Old fashioned personal discretion…

[alan12345]

I regularly travel by train every month. On this occasion, due to the number of connections, I accidentally got mixed up with off peak and super off peak train company times, departing at say 10:02 instead of 1030. A ticket lady on the train advised me I had to pay for a new ticket of £100 but agreed for me to get off at Leicester and catch another train which would arrive about 30 mins later. I know this was my error, but for the sake of 30mins there just seems to be no kind discretion. The train was completely empty, I owned up to the 30min error due to catching trains with multiple operators, there was no reservations and I was just simply moving from an empty train to another…. Yes, my error for not keeping track of which train in my connections was off peak and super peak, but there was really no passengers around me, not even in the carriage.

Not everyone will probably agree… just excessive jobsworth in my opinion….

P.S. I change to the later train which is more packed yet no one checks my ticket. So EMR hire a ticket inspector for trains with no passengers but then dont bother with busy trains …. Something is amiss

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Discretion was used as she allowed you to leave at the next station even though you were travelling without a valid ticket, this could have been a costly mistake, you should have thanked her not come on here to slate her.

 

[RT4038]

I regularly travel by train every month. On this occasion, due to the number of connections, I accidentally got mixed up with off peak and super off peak train company times, departing at say 10:02 instead of 1030. A ticket lady on the train advised me I had to pay for a new ticket of £100 but agreed for me to get off at Leicester and catch another train which would arrive about 30 mins later. I know this was my error, but for the sake of 30mins there just seems to be no kind discretion. The train was completely empty, I owned up to the 30min error due to catching trains with multiple operators, there was no reservations and I was just simply moving from an empty train to another…. Yes, my error for not keeping track of which train in my connections was off peak and super peak, but there was really no passengers around me, not even in the carriage. Not everyone will probably agree… just excessive jobsworth in my opinion….

Did you accidently get mixed up, or were you trying to travel on the earlier train with a cheaper ticket and hoping to get away with it? How would the ticket checker know? So the ticket checker allowed you to alight (rather than charging the new ticket on the spot) , thereby giving you some discretion, but you complain because you wanted the earlier train at the later train fare. What right do you think you had to that? (because you regularly try this every month, or because you are a regular customer, or what?). Not sure what an empty train has to do with it - if I find an empty train can I automatically have the lowest priced ticket, irrespective of the correct fare?

 

[Titfield]

As I have said before one persons discretion / flexibility is another persons inconsistency.

Should a regular traveller (who should know the rules) be given more benefit of the doubt than someone who rarely travels by rail (and therefore be less likely to know the rules)?

We have seen on posts complaints / references to some passengers being given penalty fares and some being reported for prosecution (though of course we do not have the full details of the exact cases) just the perception by an aggrieved traveller of unequal treatment?

 

[John R]

Discretion was used as she allowed you to leave at the next station even though you were travelling without a valid ticket, this could have been a costly mistake, you should have thanked her not come on here to slate her.

I completely agree.

 

[swt_passenger]

The correct response to use of a ticket at the wrong Peak, Offpeak or Super Offpeak time is to excess to the correct ticket under 9.4? A ‘new ticket’ is not the correct response?

 

[AlterEgo]

The correct response to use of a ticket at the wrong Peak, Offpeak or Super Offpeak time is to excess to the correct ticket under 9.4? A ‘new ticket’ is not the correct response?

An excess could have been sold but it has to be for the whole ticket in both directions. The OP hasn’t advised what tickets they held.

£100 sounds like a penalty fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

I regularly travel by train every month. On this occasion, due to the number of connections, I accidentally got mixed up with off peak and super off peak train company times, departing at say 10:02 instead of 1030. A ticket lady on the train advised me I had to pay for a new ticket of £100 but agreed for me to get off at Leicester and catch another train which would arrive about 30 mins later. I know this was my error, but for the sake of 30mins there just seems to be no kind discretion. The train was completely empty, I owned up to the 30min error due to catching trains with multiple operators, there was no reservations and I was just simply moving from an empty train to another…. Yes, my error for not keeping track of which train in my connections was off peak and super peak, but there was really no passengers around me, not even in the carriage. Not everyone will probably agree… just excessive jobsworth in my opinion….

“I should be allowed to do what I want with no consequences, and staff who ensure I am travelling on the right train I’ve paid for without charging me any extra are jobsworths”. Come on.

 

[RPI]

They have shown discretion, by allowing you to catch the next train. It's at their discretion, not yours.

 

[The exile]

Sounds as if a great of discretion was exercised. You were given the chance to rectify your mistake rather than be hit with the full cost of what you had done. If a blind eye is turned to mistakes, more people are more likely to repeat them.

 

[Wolfie]

Sounds as if a great of discretion was exercised. You were given the chance to rectify your mistake rather than be hit with the full cost of what you had done. If a blind eye is turned to mistakes, more people are more likely to repeat them.

