Travel Incident Report Issued by the Wrong Train Company

[Wade]

My East Midlands Railway train was delayed from Manchester to Liverpool station. This meant I could no longer meet up with my appointment at Liverpool but I had gotten on the train before this came to my realisation. I decided to disembark immediately at the earliest stop and got on the next EMR train back to Manchester. I forgot that my return ticket was not valid for this time/train (The return ticket was for northern train). I didn't realise this until I got to the barriers and the staff pointed it out to me. The staff at the barriers issued me with a travel incident report but the notice he gave to me states that northern train will contact me about this incident rather than EMR train.
So is it normal to have been issued an incident report by northern train even though the train I wrongly boarded was an EMR train so the notice should come from EMR?

Should I contact Northern train about this now before I receive their letter as I will be away on holiday for the rest of the month so I might not be back in time to meet the 21 day appeal deadline? Thanks.

 

[methecooldude]

My East Midlands Railway train was delayed from Manchester to Liverpool station. This meant I could no longer meet up with my appointment at Liverpool but I had gotten on the train before this came to my realisation. I decided to disembark immediately at the earliest stop and got on the next EMR train back to Manchester. I forgot that my return ticket was not valid for this time/train (The return ticket was for northern train). I didn't realise this until I got to the barriers and the staff pointed it out to me. The staff at the barriers issued me with a travel incident report but the notice he gave to me states that northern train will contact me about this incident rather than EMR train.
So is it normal to have been issued an incident report by northern train even though the train I wrongly boarded was an EMR train so the notice should come from EMR?

Should I contact Northern train about this now before I receive their letter as I will be away on holiday for the rest of the month so I might not be back in time to meet the 21 day appeal deadline? Thanks.

All the TOCs work together when dealing with things like this. You said that the staff at the barriers issues the TIR, this would be why, they were Northern staff.

 

[WesternLancer]

Should I contact Northern train about this now before I receive their letter as I will be away on holiday for the rest of the month so I might not be back in time to meet the 21 day appeal deadline? Thanks.

What 21 day Appeal deadline?

That is something IIRC relates to being issued with a Penalty Fare but you say you were given a travel incident report TIR - the consequences of that are very different from a Penalty Fare

It would help if you could upload a copy of whatever you were given so people can help explain what might happen next and how you can best deal with it

Remove any personal details / ref numbers form anything you upload.

 

[gray1404]

We need the details of the exact tickets you were using and also the exact trains you travelled on.

Once we have this information it will.be possible to advise further. If you're EMR train was delayed and you decided to return to your point of origin then you may have been entitled to do so but we will need more information.

 

[furlong]

What was the length of the delay? The current wording of the Conditions of Travel has some ambiguity but nevertheless you should have shown your outward ticket at the barrier and explained you had abandoned your journey due to the delay and had returned to your point of origin. If Northern writes to you, you'll need to provide evidence of that - your outward ticket, the time of the trains you took, the amount of delay at the point you made your decision, evidence of the appointment etc. As long as what you did looks rational they ought to accept the explanation. You should be entitled to a full refund of both outward and return tickets (without any admin fee) via your retailer.

 

[WesternLancer]

@Wade - if this is a question of you being able to get a refund for an abandoned journey of which there is a good chance - then if you post up the details people are asking you to share then experts here will be able to tell you how to make your case to get the refund if that is entitled to - ie what sort of language to use in your request, what clauses of the ticket t&c's to quote etc and how to phrase the request (as well as reject the idea that you should actually be getting penalised), then you will get that help here

 

[Hadders]

We really need to see the paperwork you were given to be able to offer you the best advice. Can you upload it but do cover up any personal details and case reference numbers before doing so.

 

[reb0118]

My advice is not to respond until you have received advice from this forum.

Depending on how you word that response the results could be very different ranging from a report for prosecution at one end to a full refund without administration fees at the other.

After we see the, suitably redacted, paperwork we can advise fully.

 

[gray1404]

And crucially the tickets you were traveling on and details of the trains you travelled on. I say this as you might have been entitled to return back to your origin station due to the delay.

 

[Wade]

All the TOCs work together when dealing with things like this. You said that the staff at the barriers issues the TIR, this would be why, they were Northern staff.

Okay, thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

What 21 day Appeal deadline?

That is something IIRC relates to being issued with a Penalty Fare but you say you were given a travel incident report TIR - the consequences of that are very different from a Penalty Fare

It would help if you could upload a copy of whatever you were given so people can help explain what might happen next and how you can best deal with it

Remove any personal details / ref numbers form anything you upload.

Yes I was given TIR by the staff but I was told to expect a letter from northern staff. Please see attached a copy of the TIR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

We need the details of the exact tickets you were using and also the exact trains you travelled on.

Once we have this information it will.be possible to advise further. If you're EMR train was delayed and you decided to return to your point of origin then you may have been entitled to do so but we will need more information.

