Dartmouth Steam Railway

[SuperLuke2334]

A couple of things that I think make the Dartmouth Steam Railway more likely to stick with running steam into the future in my opinion.

1) They’ve diversified into running the various ferries that they now own in the tourist honeypot that they operate in; meaning that their fuel costs for everything they run, taken as a whole are more spread out.
2) A big part of their shtick is the Agatha Christie pre war chocolate box cover gleaming steam locomotives thing. It’s what they’ve always been and it’s what’s made them incredibly financially successful over the years.

On a wider note, it is disappointing that they don’t now stop at the intermediate stations, they do however take a lot of traffic off the roads into Dartmouth and bring a huge amount of tourists into the town. It’s also a wonderful section of line with a bit of everything on it.

Personally I love it, even if the stations are fairly rubbish (barring Kingswear which still has something rather nice about it).

Is there any reason why they don't stop at the intermediate stations any more? When I visited in 2018 (I think), there were quite a lot of people using each station.

 

[John Luxton]

I would nationalise the line, make it part of the national network and operate it as an extension of the 'Devon Metro'. It could play an important part in the transport of the area - the whole Torbay area is infested with diabolical traffic all year round. The railway had a cracking deal when BR flogged it off for a song - it included the Royal Dart Hotel and the Paignton Picture House. The heritage appeal is limited in my view - an ugly station at Paignton, the blot at Churston and tatty rolling stock.

NO. There is more to the Dart Valley Railway Ltd than just the railway they also operate buses, pleasure 'steamers' and a bus service.

Back in 1973 my late father in a very generous gesture bought me £100 worth of Dart Valley Railway shares.

Once the company had divested itself of the Buckfastleigh line, the dividends to roll in and did so until Covid came along. Once all the borrowing is paid off I dare say the dividends will start to flow again.

The though of it being nationalised horrifies me (as does any form of nationalisation) - BUT - I wouldn't object to GWR being allowed to operate commuter trains in the morning and evening with perhaps investment by Network Rail to bring the section up to required standards and to permit faster running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

In view of the comments about being a railway that targets the day trip market, how long will it be before the steam service is replaced by diesel locos and the steam locos only come out on special days? It is a very scenic route to travel. For the journey, it makes little difference what the motive power is provided that you are travelling in a hauled coach. It is still possible to create a lot of the ambiance of earlier times by the rolling stock that you use and the way it is presented. The product would still be distinct from a modern train - most of which are dmus or emus - and still have the scenery.

Llangollen Railway have upped the railcar and diesel offering since the Trust replaced the insolvent plc. I spotted a FB post the other day commenting on how successful this change in traction emphasis had been in the 3 years since its rebirth. Steam is operated but it is usually at weekends.

 

[Cowley]

Is there any reason why they don't stop at the intermediate stations any more? When I visited in 2018 (I think), there were quite a lot of people using each station.

I’m not actually sure? There’s also the new halt at Greenway and it seems like a strange decision to build the station and then not use it, but maybe they’re concentrating on making some money back at the moment after a few difficult years.

I wonder if @MarkyT might have any thoughts?

 

[D Williams]

This is a fully commercial operation , no volunteers, so you have to consider the costs of staffing the stations and keeping them to an appropriate standard to comply will all sorts of regulations. The current system of working was introduced post Covid has been continued.

 

[John Luxton]

The SMR now charges a substantial premium to travel on its steam services. Most people prefer not to pay the premium, and are happy to travel behind a diesel. I think other preserved railways are going to be following this example, sooner or later. Hopefully before they go bust.

I spent last weekend in North Wales and having not been up the SMR since 2014 I decided to book a steam trip. Sold out until the end of August. I tried booking this a week before I wished to travel. Turning the clock back to 2014 when I last travelled I booked the steam trip just a couple of days before travel when I had a reasonable idea of what the weather would be like and that was in the summer school holidays. No problem getting a ticket.

It isn't just he steam which I think visitors to Snowdon find attractive but the seating in the steam carriages is lower density (2 + 1) and consequently more comfortable to travel in. Not only is it steam but it is also the first class option space wise.

