Minimum connection time at London St Pancras - Southeastern <> East Midlands

[PavlosA]

Hi all

I'm booking a journey from Ebbsfleet International to Sheffield in late September on a Friday. Am considering getting a First Class Advance on the London to Sheffield portion, and need to book tickets separately. I couldn't see anything while searching, so wanted to check what the minimum connection time would be between trains at St Pancras. This is because I'm planning on getting the first off-peak train from Ebbsfleet, which should arrive at STP at 10.19, and the train I want to book to Sheffield leaves at 10.32. As I'm booking an Advance I want to make sure if there's trouble with the first leg, I can use the ticket on the next service. Also, is my assumption correct here?

If the connection time isn't OK it's no problem as I'll probably book the next, it's just a bit pricier and I'm already spending a bit more in order to split and get a First Class. The full journey on one Standard Advance ticket compares like this:

From

To

Class

Journey Price

From

To

Class

Journey Price

Total Price

EBD

10.20

STP

10.38

Standard

STP

11.02

SHF

13.01

Standard

£30.50

EBD

10.00

STP

10.19

Standard

£13.95 (Railcard)

STP

10.32

SHF

12.42

First

£32.50

£46.45

EBD

10.00

STP

10.19

Standard

£13.95 (Railcard)

STP

11.02

SHF

13.01

First

£37.50

£51.45

Considering spending the extra £16 as I know you get snacks/drinks/sandwich on the service.

Still waiting for the return Sunday advance to be released

Thanks!

 

[MrJeeves]

I couldn't see anything while searching, so wanted to check what the minimum connection time would be between trains at St Pancras.

BRTimes is useful for this: https://www.brtimes.com/!board?stn=STP&show=info&date=20240711

LONDON ST PANCRAS is classified as a LARGE interchange station.​

Minimum Connection Time is 15 minutes.​

Your example is only 13 minutes, so would not be a valid connection.

 

[PavlosA]

Wow that was quick! Thanks! So it would need to be valid in order to be able to use the next service if missed...

But blimey, I could do it in four! OK, that now leaves me just to decide whether to spend £30.50 Standard all the way, or £51.45 for 1st, or maybe just risk it...

 

[redreni]

But blimey, I could do it in four!

I know. Think yourself lucky your train isn't leaving from Kings Cross - the minimum connection time then would be 31 minutes for a connection you could make in maybe 6 minutes.

For some reason, most people seem to have no concerns whatsoever about excessive MCTs that can make even journeys involving some of the UK's fastest trains slower door-to-door than driving (or, at least, not quicker enough to justify the fare). As your example illustrates, the MCT only has to be a couple of minutes longer than is really necessary and it can rule out a desired connection, which means waiting for the next train which might:

• add quite a lot of waiting time to the journey, and/or
• mean taking a slower train, and/or
• due to unpredictable 'airline style' pricing, may be substantially more expensive.

Any one or more of which factors could easily be enough to drive away business from the railway. But I'm assured it's a non-issue and there is no need to look again at MCTs in London to ensure the amount of padding is consistent and proportionate..

 

[Haywain]

But blimey, I could do it in four!

East Midlands Railway close their barriers two minutes before departure, so four minutes really wouldn't be enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

the MCT only has to be a couple of minutes longer than is really necessary

Define "really necessary" and who you are defining it for.

 

[Hadders]

I could do it in four!

I know. Think yourself lucky your train isn't leaving from Kings Cross - the minimum connection time then would be 31 minutes for a connection you could make in maybe 6 minutes.

For some reason, most people seem to have no concerns whatsoever about excessive MCTs that can make even journeys involving some of the UK's fastest trains slower door-to-door than driving (or, at least, not quicker enough to justify the fare). As your example illustrates, the MCT only has to be a couple of minutes longer than is really necessary and it can rule out a desired connection, which means waiting for the next train which might:

• add quite a lot of waiting time to the journey, and/or
• mean taking a slower train, and/or
• due to unpredictable 'airline style' pricing, may be substantially more expensive.