Please see attached copies of the tickets. Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

What was the length of the delay? The current wording of the Conditions of Travel has some ambiguity but nevertheless you should have shown your outward ticket at the barrier and explained you had abandoned your journey due to the delay and had returned to your point of origin. If Northern writes to you, you'll need to provide evidence of that - your outward ticket, the time of the trains you took, the amount of delay at the point you made your decision, evidence of the appointment etc. As long as what you did looks rational they ought to accept the explanation. You should be entitled to a full refund of both outward and return tickets (without any admin fee) via your retailer.

The delay was 15mins. I was meant to arrive at Liverpool by 9.29am, which would have given me enough time to get to my next destination for my 10am appointment. As I realised I wouldn’t get to the meeting in time then I decided to end my journey and return back to Manchester. I got off at Warrington and boarded another EMR train back to Manchester. The staff at the barrier said I should have paid for another ticket at Warrington hence a TIR was issued.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

And crucially the tickets you were traveling on and details of the trains you travelled on. I say this as you might have been entitled to return back to your origin station due to the delay.

Thanks. I have attached copies of the tickets.

 

[furlong]

The delay was 15mins. I was meant to arrive at Liverpool by 9.29am, which would have given me enough time to get to my next destination for my 10am appointment. As I realised I wouldn’t get to the meeting in time then I decided to end my journey and return back to Manchester. I got off at Warrington and boarded another EMR train back to Manchester. The staff at the barrier said I should have paid for another ticket at Warrington hence a TIR was issued.

What was the nature of the meeting? You were due to be in Liverpool for nearly 6 hours. How did a mere 15 minute delay make the entire journey pointless?

 

[Wade]

I was meant to have a meeting to discuss the project I am working on by 10am until 10.30am, which was my main reason for going to Liverpool. I planned to work a bit after the meeting then go back by 3. As I couldn’t meet up with the meeting then there was no need for me to go to Liverpool for work only when I could do the same work at home in Manchester.

What was the nature of the meeting? You were due to be in Liverpool for nearly 6 hours. How did a mere 15 minute delay make the entire journey pointless?

 

[furlong]

So it was 16 minutes down at Warrington on a 52 minute journey - a significant percentage.

Don't contact them proactively, but if you hear from them, then you'll need to provide the explanation you've just given about the meeting, supplying copies of both tickets, and explain you therefore invoked your right under the National Rail Conditions of Travel to abandon your journey due to the delay and returned to your origin. They would remain free to dispute the validity of that or how to reconcile it against whatever was said at the barrier. If they do so, then the discussion could become much more technical in terms of law.

You should also be able to obtain refunds of both tickets from the original retailer without deductions on the same basis.

 

[Wade]

So it was 16 minutes down at Warrington on a 52 minute journey - a significant percentage.

Don't contact them proactively, but if you hear from them, then you'll need to provide the explanation you've just given about the meeting, supplying copies of both tickets, and explain you therefore invoked your right under the National Rail Conditions of Travel to abandon your journey due to the delay and returned to your origin. They would remain free to dispute the validity of that or how to reconcile it against whatever was said at the barrier. If they do so, then the discussion could become much more technical in terms of law.

You should also be able to obtain refunds of both tickets from the original retailer without deductions on the same basis.

Thanks. I will wait for their letter before engaging with them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2024 ==

I have received a letter from Northern Rail (please see attached). I have also written my response to them, please is the response okay?

I am writing to explain my recent journey on 4th July 2024 on East Midland Rail. My journey was abandoned due to a significant delay, and I returned to my station of origin as permitted under the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

On the day in question, I was scheduled to travel from Manchester to Liverpool lime street. Unfortunately, the EMR train I was to board was delayed by 15 minutes (please see attached my tickets). This delay meant that I would not be able to arrive at my destination on time, and I would miss an important meeting (please see attached meeting details). I was initially meant to arrive at Liverpool by 9.29am, which would have given me sufficient time to get to my next destination for my 10am appointment. The meeting was my main reason for going to Liverpool. I planned to work a bit after the meeting then go back by 3. As I could not meet up with the meeting then there was no need for me to go to Liverpool for work only when I could do the same work at home in Manchester.

Consequently, I decided it was no longer feasible to proceed with my journey so I alighted at the next station, which was Warrington Central. I then boarded another EMR train from Warrington Central back to my station of origin.

According to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, passengers have the right to abandon their journey and return to their station of origin if a delay causes significant inconvenience. In line with this policy, I returned to Manchester and therefore did not need to continue with my journey or present a valid ticket for the intended destination.

I trust this explanation clarifies the circumstances of my travel on 4th July 2024. Should you require any further information or documentation, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your understanding and assistance in this matter.

 

[furlong]

cut " and therefore did not need to continue with my journey or present a valid ticket for the intended destination" which makes no sense

 

[Wade]

cut " and therefore did not need to continue with my journey or present a valid ticket for the intended destination" which makes no sense

Thank you, I will do that.