On my 2014 visit I noted the diesel services were packed as a commuter train - no pleasure in that.

 

[Cowley]

This is a fully commercial operation , no volunteers, so you have to consider the costs of staffing the stations and keeping them to an appropriate standard to comply will all sorts of regulations. The current system of working was introduced post Covid has been continued.

These are very good points.

 

[theblackwatch]

The vast majority of railtours that visit Kingswear are Saphos steam tours which cater more for the daytripper and luxury dining market than pure enthusiasts. I'm sure the railway does well from access fees paid by the operator of these tours though (LSL).

With Jeremy Hosking of LSL being the railway's largest significant shareholder (at 31.92%) as of the end of 2022.

 

[Llanigraham]

I’m not actually sure? There’s also the new halt at Greenway and it seems like a strange decision to build the station and then not use it, but maybe they’re concentrating on making some money back at the moment after a few difficult years.

I wonder if @MarkyT might have any thoughts?

I wonder if the closure of Greenway Halt had anything to do with the NT taking away the electric minibus that used to ferry you to the House?
It was certainly the easiest way of getting there as parking at the House is limited.

 

[MarkyT]

I’m not actually sure? There’s also the new halt at Greenway and it seems like a strange decision to build the station and then not use it, but maybe they’re concentrating on making some money back at the moment after a few difficult years.

I wonder if @MarkyT might have any thoughts?

Greenway Halt is a long walk from the associated visitor attraction, nearly a mile away. I suspect the railway had a hard time competing with the bus that ran from Torquay and Paignton straight to the main entrance, but even that doesn't run regularly now, with specials only being laid on for occasional events today. It was always operationally difficult with the platform on a steep incline. Trains weren't booked to stop in the up direction as they didn't want to have to restart on the hill. People going back to Paignton had to board a down train and travel via Kingswear. Today official advice from the attraction is to go by train to Kingwear then board a boat from Dartmouth to Greenway's own pier, which is quite close to the house and has a golf cart shuttle for those less able, which also goes to the small public car park (which must be pre-booked before arrival).

This is a fully commercial operation , no volunteers, so you have to consider the costs of staffing the stations and keeping them to an appropriate standard to comply will all sorts of regulations. The current system of working was introduced post Covid has been continued.

The arrangement of not stopping at intermediate stations was introduced when operations resumed after lockdowns but still with restriction. Similar measures were introduced on a number of heritage lines at the time, mainly so no surprise overcrowding or customer disappointment could possibly occur if a coach party suddenly turned up unexpectedly at an intermediate stop after the train already departed, sold out (at reduced capacity) from the terminus. The number of tickets sold at the intermediate stops was always low however, and an important consideration is the cost of running the ticket offices with paid staff. I think there's a good chance that at least one of the stations will be reopened regularly in the future. The railway lacks car parking, something that might be solved potentially by improving facilities at Goodrington Sands where there are vast seasonal parking lots operated by the council near the railway. In the past, the railway has also suggested improvements to allow stepless access to the platform used typically in both directions (on the down side to the east side of the line). That would be fairly easy to implement with a new walkway at the south end to one of the car parks, subject to agreement with the council and other landowners. Greenway is discussed above and I think won't reopen. Churston is also less likely to reopen as I feel it's never been a popular destination or traffic source for holidaymakers. The peak high season service requires a stop for passing though and when a mainline excursion is running the the regular service often has to stop there to let it pass. As a public transport station, however, it is more compelling with a great interchange to the frequent interurban #12 bus route on the main road to Brixham.

NO. There is more to the Dart Valley Railway Ltd than just the railway they also operate buses, pleasure 'steamers' and a bus service.

Back in 1973 my late father in a very generous gesture bought me £100 worth of Dart Valley Railway shares.

What a lovely gift!

The though of it being nationalised horrifies me (as does any form of nationalisation) - BUT - I wouldn't object to GWR being allowed to operate commuter trains in the morning and evening with perhaps investment by Network Rail to bring the section up to required standards and to permit faster running.

