Fair evasion - repeat offence - at risk of prosecution

[Fabrizio]

Yesterday, I was caught fare evading by a rail enforcement officer. My answers, I fear, were not satisfactory and I feel I might be subject to prosecution.



I recently started working in london, I tried to avoid paying the full ticket into london by buying a ticket from luton>luton parkway to get through the barriers.



When I saw the officer coming, I bought a ticket for the next arriving train on this route. This was not sufficient as it was not bought before the journey began, but 5 mins after.



The ‘on record’ questionnaire:



Before the questionnaire began we had a conversation as follows:

“do I need to buy a ticket from you? because I have a valid ticket here that will work at the far end.”

“No, we will be in touch via mail”



The questionnaire began:

“do you have a valid ticket”

“Yes, we just discussed that I have a ticket for the far end of the journey”

“do you have the money to pay for a ticket”

“I have a ticket.. you just said I dont have to pay for one now.”

“did you intentionally avoid the fare”

“No”



I fear the preceding conversation confused me and made my first two answers false unintentionally. The third answer was a lie, already regret this.



Aggravating factors:

I received an on-the-spot penalty a few weeks ago for a similar offence by normal ticket inspector.

I lied to the on-record questions for reasons described above, mostly an accident through panic and lack of clear thought.

I told the officer that the short ticket was my brother’s, which I used.

If they audited my account in full, they would find that I have done this a few times since starting my new job, which I desperately do not want to lose (dream job).



Mitigating factors:

I did this because the service I get on is cancelled at the last minute for “staff shortages” very regularly indeed. My idea was to wait until I know what train I am getting before buying and buy when on the platform. The other possible service is to Brighton, which I assume would be a different ticket. The service I was caught on is to three bridges.

There was a last minute platform alteration, making it impossible to buy the three bridges ticket before getting on the train (i did try, but moving platforms took too long).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You say you bought a ticket from Luton/Airport Parkway to London "to get through the barriers". Where did you actually start your journey? How many times had you done this?

Whilst the more knowledgeable forum members, e.g.: @Hadders will give you the proper advice, you will need to wait for the letter from the train company (?GTR/EMR) which can take several weeks

 

[Wolfie]

Firstly, as far as l am aware services from Luton to both Brighton and Three Bridges are provided by the same operator, Thameslink. Unless an Advance Ticket - i.e. a non-flexible ticket for a specific train at a particular time - was being purchased (which generally has to be done well before the train's scheduled departure time) then the majority of your proposed mitigation is meaningless.

Secondly being caught committing the same criminal offence twice in a matter of weeks is going to make it much harder to obtain a settlement and avoid criminal prosecution.

Having said that the experts in this field, particularly @Hadders, will likely be along to offer comprehensive advice shortly. I imagine that they will require many more specifics to properly assist though.

 

[spyinthesky]

1. Your starting point appears to be Luton, where was your final destination?
2. How did you intend to exit the destination station, does it have barriers?
3. At what point of the journey was you challenged?
4. What time of day was it?

 

[Wolfie]

You say you bought a ticket from Luton/Airport Parkway to London "to get through the barriers". Where did you actually start your journey? How many times had you done this?

Whilst the more knowledgeable forum members, e.g.: @Hadders will give you the proper advice, you will need to wait for the letter from the train company (?GTR/EMR) which can take several weeks

I believe that a ticket from Luton to Luton Airport was bought "to get through the barriers". Classic doughnutting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

1. Your starting point appears to be Luton, where was your final destination?
2. How did you intend to exit the destination station, does it have barriers?
3. At what point of the journey was you challenged?
4. What time of day was it?

Good questions. I'd add:
What day was it?

 

[Fabrizio]

I believe that a ticket from Luton to Luton Airport was bought "to get through the barriers". Classic doughnutting.

Correct. Full journey was Luton to Farringdon. I bought a ticket from Luton to Farringdon once I spotted the officers, but was of course too late.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

1. Your starting point appears to be Luton, where was your final destination?
2. How did you intend to exit the destination station, does it have barriers?
3. At what point of the journey was you challenged?
4. What time of day was it?

Destination was Farringdon. I get tube from there, no barriers to get on the tube. I was challenged 5 mins after getting on at about 8am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Correct. Full journey was Luton to Farringdon. I bought a ticket from Luton to Farringdon once I spotted the officers, but was of course too late.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


Destination was Farringdon. I get tube from there, no barriers to get on the tube. I was challenged 5 mins after getting on at about 8am.

