.90 to charge from 0-100%!

 

[Minilad]

Reviews of the Dacia Spring going live now and it's reported that it can do 7.5 miles per kWh (it's under 1000Kg) making it one of the most efficient EVs ever.

On the latest Octopus tariff you could charge at a rate that makes it less than 1p per mile!

While some may buy this to save money as their main car (either new, or second hand in a year or two when the price will be even better) there may be many who simply buy one as a second car.

It isn't even poverty spec, although you will have to remember to put the wipers on yourself!

The next best bargain car will be the Citroën e-C3 but it appears that this won't ship now until January 2025.

Video of car being driven in France.

I was recently in a Renault / Dacia / Alpine dealership picking up a Megane E-Tech (Which is a brilliant car by the way) I was talking to a salesman about the Spring and he said they have more enquires about that than any other vehicle they sell and he thinks it will sell like hot cakes as long as they can convince normally quite conservative Dacia buyers to switch to an EV

 

[jon0844]

I was recently in a Renault / Dacia / Alpine dealership picking up a Megane E-Tech (Which is a brilliant car by the way) I was talking to a salesman about the Spring and he said they have more enquires about that than any other vehicle they sell and he thinks it will sell like hot cakes as long as they can convince normally quite conservative Dacia buyers to switch to an EV

I think it will sell in incredible numbers (even with badge snobbery). So far leasing prices are crazy high (Lease Loco has a score of around 30% and it's more expensive than a BYD Dolphin or what an MG4 has sometimes gone for) and I think it might depreciate quite a lot (although not so much if demand is that high) but get one that's 6-12 months old and you'll likely save loads.

I also found out that it does 0-30 in around 3 seconds, so for city driving (getting out of a junction onto a busy road, onto a roundabout etc) it sounds absolutely fine despite the scary 0-60 times.

If you did buy one outright, it seems servicing is going to be insanely cheap too. It has an old fashioned handbrake and ignition key, so the more simple the better - and no subscription charges for using things!!

 

[paul1609]

I think it will sell in incredible numbers (even with badge snobbery). So far leasing prices are crazy high (Lease Loco has a score of around 30% and it's more expensive than a BYD Dolphin or what an MG4 has sometimes gone for) and I think it might depreciate quite a lot (although not so much if demand is that high) but get one that's 6-12 months old and you'll likely save loads.

I also found out that it does 0-30 in around 3 seconds, so for city driving (getting out of a junction onto a busy road, onto a roundabout etc) it sounds absolutely fine despite the scary 0-60 times.

If you did buy one outright, it seems servicing is going to be insanely cheap too. It has an old fashioned handbrake and ignition key, so the more simple the better - and no subscription charges for using things!!

MG4s are depreciating so heavily the dealers will be paying prospective owners to take tham off the forecourts by the time they are 3 years old. I suspect thats going to effectively kill the cheap new EV sales.

 

[jon0844]

MG4s are depreciating so heavily the dealers will be paying prospective owners to take tham off the forecourts by the time they are 3 years old. I suspect thats going to effectively kill the cheap new EV sales.

I wasn't aware of that. I knew you could get a nearly new one for quite a discount, but not that they were depreciating that much. Leasing costs have risen recently a bit, and as I'm seeing them everywhere I assumed they're still very popular indeed.

 

[paul1609]

I wasn't aware of that. I knew you could get a nearly new one for quite a discount, but not that they were depreciating that much. Leasing costs have risen recently a bit, and as I'm seeing them everywhere I assumed they're still very popular indeed.

For reasons Im unaware of theres loads of ex lease MG4s going to auction with no reserve. Typically they will be a few months old and 5 to 10k miles. They are selling at sub £20k. Octopus leasing appears to be one of the main vendors

 

[bspahh]

For reasons Im unaware of theres loads of ex lease MG4s going to auction with no reserve. Typically they will be a few months old and 5 to 10k miles. They are selling at sub £20k. Octopus leasing appears to be one of the main vendors

At www.fleetnews.co.uk they have a running costs calculator. It predicts the depreciation in pence per mile. For the cheapest MG4 Hatchback 125kW SE EV 51kWh 5dr Auto which has a P11D price of £26,940, it predicts these future values. These will be the trade in value, not the price that you would pay in a dealer:

Age in years	Miles	Future trade in value	% Depreciation
1	10000	£13639	50.63
2	20000	£10666	39.59
3	30000	£9519	35.33

This is a Youtube video of a recent car auction for some electric cars. Most were 2-3 year old Renault Zoes and Nissan Leafs which went for between £8k and £10k

 

[jon0844]

EV prices are falling quite rapidly and we're seeing unsold cars with high list prices being reduced massively. There are year old cars, unsold, with huge price cuts to shift them. It's a bit of a turbulent time because of this as the market levels out.

A lot of people knew this would happen as the cost of batteries plummeted, and was the reason I leased a petrol car in 2021 to get an EV in 2025. I think my prediction was pretty good, and next year I should have quite a choice of new or second hand cars for the £20-22k mark, with decent leasing rates below £200 a month (and huge savings on fuel bills making the lease even better value).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

Update (17th July), MG Thailand has just announced it is giving a lifetime warranty on its EV batteries for models including the MG4. It will be applied retrospectively for existing owners too, increasing their warranty from 8 years.

No idea if they'll expand it worldwide but I think car makers are now keen to prove their batteries will likely outlast the cars they're installed in.

This should further five reassurance to second hand buyers in years to come.

There will clearly be some T&Cs to look through, but I still think this is gamechanging.

 

[hwl]

For reasons Im unaware of theres loads of ex lease MG4s going to auction with no reserve. Typically they will be a few months old and 5 to 10k miles. They are selling at sub £20k. Octopus leasing appears to be one of the main vendors

MG have been very popular with minicab (especially Uber drivers) in London for the last few years so presumably a number of ex-minicab ones come up for auction at end of lease?