I wouldn't be totally horrified, but only if operating rights into Paignton for a remaining private steam operation were absolutely guaranteed. I think your solution is better though, and there's absolutely no reason why a public transport service couldn't be extended over another infrastructure owner's assets with the correct agreements and upgrades in place. During the day, while the steam is operating, I think DMU service could also extend as far as Churston for Brixham. With an additional intermediate signal section on the single line, the DMU could follow the steam (or vice versa), 'flighted' in the same direction. An extra platform would probably be required for the DMU to lay over at Churston. I suggest it could be Paignton side of the main road bridge alongside the golf course as there are ramped paths and an underpass crossing the road there which could provide excellent interchange to the bus stops:

Llangollen Railway have upped the railcar and diesel offering since the Trust replaced the insolvent plc. I spotted a FB post the other day commenting on how successful this change in traction emphasis had been in the 3 years since its rebirth. Steam is operated but it is usually at weekends.

I think there's a proportion of the market who still love and demand steam, especially among the non-enthusiast contingent, but it's difficult today with the price and availability of coal. A mix is probably optimal.

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I wonder if the closure of Greenway Halt had anything to do with the NT taking away the electric minibus that used to ferry you to the House?
It was certainly the easiest way of getting there as parking at the House is limited.

There's a 'golf cart' style vehicle that still shuttles between the car park, the house and the river quay, all on private roads inside the estate. Was that the same one extended (I don't know if that vehicle is legal on public roads).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Wow this has a lot of posts and I have to say I get the point about galas but they are in their form of business. I am now hearing lots of 'Devon Metro' and nationalisation theorys and i love the line and know it back to front but it could be more use to communities if it went to Kingswear as NR. They already have a through ticket but not a running GWR train there. I would make it half and half so GWR to Goodrington like a park and ride or Churston to meet halfway and DSR still have steam trains but not in the way they do now

If GWR only went to Goodrington, the existing parallel running could be maintained easily by converting one of the carriage sidings to a passenger line. Starting from Paignton is important to the commercial success of the steam line. While Goodrington could have a big car park it would be much less visible to many holidaymakers than its prominent location between the beach and town center right by the bus and rail station. There are few places where a railway can park a steam loco in steam right in the heart of a major holiday town.

 

[Llanigraham]

Some interesting comments above.

On the few times we have been on the railway we have used Churston as a start and finish point as that was near the caravan site we were on and the parking there was easier than at Paignton, a town that no longer inspires me to visit. The only reason we have gone to Paignton was because that is where the bus took us when using one of their "Round Robin" tickets. We parked at the pub at the Station approach and they always seemed quite happy as long as we bought something from the bar and left before their evening rush (unless we booked a meal then)

The NT service from Greenway Halt was an electric 12(?) seater minibus, registered as a road vehicle as it used the public road access, and was an excellent way of getting up to the House. As has been said it is a fair walk. I suspect it has now been moved to another NT site. I note that there have been complaints about the time limited parking at the House putting visitors off.

 

[D Williams]

I'm in full agreement with you about Paignton! I suspect that Churston lost the reason for it's existence when the Brixham branch closed. There is not a lot there. Goodrington with its dilapidated and locked buildings takes me back to the 1960's. I wonder what the DSR will do with it?

 

[SwindonManor]

I’ve never really understood this, as once on the train there’s little if any perceptible difference, and I see little evidence that the average punter enjoys listening to the specific sound of steam judging by how it’s only enthusiasts rather than the general public who tend to open windows.

But certainly agree that people seem to want to say “I travelled on a steam train”, and in the case of Dartmouth they do heavily promote the steam aspect. So in this case I don’t think diesel would work well.

It’s always been the case that for enthusiasts there’s the South Devon Railway just down the road, which offers an experience more akin to your average preserved railway.

That said, I’d love the prospect of a diesel journey on the Dartmouth Railway. Even something like a Thumper would be very evocative, if not particularly prototypical.

Absoultely. South Devon is a very nice line I have only been there a few times sadly though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Running Galas outside the holiday/tourist periods would surely provide increased traffic and revenue at otherwise quiet times - Sweat the assets!