On a Tuesday, on the way to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

Firstly, as far as l am aware services from Luton to both Brighton and Three Bridges are provided by the same operator, Thameslink. Unless an Advance Ticket - i.e. a non-flexible ticket for a specific train at a particular time - was being purchased (which generally has to be done well before the train's scheduled departure time) then the majority of your proposed mitigation is meaningless.

Secondly being caught committing the same criminal offence twice in a matter of weeks is going to make it much harder to obtain a settlement and avoid criminal prosecution.

Having said that the experts in this field, particularly @Hadders, will likely be along to offer comprehensive advice shortly. I imagine that they will require many more specifics to properly assist though.

I see, I was not aware that a ticket would work on both lines to Brighton and Three Bridges.

I was caught by an inspector a few weeks back, but a different type of inspector who did not go down the prosecution route. I assume that doesn’t help anything.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So the train company (GTR) will already have you "on record" so to speak so "could" theoretically file for prosecution. You will have to wait for the letter to see what they have charged you with.

 

[Wolfie]

Correct. Full journey was Luton to Farringdon. I bought a ticket from Luton to Farringdon once I spotted the officers, but was of course too late.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


Destination was Farringdon. I get tube from there, no barriers to get on the tube. I was challenged 5 mins after getting on at about 8am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


On a Tuesday, on the way to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


I see, I was not aware that a ticket would work on both lines to Brighton and Three Bridges.

I was caught by an inspector a few weeks back, but a different type of inspector who did not go down the prosecution route. I assume that doesn’t help anything.

You do, l assume, realise that TfL keep a very close eye on cards where there are regular exits from the system but no corresponding entries?

 

[John R]

I see, I was not aware that a ticket would work on both lines to Brighton and Three Bridges.

The trains pass through Three Bridges on their way to Brighton, so it's difficult to see why you might think that. It sounds like you are making up excuses to justify short faring, which will get extremely short shrift with the investigator looking at your case if you put them in any letter.

GTR (Thameslink) is normally very amenable to offering out of court settlements, but having been caught be them once it is more doubtful that they will offer you one this time, especially as a perusal of your account will show other examples of tickets purchased for short faring purposes. All you can do now is wait and see what they say when they write to you.

 

[AlterEgo]

“Yes, we just discussed that I have a ticket for the far end of the journey”

What ticket was that?

Aggravating factors:

I received an on-the-spot penalty a few weeks ago for a similar offence by normal ticket inspector.

That's not great, to be honest, as it marks you out as a serial offender.

I lied to the on-record questions for reasons described above, mostly an accident through panic and lack of clear thought.

I told the officer that the short ticket was my brother’s, which I used.

Is that true, or not?

If they audited my account in full, they would find that I have done this a few times since starting my new job, which I desperately do not want to lose (dream job).

So you've done this a few times - how do you mean "this"? Have you been buying short tickets at the other end to get through barriers there too? Or is your destination somewhere without barriers?

Mitigating factors:

I did this because the service I get on is cancelled at the last minute for “staff shortages” very regularly indeed. My idea was to wait until I know what train I am getting before buying and buy when on the platform.

...and pay extra for that privilege? Why would you expect anyone to believe that? It's already been clearly demonstrated you buy the ticket to get through the barrier, and you hope not to be challenged for a ticket, and when you do, you hurriedly try to purchase one. We weren't born yesterday and neither are GTR's investigators. This is not a mitigating factor at all.

The other possible service is to Brighton, which I assume would be a different ticket. The service I was caught on is to three bridges.

Why would you assume this? They both are operated by the same company, going to the station you want.

There was a last minute platform alteration, making it impossible to buy the three bridges ticket before getting on the train (i did try, but moving platforms took too long).

Not relevant - you should have purchased this before boarding, and in fact before you went through the gate, for reasons we have already explored.

 

[spyinthesky]

With them looking at your purchasing history as a repeat offender, do you also do the return journey in the same manner?

 

[Fabrizio]

You do, l assume, realise that TfL keep a very close eye on cards where there are regular exits from the system but no corresponding entries?

I always pay for the tube in full, tapping in at farringdon and tapping out at final destination

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

What ticket was that?

- the ticket i bought from luton to farringdon when i saw the inspector coming.

That's not great, to be honest, as it marks you out as a serial offender.

- agreed.

Is that true, or not?

- no, not true.

So you've done this a few times - how do you mean "this"? Have you been buying short tickets at the other end to get through barriers there too? Or is your destination somewhere without barriers?

- destination is without barriers.