Any one or more of which factors could easily be enough to drive away business from the railway. But I'm assured it's a non-issue and there is no need to look again at MCTs in London to ensure the amount of padding is consistent and proportionate..

Many 'normal' people would say 15 minutes is not enough! I do agree that 31 minutes between St Pancras and Kings Cross is excessive.

Just to be clear, I would've thought that the MCT has to account for someone walking slightly slower than average, alighting from the rear of a 12-car train and who is unfamiliar with the station layout. There might also be a few minutes delay witht he incoming train. Also bear in mind that multiple changes of level are involved - for example to go from Thameslink to EMR at St Pancras involves three escalators and two gatelines. And the escalator to the EMT platforms is a bit if a hike involving abiut of a double back.

My record is Thameslink to EMR in three minutes but that was by being in the optimum position and knowling exactly where to go. 'Aunt Mable' isn't going to achieve that, or a family with young children.

 

[PavlosA]

Fair enough. I guess complaining that it just doesn't suit my preferred journey is bit short-sighted.

 

[redreni]

Define "really necessary" and who you are defining it for.

It doesn't matter who I define it for - there is no single, consistent method for defining how much time is needed for connections that would lead to the massively inconsistent MCTs we currently have in London.

I'm quite happy to work it out in the way Hadders suggests. But I don't think it's necessary to account for edge cases where the person has a propensity to get lost and has a walking speed four times slower than average and is carrying two suitcases and a bassoon and can't work out that being at the very rear of a train coming into a terminus isn't necessarily going to be conducive to a quick transfer - such a passenger can and should choose a connection that gives them a connection time they are comfortable with. Nobody is forcing the MCTs on anyone.

The key word is minimum.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

Many 'normal' people would say 15 minutes is not enough! I do agree that 31 minutes between St Pancras and Kings Cross is excessive.

Just to be clear, I would've thought that the MCT has to account for someone walking slightly slower than average, alighting from the rear of a 12-car train and who is unfamiliar with the station layout. There might also be a few minutes delay witht he incoming train. Also bear in mind that multiple changes of level are involved - for example to go from Thameslink to EMR at St Pancras involves three escalators and two gatelines. And the escalator to the EMT platforms is a bit if a hike involving abiut of a double back.

My record is Thameslink to EMR in three minutes but that was by being in the optimum position and knowling exactly where to go. 'Aunt Mable' isn't going to achieve that, or a family with young children.

Bolded part - there might be a couple of hours' delay with the incoming train. The MCT isn't there for delays! It's there to allow enough time to make the connection if the inbound and outbound trains are both on time.

 

[blueberry11]

Unless its an advance ticket, you can board any train before the MCT is up, its just that if you miss the train you intend to take, then delay repay is not possible unless the train (which you didn't intend to take) was delayed further.

On the flip side, the MCT at Colchester is only 4 min (rather than the usual 5) meaning to go from Norwich to Stratford, its really tight and its not really cross platform either since passengers have to walk behind the train they originally took (from what I can remember)

 

[JBuchananGB]

What is your objection to taking the 0950 from Ebbsfleet arrive STP 1008?
You have assumed that the first available off-peak train is the 1000 from Ebbsfleet, but Senior Railcard validity starts from when an off-peak fare is valid and the first such train is the 0950, because tickets for that train (e.g. Off-peak day return) have code C4, which is trains arriving in London after 1000. But maybe you have a different Railcard, not valid before 1000.

 

[redreni]

Unless its an advance ticket, you can board any train before the MCT is up, its just that if you miss the train you intend to take, then delay repay is not possible unless the train (which you didn't intend to take) was delayed further.