I disagree also, the steam locos are a major attraction; At my last visit to the Railway they actually posed the loco (a Manor) for a few minutes while running round for the passengers to take photos! I doubt a diesel would be anything like as interesting to them.

The Manor there is a sweetie let me tell you that, it has a very loud GWR whistle and an amazing chuff it is probably *apart from Goliath the 52XX* my favourite loco.

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As a comparison, given that it's operational ethos is similar to the DSR , would the Haverthwaite and Lakeside be considered an "enthusiast's railway"?

I visited once and adored it, it may be a business but I see it as mini DSR. It has a more heritage function than the DSR and while I loved it as an enthusiast people have different views.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

I’m not actually sure? There’s also the new halt at Greenway and it seems like a strange decision to build the station and then not use it, but maybe they’re concentrating on making some money back at the moment after a few difficult years.

I wonder if @MarkyT might have any thoughts?

Well I asked and they said because 'we can run more trains' which made m upset due to the business coming into play but I am starting to change my views there are a lot of good posts and wise views here keep them coming *even if the amount of replies in this post gets to 1000 haha*

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

I'm in full agreement with you about Paignton! I suspect that Churston lost the reason for it's existence when the Brixham branch closed. There is not a lot there. Goodrington with its dilapidated and locked buildings takes me back to the 1960's. I wonder what the DSR will do with it?

Adding to this reply spiral, Goodrington is as good as dead with grass growing all over the platforms. The only way to get it to survive would be a full refurb which I do not see happening. Churston is still in good shape and trains stop but not to let passengers on/off it's only for the passing on 2 train days. They could reopen it because it would add like 1 minute to the timetable but staff costs and repairs could see it re-close. It is good for the Train of Lights though because there are snow machines and displays there when TOL is on.

 

[bramling]

I spent last weekend in North Wales and having not been up the SMR since 2014 I decided to book a steam trip. Sold out until the end of August. I tried booking this a week before I wished to travel. Turning the clock back to 2014 when I last travelled I booked the steam trip just a couple of days before travel when I had a reasonable idea of what the weather would be like and that was in the summer school holidays. No problem getting a ticket.

It isn't just he steam which I think visitors to Snowdon find attractive but the seating in the steam carriages is lower density (2 + 1) and consequently more comfortable to travel in. Not only is it steam but it is also the first class option space wise.

On my 2014 visit I noted the diesel services were packed as a commuter train - no pleasure in that.

This is exactly it, if one looks at Trip Adviser the SMR get a lot of stick for the diesel-hauled trains being very cramped. The steam offers a much better experience, so I’m not sure we can infer much.

I suspect a lot of people just want to go up Snowdon, if they get to do it on a steam train then it’s a bonus.

Quite crazy to be fully booked that far ahead though. I remember doing it in 2018 and booking just a day or two before, and pretty much having pick of where to sit.

 

[Titfield]

The though of it being nationalised horrifies me (as does any form of nationalisation) - BUT - I wouldn't object to GWR being allowed to operate commuter trains in the morning and evening with perhaps investment by Network Rail to bring the section up to required standards and to permit faster running.

I think this would be completely impractical for a number of reasons:

(1) the very different fare structures and levels of heritage railways and the national network
(2) the acceptance of railcards and similar products
(3) the different terms and conditions of carriage including for example delay repay.
(4) The commuter service would have to operate throughout the year thus there would be no close down period for works.

 

[D7666]

I wholeheartedly disagree; the vast majority of the general public wants steam locomotives on a preserved railway, and emotions can run high when steam is replaced by diesel.

tell that to the snowdon mountain railway

 

[MarkyT]

I think this would be completely impractical for a number of reasons:

(1) the very different fare structures and levels of heritage railways and the national network
(2) the acceptance of railcards and similar products
(3) the different terms and conditions of carriage including for example delay repay.
(4) The commuter service would have to operate throughout the year thus there would be no close down period for works.