Agreed. Citing the times given by @alan12345 if folk are allowed to break the rules by catching a train at 1012 then why not one at 0952.... or 0932.... or 0912....

The response shown by the guard was reasonable and pragmatic.

 

[D7666]

I cite an example of old fashioned discretion I experienced recently.

On the very first day 805s entered Avanti passenger traffic, wholly unplanned I happened to be at a certain station travelling on a non Avanti ticket waiting for a non Avanti train.

805s appeared first, at the same platform, going in the same general direction with same general stopping pattern. Me being me I do like to have some things on their 'first day' so I just showed the conductor my non Avanti ticket explained I'd like a first trip on 805s .... and they say 'yes' but with the restriction I got off at the next shack. Which I did. It made no difference to my overall journey time, just got me a cranky bit in on the way.

I am not saying where or when it was as don't want get anyone into trouble.

I am sure now someone in here will come along weeping and wailing and gnashing teeth to state some rule alleging illegal etc etc.

As far as I was concerned it was genuine old fashioned discretion.


EDIT to be clear, I showed my ticket on the platform before boarding.

 

[Wolfie]

I cite an example of old fashioned discretion I experienced recently.

On the very first day 805s entered Avanti passenger traffic, wholly unplanned I happened to be at a certain station travelling on a non Avanti ticket waiting for a non Avanti train.

805s appeared first, at the same platform, going in the same general direction with same general stopping pattern. Me being me I do like to have some things on their 'first day' so I just showed the conductor my non Avanti ticket explained I'd like a first trip on 805s .... and they say 'yes' but with the restriction I got off at the next shack. Which I did. It made no difference to my overall journey time, just got me a cranky bit in on the way.

I am not saying where or when it was as don't want get anyone into trouble.

I am sure now someone in here will come along weeping and wailing and gnashing teeth to state some rule alleging illegal etc etc.

As far as I was concerned it was genuine old fashioned discretion.

Again l agree. I doubt, though, that you would have been posting a complaint on here had the Train Manager said no.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Discretion was used as she allowed you to leave at the next station even though you were travelling without a valid ticket

Without knowing the ticket(s) held it is difficult to say for certain what the cost of the mistake should be. But one thing that is certain is that using a ticket that is only not valid due to a time restriction does not attract a Penalty Fare.

A price of exactly £100 sounds like the guard was threatening the OP with the issue of a Penalty Fare. Which is against the rules. So it doesn't like the guard was quite as correct in their dealings with the OP as several people on this thread have indicated.

Although of course the excess may well have been more than £100, depending on the tickets held, so the OP should be grateful that they were allowed to rectify their mistake for free by waiting at Leicester.

 

[D7666]

Again l agree. I doubt, though, that you would have been posting a complaint on here had the Train Manager said no.

Indeed not.

But equally I would not be sending a compliment to the TOC for saying 'yes' as the outcome could be negative for the individual involved.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed not.

But equally I would not be sending a compliment to the TOC for saying 'yes' as the outcome could be negative for the individual involved.

Again, indeed.

The thing is that unless the train is heaving letting you ride one stop to get the new experience is absolutely no skin off their nose and might prompt you to buy a longer journey in the future.

 

[Bluejays]

Discretion was used as she allowed you to leave at the next station even though you were travelling without a valid ticket, this could have been a costly mistake, you should have thanked her not come on here to slate her.

This 100%. Unfortunately for many people the word discretion appears to mean 'do what I want you to do for me'.

 

[Undiscovered]

Discretion went when electronic tickets became a thing.

With paper, no one knows if I've seen that ticket and, with just a cursory look, any ticket, depending on my mood, is valid for travel.

With electronic tickets, it's immediately flagged that the ticket is incorrect, and the machine is now prompting me for a response. This response is recorded and audited and, if it's not the correct response, I find a shiny 'Please explain...' note in my pigeon hole two or three days later.

So I have to write a report and file that, then await any further outcomes of that.....
So, with an electronic ticket, the easiest thing now for me to do is exactly what I'm trained to, regardless if it's a genuine mistake, you're a fare dodger or anything else. You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

 

[John R]

Out of interest, if you do choose to allow travel on a discretionary basis, is it possible to mark that ticket as “passed for travel”, so that any further inspections on the journey don’t have the “but I was told it was ok” issue?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Discretion went when electronic tickets became a thing.

With paper, no one knows if I've seen that ticket and, with just a cursory look, any ticket, depending on my mood, is valid for travel.

With electronic tickets, it's immediately flagged that the ticket is incorrect, and the machine is now prompting me for a response. This response is recorded and audited and, if it's not the correct response, I find a shiny 'Please explain...' note in my pigeon hole two or three days later.