On the flip side, the MCT at Colchester is only 4 min (rather than the usual 5) meaning to go from Norwich to Stratford, its really tight and its not really cross platform either since passengers have to walk behind the train they originally took (from what I can remember)

Quite - there's a flip side where some MCTs are really tight and absolutely don't account for any of the sorts of factors people will cite as justifications for (for example) the 31 minute MCT between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

 

[MrJeeves]

Quite - there's a flip side where some MCTs are really tight and absolutely don't account for any of the sorts of factors people will cite as justifications for (for example) the 31 minute MCT between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

The issue is that I would say 15 mins at each KGX and STP makes sense for a change at those stations, but for a change between the two stations 31 mins is ridiculous.

The way to work around this would be something like a "negative" fixed link time between the two stations, but that would be ridiculous and not possible with the current spec for this data, I'd assume.

Alternatively, expand the TOC specific interchange time overrides to allow overriding the interchange time for fixed link interchanges. That would mean you could drop it to, say, 8 mins for train to walk or vice versa at each station, and bump the walk time up to 4 mins to make that realistic, resulting in a total of 20 mins interchange time.

 

[JBuchananGB]

You don't mention your return plans, but I notice there is an interesting ticket offered called a Weekender which for £14.95 will include your Friday 0950 Ebbsfleet to STP, and return on any train on the Saturday or Sunday.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the real issue is that, until very recently, most (if not all) journey planners did not have the scope to increase the connection time. So you were stuck with what you were given which means it really does need to account for Granny Ethel making her annual trip from Botherington-Under-Smythe to Waterside-On-Sea to the grandchildren with a couple of change to make on the way whilst lugging her suitcase behind her. Granny Ethel isn't going to utilising the perfect door positioning or sprinting along the optimal route between platforms (or stations).

Now that the ability to specify additional change time is available on at least one platform (the Forum's and other version of Trainsplit) I would, personally, argue that a review of the MCTs and a tightening in some cases would not go amiss with the ability to allow more interchange time made more prominent. Indeed even if the MCTs weren't reduced from the Granny Ethel friendly current timings I think the ability to tweak the interchange time should be more prominent. It was only a few weeks ago I recall someone posting here was a bit worried about a connection that they felt was a bit tight but weren't aware they could have added a bit more time.

But until that day in reality we're stuck with the annoyingly long interchange times in many cases (but especially across London).

 

[redreni]

I think the real issue is that, until very recently, most (if not all) journey planners did not have the scope to increase the connection time. So you were stuck with what you were given which means it really does need to account for Granny Ethel making her annual trip from Botherington-Under-Smythe to Waterside-On-Sea to the grandchildren with a couple of change to make on the way whilst lugging her suitcase behind her.

Yet, at many smaller interchange stations up and down the country, Granny Ethel is not accommodated and never has been.

[...] until that day in reality we're stuck with the annoyingly long interchange times in many cases (but especially across London).

Those of us who insist, to the point of being a bit obtuse, on travelling by train are.

Everyone else just puts their journey into the journey planner, sees that it costs more and takes longer than driving and makes their decision accordingly. Often in cases where a very slightly less inefficient connection in London might have made the offer significantly more appealing.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Although all this discussion about MCTs may be hypothetically interesting, it did nothing to help the OP, the nub of whose problem was incorrectly believing that the first off-peak train from Ebbsfleet, on which Senior Railcard discount is available, is the 1000, when in fact it is the 0950. So he can catch the desired 1032 service to Sheffield for the best possible combined fare of £46.45, confident that if the 0950 is so delayed that he misses the valid connection his Advance will be accepted on the next available EMR service.

 

[PavlosA]

You don't mention your return plans, but I notice there is an interesting ticket offered called a Weekender which for £14.95 will include your Friday 0950 Ebbsfleet to STP, and return on any train on the Saturday or Sunday.

Yes! Thank you! Have used this before but it completely slipped my mind!

Although all this discussion about MCTs may be hypothetically interesting, it did nothing to help the OP, the nub of whose problem was incorrectly believing that the first off-peak train from Ebbsfleet, on which Senior Railcard discount is available, is the 1000, when in fact it is the 0950. So he can catch the desired 1032 service to Sheffield for the best possible combined fare of £46.45, confident that if the 0950 is so delayed that he misses the valid connection his Advance will be accepted on the next available EMR service.