All of these could be worked around with appropriate special agreements and conditions of carriage. It's clearly very important to protect the revenue of the steam service so cheaper ordinary tickets wouldn't be valid on the steam trains during the day, though they might be made valid on the regular Stagecoach local buses instead. Steam finishes around 5pm and after around 7pm there isn't even any bus service to or from Kingswear or Dartmouth so a couple of evening DMU round trips could be very useful, including for locals and tourists using the steam outbound and wanting to return later after an evening meal or a few drinks in Dartmouth. The DSR has a long operating season compared to many other lines, although I think it has been pared back a little since COVID. The company owns a small bus fleet that might be used during any engineering closures.

The line has modern track circuit block signalling throughout with colour light signals, electric points, and a handful of traincrew-operated ground frames for run rounds and depot access. They even erected one of the modern integrated lightweight LED signals recently, and all their older signal heads have LED lighting modules installed inside. This is all controlled centrally from a small panel signal box at Britannia Crossing, a busy level crossing site next to the Dart upper ferry left bank terminal, not the recent traditional signalbox style building at Kingswear which contains railway offices. Unlike some heritage railways, they don't need multiple signalboxes to be staffed to run, so the overheads of extended dates and hours of operation are relatively small. The extended national rail service could provide some additional track access income for the DSR.

To run mixed services, the infrastructure and the DSR fleet would no doubt require TPWS and AWS fitment. With this equipment, there might be some prospect for some of the fleet being certified for mainline operation on a similar basis as the NYMR, so occasional local excursions might be run beyond Paignton, along the sea wall for example.

 

[paul1609]

All of these could be worked around with appropriate special agreements and conditions of carriage. It's clearly very important to protect the revenue of the steam service so cheaper ordinary tickets wouldn't be valid on the steam trains during the day, though they might be made valid on the regular Stagecoach local buses instead. Steam finishes around 5pm and after around 7pm there isn't even any bus service to or from Kingswear or Dartmouth so a couple of evening DMU round trips could be very useful, including for locals and tourists using the steam outbound and wanting to return later after an evening meal or a few drinks in Dartmouth. The DSR has a long operating season compared to many other lines, although I think it has been pared back a little since COVID. The company owns a small bus fleet that might be used during any engineering closures.

The line has modern track circuit block signalling throughout with colour light signals, electric points, and a handful of traincrew-operated ground frames for run rounds and depot access. They even erected one of the modern integrated lightweight LED signals recently, and all their older signal heads have LED lighting modules installed inside. This is all controlled centrally from a small panel signal box at Britannia Crossing, a busy level crossing site next to the Dart upper ferry left bank terminal, not the recent traditional signalbox style building at Kingswear which contains railway offices. Unlike some heritage railways, they don't need multiple signalboxes to be staffed to run, so the overheads of extended dates and hours of operation are relatively small. The extended national rail service could provide some additional track access income for the DSR.

To run mixed services, the infrastructure and the DSR fleet would no doubt require TPWS and AWS fitment. With this equipment, there might be some prospect for some of the fleet being certified for mainline operation on a similar basis as the NYMR, so occasional local excursions might be run beyond Paignton, along the sea wall for example.

It would need a complete re-write of the current ROGS legislation to permit a hybrid railway. Currently there are heritage railways that are limited to 25 mph or mainline railways. Mainline operators can operate on heritage railways but only at the 25 mph for passenger trains. Heritage Railways can operate on the mainline but that is prohibitively expensive see the discussions in other threads about the Swanage Wareham trains. The NYMR have given up their previous rights to run in excess of 25 mph and for the Grosmont to Battersby section to reduce their risks and costs.

 

[Titfield]

All of these could be worked around with appropriate special agreements and conditions of carriage. It's clearly very important to protect the revenue of the steam service so cheaper ordinary tickets wouldn't be valid on the steam trains during the day, though they might be made valid on the regular Stagecoach local buses instead. Steam finishes around 5pm and after around 7pm there isn't even any bus service to or from Kingswear or Dartmouth so a couple of evening DMU round trips could be very useful, including for locals and tourists using the steam outbound and wanting to return later after an evening meal or a few drinks in Dartmouth. The DSR has a long operating season compared to many other lines, although I think it has been pared back a little since COVID. The company owns a small bus fleet that might be used during any engineering closures.