So I have to write a report and file that, then await any further outcomes of that.....
So, with an electronic ticket, the easiest thing now for me to do is exactly what I'm trained to, regardless if it's a genuine mistake, you're a fare dodger or anything else. You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

So your saying your TOC allows no discretion at all?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

Which, of course, quite likely has the effect of turning most ticket-checking staff into unhelpful "jobsworths".

 

[Titfield]

Which, of course, quite likely has the effect of turning most ticket-checking staff into unhelpful "jobsworths".

But surely the TTI's line manager reading the reason inputted will be able to differentiate between cases where the discretion was / wasnt appropriate?

To me this gets back to the point about changing the fare structure to reduce "friction" between customers and staff.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Which, of course, quite likely has the effect of turning most ticket-checking staff into unhelpful "jobsworths".

Nope, makes them less likely to help as they have to explain their actions, and fill in a report. Nobody is losing a job for discretion in a situation that can be explained. Not jobsworths, but you find people who stand out and excel and those who just want to take their pay and go home.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

That sounds to me like the fairly standard definition / meaning / explanation (for a jobsworth) of "...it's more than my job's worth".

 

[Haywain]

Not jobsworths, but you find people who stand out and excel and those who just want to take their pay and go home.

Just people who prefer the option of making the passenger's life more difficult rather than their own?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Just people who prefer the option of making the passenger's life more difficult rather than their own?

That's one view. I'm not sure I was saying that... but I suppose if the cap fits

 

[AlterEgo]

You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

That’s not been my experience, but if it helps you justify not using any discretion you no doubt have, so be it.

 

[Bluejays]

I'm slightly surprised at the idea that please explains would appear for using discretion on tickets. Heard it several times, so it must be happening at several depots and Tocs. But it just seems like a monumental waste of management time. I'd suggest that the depots involved could save a lot of money by getting rid of at least half of their management teams. Really not a productive thing to be doing. I'd be getting 25+ please explains every shift if this applied in my toc

 

[Deafdoggie]

So basically TOCs are saying "get paper tickets because we will sack staff that show discretion" If they start printing codes on paper tickets it's easy enough to crease the paper or biro on it so the code won't scan. Discretion can then be shown, as there's no scan to record it.
If it's true that TOCs are asking to explain discretion, then they'd better stock up on paper ticket stock.

 

[jamiearmley]

I think it is more that TOCs are cottoning onto the fact that there are a significant number of people checking tickets who pay no attention whatsoever to their validity. This is not 'discretion'.

Scan data is also revealing that there are countless tickets being used each day at the wrong time, or on the wrong train, or with the wrong operator - A problem far worse now with the proliferation of self-purchased tickets than it ever was previously.

A ticket is either valid or it isn't. (For the avoidance of doubt- and because I have watched similar threads explode on this forum before- A ticket which has only become valid due to some disruption or other NRCOT entitlement IS a valid ticket).

'Discretion' should never really be needed.

If bad things have happened, and I allow you to travel - that's not discretion, that's your absolute right. I will do all I can to minimise further disruption for you.

If you just want to travel early on your advance ticket for no good reason and I let you - that's not discretion, that's me being lazy and avoiding potential conflict.

Get on my train and start telling me I have discretion and I ought to use it? You will get treated absolutely in accordance with the contract you have made with the railway, with everything good, and bad, that might entail.

The OP should have been excessed to the correct fare. They were lucky they were given the opportunity to leave the service without paying the difference owed.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and there's some interesting ones on this thread - but always remember, the people who lose out are the ones who take care to follow the rules and end up paying over the odds, not those who take a chance and hope for 'discretion'. And in my experience, it's those who can least afford it who end up paying the most.

 

[sheff1]

Discretion went when electronic tickets became a thing.

With paper, no one knows if I've seen that ticket and, with just a cursory look, any ticket, depending on my mood, is valid for travel.

With electronic tickets, it's immediately flagged that the ticket is incorrect, and the machine is now prompting me for a response. This response is recorded and audited and, if it's not the correct response, I find a shiny 'Please explain...' note in my pigeon hole two or three days later.

So I have to write a report and file that, then await any further outcomes of that.....
So, with an electronic ticket, the easiest thing now for me to do is exactly what I'm trained to, regardless if it's a genuine mistake, you're a fare dodger or anything else. You all get treated the same because, if I don't, then I could end up losing my job.

Ah, the perceived infallibility of technology. Frequent readers will have seen many reports of station barriers rejecting tickets as invalid (incorrect), when said tickets are actually completely valid, and the 'technology is never wrong' responses from some staff. I am unconvinced that mobile ticket checkers will never wrongly flag tickets.

Of course in many cases even using a simple Advance ticket on a different train to which it was booked can be perfectly valid. One would hope that machines would flag a ticket as requiring further checking rather than point blank stating it is invalid, but that seems not to be the way 'the railway' implements things.

For the avoidance of doubt, I agree with most posters that the OP (who I note has not responded further) was offered discrection and should be grateful it was.