...and pay extra for that privilege? Why would you expect anyone to believe that? It's already been clearly demonstrated you buy the ticket to get through the barrier, and you hope not to be challenged for a ticket, and when you do, you hurriedly try to purchase one. We weren't born yesterday and neither are GTR's investigators. This is not a mitigating factor at all.

- correct, I mean that I am unsure on what train I will be getting on so wondered if that would help me make the case for not buying a ticket in advance.

Why would you assume this? They both are operated by the same company, going to the station you want.

- they leave from different platforms, one is far quicker than the other, id assume that means a different price and therefore one is not valid on the other.

Not relevant - you should have purchased this before boarding, and in fact before you went through the gate, for reasons we have already explored.

- agreed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

With them looking at your purchasing history as a repeat offender, do you also do the return journey in the same manner?

i usually buy an open return ticket, so yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

So the train company (GTR) will already have you "on record" so to speak so "could" theoretically file for prosecution. You will have to wait for the letter to see what they have charged you with.

Will the initial letter typically explain their stance / whether they intend to prosecute and on what grounds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

The trains pass through Three Bridges on their way to Brighton, so it's difficult to see why you might think that. It sounds like you are making up excuses to justify short faring, which will get extremely short shrift with the investigator looking at your case if you put them in any letter.

GTR (Thameslink) is normally very amenable to offering out of court settlements, but having been caught be them once it is more doubtful that they will offer you one this time, especially as a perusal of your account will show other examples of tickets purchased for short faring purposes. All you can do now is wait and see what they say when they write to you.

- good to know. I thought that because they leave from different platforms and one is far quicker, so i assumed differently priced tickets and hence one not valid on the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

I always pay for the tube in full, tapping in at farringdon and tapping out at final destination

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==

- forgot to add, i do this with oyster card, not the same as payment card used previously

- the ticket i bought from luton to farringdon when i saw the inspector coming.

- agreed.

- no, not true.

- destination is without barriers.

- correct, I mean that I am unsure on what train I will be getting on so wondered if that would help me make the case for not buying a ticket in advance.

- they leave from different platforms, one is far quicker than the other, id assume that means a different price and therefore one is not valid on the other.

- agreed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


i usually buy an open return ticket, so yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


Will the initial letter typically explain their stance / whether they intend to prosecute and on what grounds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


- good to know. I thought that because they leave from different platforms and one is far quicker, so i assumed differently priced tickets and hence one not valid on the other.

the

 

[Wolfie]

I always pay for the tube in full, tapping in at farringdon and tapping out at final destination

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


- the ticket i bought from luton to farringdon when i saw the inspector coming.

- agreed.

- no, not true.

- destination is without barriers.

- correct, I mean that I am unsure on what train I will be getting on so wondered if that would help me make the case for not buying a ticket in advance.

- they leave from different platforms, one is far quicker than the other, id assume that means a different price and therefore one is not valid on the other.

- agreed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


i usually buy an open return ticket, so yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


Will the initial letter typically explain their stance / whether they intend to prosecute and on what grounds?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


- good to know. I thought that because they leave from different platforms and one is far quicker, so i assumed differently priced tickets and hence one not valid on the other.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2024 ==


- forgot to add, i do this with oyster card, not the same as payment card used previously

the

So you pretty much have not been paying for the mainline rail part of the journey at all (£16.50 vs £57.10 for Anytime Day Return). It would perhaps be surprising if you aren't prosecuted but should that not happen you can expect any settlement to be hefty (Anytime Single for every journey, no account taken of any money paid, plus £150ish admin costs.)

 

[Fabrizio]

So you pretty much have not been paying for the mainline rail part of the journey at all. It would perhaps be surprising if you aren't prosecuted but should that not happen you can expect any settlement to be hefty.

Any suggestions on what to reply to the mail? I would be willing to pay a hefty settlement to avoid a criminal record. I’ve only started working in my dream job a few months ago, and would be gutted to lose it over this.

 

[Wolfie]

Any suggestions on what to reply to the mail? I would be willing to pay a hefty settlement to avoid a criminal record. I’ve only started working in my dream job a few months ago, and would be gutted to lose it over this.

@Hadders has offered useful advice and will doubtless comment later. The key is to be suitably and genuinely apologetic. You need to remember though that the choice of how to proceed isn't yours. You had your warning when you got a Penalty Fare and carried on doing the same thing.

It will likely take some time (they have up to six months to bring a prosecution) before you get a letter. Getting caught a third time would completely undermine any claim to be apologetic and would likely guarantee prosecution. Make sure that you buy the correct tickets going forward.