The line has modern track circuit block signalling throughout with colour light signals, electric points, and a handful of traincrew-operated ground frames for run rounds and depot access. They even erected one of the modern integrated lightweight LED signals recently, and all their older signal heads have LED lighting modules installed inside. This is all controlled centrally from a small panel signal box at Britannia Crossing, a busy level crossing site next to the Dart upper ferry left bank terminal, not the recent traditional signalbox style building at Kingswear which contains railway offices. Unlike some heritage railways, they don't need multiple signalboxes to be staffed to run, so the overheads of extended dates and hours of operation are relatively small. The extended national rail service could provide some additional track access income for the DSR.

To run mixed services, the infrastructure and the DSR fleet would no doubt require TPWS and AWS fitment. With this equipment, there might be some prospect for some of the fleet being certified for mainline operation on a similar basis as the NYMR, so occasional local excursions might be run beyond Paignton, along the sea wall for example.

Trying to explain to customers that there are different conditions of carriage etc etc for the two services would be a nightmare and undoubtedly create much angst and dissatisfaction.

 

[MarkyT]

It would need a complete re-write of the current ROGS legislation to permit a hybrid railway. Currently there are heritage railways that are limited to 25 mph or mainline railways. Mainline operators can operate on heritage railways but only at the 25 mph for passenger trains. Heritage Railways can operate on the mainline but that is prohibitively expensive see the discussions in other threads about the Swanage Wareham trains. The NYMR have given up their previous rights to run in excess of 25 mph and for the Grosmont to Battersby section to reduce their risks and costs.

25mph might be adequate for the DMU service over the distance involved but the DSR has (or certainly had) a derogation to allow mainline excursions to travel at 40mph on parts of their infrastructure in order to get a run at the steep bank to Churston from Goodrington (much of it 1:60), where they'd had a few embarrassing stalls with long trains in the past. I recall Duke of Gloucester just making it to Churston, slipping repeatedly, at walking pace hauling 13 bogies and a dead class 47 one Sunday about a decade ago. The train stalled a couple of times and had to restart, which was touch and go but the crew managed it. I'm certain the 47 was not assisting as there was nobody visible in the cab which I had a clear view of on the viaduct near Broadsands through my zoom lens.

Trying to explain to customers that there are different conditions of carriage etc etc for the two services would be a nightmare and undoubtedly create much angst and dissatisfaction.

The ticket could be endorsed not valid on DSR steam services, valid on Stagecoach routes X & Y between 10:00 and 17:00. Outside that restriction, delay repay etc could work as normal. I can't automatically jump on a LSL mainline steam excursion that turned up at Crewe today if my Avanti was cancelled. Is that any different significantly?

 

[Belperpete]

The ticket could be endorsed not valid on DSR steam services, valid on Stagecoach routes X & Y between 10:00 and 17:00. Outside that restriction, delay repay etc could work as normal. I can't automatically jump on a LSL mainline steam excursion that turned up at Crewe today if my Avanti was cancelled. Is that any different significantly?

So someone buys a Kinswear to Dundee ticket to travel on the GWR-operated service, the train is delayed at Churston, so misses its connections and also delays other services, so GWR are going to have to pay out shed loads of delay compensation. Usually GWR would get compensation from NR for the delay to their train, however this isn't NR, so presumably the DSR would have to stump up the same kind of compensation?

Getting back to the original proposal, I don't see NR wanting to maintain assets that aren't theirs, and if they did, they would want paying for it. So who would pay for it, the DSR or GWR?

Rather than all the complexities involved in operating GWR services over the DSR, it would be far simpler to just have the DSR run some extra DMU services of their own over their own line.

Wasn't there a proposal to run West Yorks metro services over the KWVR to/from Leeds? This seems to have died the death, presumably because of the same kind of issues as this proposal would have.