Should have specified it's a Network Railcard. Now perhaps the same rules apply but I believe I can only use on journeys from 10am (no easement for Gravesend). Also, the rail planner only offers discount from the 10.00 service.

 

[Hadders]

Should have specified it's a Network Railcard. Now perhaps the same rules apply but I believe I can only use on journeys from 10am (no easement for Gravesend). Also, the rail planner only offers discount from the 10.00 service.

That’s correct. Network Railcard discounted tickets cannot be used before 10:00 on weekdays. There are a handful of exceptions but none from Ebbsfeet.

 

[PavlosA]

You don't mention your return plans, but I notice there is an interesting ticket offered called a Weekender which for £14.95 will include your Friday 0950 Ebbsfleet to STP, and return on any train on the Saturday or Sunday.

And I've only just noticed your comment on the earlier train! Weekenders run from 0930. Darn it, I went and booked the 1102 from STP! I always book too early...

Edit: Actually the 0950 Weekender price (and 0935) is quoted as £22.70... oh because the after 1000 includes Railcard discount.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It would have depended on your return plans. You could have got a £22.70 weekender without railcard, instead of two x £13.95 singles one for out, and one for return if returning Saturday or Sunday. You were only asking about a one way trip.

 

[PavlosA]

Ok so here's another query on the journey. Coming back Sunday 29th Sep - Sheffield to London Any - there are only currently a couple of available advances available (11.52 / 13.10). Why would these be the only ones released so far?

Also, trainsplit offers change at Doncaster at various times during the day, even cheaper, but national rail says ticket not available yet? I know I can buy the advance from Doncaster on its own, just don't understand why national rail doesn't offer it...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

It would have depended on your return plans. You could have got a £22.70 weekender without railcard, instead of two x £13.95 singles one for out, and one for return if returning Saturday or Sunday. You were only asking about a one way trip.

Yeah, thanks. I can grab the off peak discounted Weekender now.

There's always too many variables!

 

[mangyiscute]

I often get across London much faster than the suggested times (for example King's Cross to Paddington is given 45 mins, I often do it in under 20 mins) and I find usually the train manager will let you on an earlier train if you find and ask them (or in the case of travelling to Reading, I just board the first train and I've never had any issues)

 

[yorkie]

Hi all

I'm booking a journey from Ebbsfleet International to Sheffield in late September on a Friday. Am considering getting a First Class Advance on the London to Sheffield portion, and need to book tickets separately.

Is there a particular reason why you need to do this?

I recommend booking it as one journey if at all possible; our ticketing site will work out the best combination of fares, and ensure the itinerary is a valid one.

 

[PavlosA]

Is there a particular reason why you need to do this?

I recommend booking it as one journey if at all possible; our ticketing site will work out the best combination of fares, and ensure the itinerary is a valid one.

Only because National Rail doesn't offer up the First Class Advanced at all unless I split.

 

[MrJeeves]

Only because National Rail doesn't offer up the First Class Advanced at all unless I split.

So why not use the forum's site?

 

[PavlosA]

So why not use the forum's site?

The site wants to charge me £66.89 for a First Class Advance. Because of the saving it finds, which I found on my own...

 

[robbeech]

The site wants to charge me £66.89 for a First Class Advance. Because of the saving it finds, which I found on my own...

The forum would still certainly appreciate you purchasing from its site, even if you added 2 tickets to your basket separately to avoid the small fee for the split you found yourself.

 

[Watershed]

The site wants to charge me £66.89 for a First Class Advance. Because of the saving it finds, which I found on my own...

You can add the tickets to your basket separately on the forum's site if you want to avoid the "share of savings" fee.

 

[PavlosA]

Ahh ok. Will do for everything going forward.