 

[Fabrizio]

@Hadders has offered useful advice and will doubtless comment later. The key is to be suitably and genuinely apologetic. You need to remember though that the choice of how to proceed isn't yours. You had your warning when you got a Penalty Fare and carried on doing the same thing.

It will likely take some time (they have up to six months to bring a prosecution) before you get a letter. Getting caught a third time would completely undermine any claim to be apologetic and would likely guarantee prosecution. Make sure that you buy the correct tickets going forward.

Thoroughly appreciate your advice, truly. I assumed the fine might be bigger next time, but criminal proceedings completely slipped my mind. Ridiculous, I know, and completely my own doing. I just pray I can keep my job. Thanks again.

 

[Haywain]

they leave from different platforms, one is far quicker than the other, id assume that means a different price and therefore one is not valid on the other.

That doesn't stack up. Almost all southbound Thameslink services to Brighton or Three Bridges leave from platform 1, apart from a handful in the morning peak.

So you pretty much have not been paying for the mainline rail part of the journey at all (£16.50 vs £57.10 for Anytime Day Return).

£6.20 v £36.30.

 

[Wolfie]

That doesn't stack up. Almost all southbound Thameslink services to Brighton or Three Bridges leave from platform 1, apart from a handful in the morning peak.

£6.20 v £36.30.

Interesting - l did look at BRFares and found the fares that l quoted.

 

[Haywain]

I'm just going to add that having a ticket from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway should arouse suspicion in itself. The two stations are only a mile apart and are connected by bus services that are far more frequent than the trains. Even price doesn't give a good reason for using the train.

 

[Kite159]

OP, I would imagine the train operator will be auditing your online account to flag up any tickets purchased between Luton & Luton Airport Parkway, especially e-tickets if they lack evidence of scans at Luton Airport to work out the cost. The penalty fare might make it a bit harder to get an out-of-court settlement (as it shows you had a warning and ignored it), but all you can do is wait for Thameslink to get in touch to see what the letter says at which route they go down.

You won't be the first passenger they have caught short ticketing to bypass barriers and using the platform side oyster readers at Farringdon to touch in to carry on using TfL services [and touching out on arrival before jumping on a Thameslink service]. I've seen RPIs monitoring those readers in the past to 'pounce' on passengers they see using them to challenge them. (Similar to West Ham on C2C and Stratford on Greater Anglia)

 

[Wolfie]

I'm just going to add that having a ticket from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway should arouse suspicion in itself. The two stations are only a mile apart and are connected by bus services that are far more frequent than the trains. Even price doesn't give a good reason for using the train.

Absolutely

 

[Fabrizio]

OP, I would imagine the train operator will be auditing your online account to flag up any tickets purchased between Luton & Luton Airport Parkway, especially e-tickets if they lack evidence of scans at Luton Airport to work out the cost. The penalty fare might make it a bit harder to get an out-of-court settlement (as it shows you had a warning and ignored it), but all you can do is wait for Thameslink to get in touch to see what the letter says at which route they go down.

You won't be the first passenger they have caught short ticketing to bypass barriers and using the platform side oyster readers at Farringdon to touch in to carry on using TfL services [and touching out on arrival before jumping on a Thameslink service]. I've seen RPIs monitoring those readers in the past to 'pounce' on passengers they see using them to challenge them. (Similar to West Ham on C2C and Stratford on Greater Anglia)

Really appreciate this.

 

[Wolfie]

OP, I would imagine the train operator will be auditing your online account to flag up any tickets purchased between Luton & Luton Airport Parkway, especially e-tickets if they lack evidence of scans at Luton Airport to work out the cost. The penalty fare might make it a bit harder to get an out-of-court settlement (as it shows you had a warning and ignored it), but all you can do is wait for Thameslink to get in touch to see what the letter says at which route they go down.

You won't be the first passenger they have caught short ticketing to bypass barriers and using the platform side oyster readers at Farringdon to touch in to carry on using TfL services [and touching out on arrival before jumping on a Thameslink service]. I've seen RPIs monitoring those readers in the past to 'pounce' on passengers they see using them to challenge them. (Similar to West Ham on C2C and Stratford on Greater Anglia)

C2C at Upminster and Barking too... Some folk tried being a little "cuter".....

 

[Fabrizio]

I'm just going to add that having a ticket from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway should arouse suspicion in itself. The two stations are only a mile apart and are connected by bus services that are far more frequent than the trains. Even price doesn't give a good reason for using the train.

Really appreciate this. Very much appreciate how naive my actions were. Needed someone to put it in perspective. Just praying I can settle this out of court. Thanks again.