 

[SwindonManor]

Again very nice, keep these opinions coming I love to hear them!

 

[simonw]

tell that to the snowdon mountain railway

The one thing the snowdon mountain rail is not is a preserved railway. It has always been a commercial organisation. It also has very different prices for its steam trips compared with its diesel ones.

 

[nanstallon]

Possibly the Dart Valley Railway plc may not want to be nationalised, or to share running over its line with other train operators. At any rate, they will want to know what is in it for them.

 

[bramling]

The one thing the snowdon mountain rail is not is a preserved railway. It has always been a commercial organisation. It also has very different prices for its steam trips compared with its diesel ones.

Indeed there is essentially little if any comparison between SMR and pretty much all other railways. Pretty much their sole focus is to transport people up and down Snowdon. The fact that they offer the chance to do this with steam haulage in “heritage” carriages, and the fact that there’s the prospect of scenic views, is very much incidental.

Indeed the views are a matter for debate, as in poor weather there can be little if anything to see, especially higher up. And the heritage carriages ISTR are actually quite modern in themselves, albeit built to historic designs.

One could argue that Dartmouth takes people from A to B and includes scenic views (which it certainly does), but I get the feeling many people want to be able to say “we took the steam train to Dartmouth”. Indeed they don’t have a monopoly on sea views round there, many visitors to Torbay are likely to travel along Dawlish by train at some point or other, and there’s also the Exmouth and Gunnislake lines fairly nearby which are marketed as scenic.

That said, I feel they could get away with the odd diesel-hauled trip. I’d imagine there are people who would be happy just to do the journey as a means of getting to Dartmouth, especially as it potentially avoids quite a bit of hassle driving there (both in terms of parking, and the fact that to access Dartmouth from Torbay requires either using a ferry or a lengthy detour via Totnes).

 

[nanstallon]

Indeed there is essentially little if any comparison between SMR and pretty much all other railways. Pretty much their sole focus is to transport people up and down Snowdon. The fact that they offer the chance to do this with steam haulage in “heritage” carriages, and the fact that there’s the prospect of scenic views, is very much incidental.

Indeed the views are a matter for debate, as in poor weather there can be little if anything to see, especially higher up. And the heritage carriages ISTR are actually quite modern in themselves, albeit built to historic designs.

One could argue that Dartmouth takes people from A to B and includes scenic views (which it certainly does), but I get the feeling many people want to be able to say “we took the steam train to Dartmouth”. Indeed they don’t have a monopoly on sea views round there, many visitors to Torbay are likely to travel along Dawlish by train at some point or other, and there’s also the Exmouth and Gunnislake lines fairly nearby which are marketed as scenic.

That said, I feel they could get away with the odd diesel-hauled trip. I’d imagine there are people who would be happy just to do the journey as a means of getting to Dartmouth, especially as it potentially avoids quite a bit of hassle driving there (both in terms of parking, and the fact that to access Dartmouth from Torbay requires either using a ferry or a lengthy detour via Totnes).

I must say that I like heritage lines to do at least a bit of 'normal' service. Sometimes the Dartmouth Steam Railway does slip in some diesel working, like running a 37 on some of the trips as well as steam doing the rest of the timetable. They do advertise this, so that people expecting to ride behind steam are not disappointed. When I went over on such a day, there seemed to be just as much demand for the 37 hauled trains - not just the anorak, duffle bag and bottle of Tizer brigade!

 

[D7666]

There is a conflict in ideas here.

Dartmouth - the suggestion is it exists to get to get tourists and trippers to and from their boat trips and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

If that is the case, then what it the difference between Snowdon existing to get tourists and trippers to and from a mountain top and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

also that sort of customer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==

The one thing the snowdon mountain rail is not is a preserved railway. It has always been a commercial organisation.

Irrelevant to the tripper / tourist customer.

That customer market does not care one iota if something is commercial not.


Also, if you apply your Snowdon argument to Dartmouth i.e. steam fares more diesels less, then are you realistically suggesting not only should Dartmouth run regular diesels but at a lower price - at which point the trippers / tourists on a budget will transfer from their kettle rail + boat trip to diesel rail + boat trip

 

[simonw]

There is a conflict in ideas here.

Dartmouth - the suggestion is it exists to get to get tourists and trippers to and from their boat trips and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

If that is the case, then what it the difference between Snowdon existing to get tourists and trippers to and from a mountain top and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

also that sort of customer

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Irrelevant to the tripper / tourist customer.

That customer market does not care one iota if something is commercial not.


Also, if you apply your Snowdon argument to Dartmouth i.e. steam fares more diesels less, then are you realistically suggesting not only should Dartmouth run regular diesels but at a lower price - at which point the trippers / tourists on a budget will transfer from their kettle rail + boat trip to diesel rail + boat trip

A few straw men there. I was merely replying to an assertion that the snowdon railway falls into the category 'preserved railways'. It clearly doesnt.

I made no comment on what pricing model the dart valley does or should adopt.

 

[John Luxton]

Trying to explain to customers that there are different conditions of carriage etc etc for the two services would be a nightmare and undoubtedly create much angst and dissatisfaction.

It is a different form of transport but Mersey Ferries manage to have two completely different fare structures depending on whether the service being operated is before 10L00 or after 16:00.

Commuter fares are a lot less than the day time River Cruise which okay is a bit longer but basically is still just a trip on a boat.

Also do not different TOCs and Open Access Operators have differing terms an conditions? Such as one company's ticket is not valid on another's service. GWR DMU turns up you have to have a GWR ticket. Dart Valley train and you need a Dart Valley Ticket.

 

[bramling]

There is a conflict in ideas here.

Dartmouth - the suggestion is it exists to get to get tourists and trippers to and from their boat trips and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

If that is the case, then what it the difference between Snowdon existing to get tourists and trippers to and from a mountain top and things, with a scenic rail trip on the way.

also that sort of customer

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2024 ==


Irrelevant to the tripper / tourist customer.

That customer market does not care one iota if something is commercial not.


Also, if you apply your Snowdon argument to Dartmouth i.e. steam fares more diesels less, then are you realistically suggesting not only should Dartmouth run regular diesels but at a lower price - at which point the trippers / tourists on a budget will transfer from their kettle rail + boat trip to diesel rail + boat trip

I don’t see a conflict. In the case of Snowdon, it seems that people would pay quite large sums of money to reach the top of Snowdon regardless of what the offering is. Indeed if one looks at Trip Adviser or whatever you’ll find the reviews are rather mixed regarding the experience, in particular that the diesel-hauled trains are very cramped. But Snowdon is probably never going to have a shortage of clientele simply because there’s always going to be hoards of people who want to get to Snowdon summit and either can’t or won’t walk there.

But in the case of Dartmouth I suspect the railway needs to be a bit more competitive, especially if they need to charge relatively high prices to make the business model work. Okay Kingswear and Dartmouth both have accessibility issues by road in their own different ways, however driving there is perfectly viable. Likewise there are plenty of scenic seaside towns in the area where people can go for a day out.

Snowdon just doesn’t really have to compete, as the only competition is walking up there, which a substantial proportion of the population either won’t or can’t do. So it’s essentially unique, the only means of reaching the highest summit in England/Wales. Whereas Dartmouth isn’t unique as a day out offering.

 

[REVUpminster]

The DSR is fully signalled but the strange thing is Sands Road level crossing is operated at the crossing by someone GWR or DSR coming to the crossing from Paignton and manually pressing the buttons.

I think it was of the reasons GWR prefer to shunt a train back and forth over the Torbay Road crossing and only use the coach sidings for the 800s. A Cross Country train also shunts from platform 1 to 2 in the evening.

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The local MP at the time when MP's were asked about opening railways in their area suggested extending the mainline to Goodrington.

The problem with railways in this location is the No 12 bus running very frequently and the 120 hourly to Kingswear only taking 25 minutes; admittedly you have to walk down to the ferry from the banjo to get the ferries. While the £2 bus fare remains it is almost impossible for a railway to compete.