• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail cancelling services July 2024

Status
Not open for further replies.

theageofthetra

Established Member
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,565
Location
Beckenham
I find that very difficult to believe, unless your hourly wage is at or close to the minimum wage.

The most tax you can be paying is:
  • 42% Income Tax (Scottish higher rate on earnings over £43,663 per year), plus
  • 2% Employee NI (on earnings over £4,189 per month)
You may pay more in a particular month if you do a lot of overtime, but this will be automatically corrected over the remainder of the tax year.
No driver should be paying higher rate tax, they should be paying the maximum they can into BRASS or AVC's (additional pension contributions). On a month you do a lot of overtime you adjust your contributions to avoid it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

snookertam

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2018
Messages
927
ScotRail are now bound by public sector pay rules, hence the lowball offers.

Like much of the rest of the industry, ScotRail are well aware that reliance on overtime increases the risk of these periods where the service is decimated, due to lack of uptake of overtime. It’s their preference to do it this way because for the majority of the time, it saves employing more drivers whilst still successfully covering the service. This is the cheaper option for them and they’ll continue to do it until they’re willing to employ more drivers.

Employing more drivers probably means an even more loss making railway which results in greater subsidy. Until we have a government that is willing to accept this outcome, we will have reliance on overtime which will mean cancellations when goodwill among staff runs out.

I understand the sentiment behind people saying ‘employ more drivers’, and if it wasn’t for the likely numbers involved, it’s the obvious solution, but to do so in order to maintain the service we currently have would likely cost an extra million a year minimum.

Ironically ScotRail are on a massive driver recruitment drive just now, which may or may not impact the problems being seen here. But I believe the current recruitment is just so the company can stand still in terms of driver numbers.

ScotRail is arguably the greatest loss making operator in Britain and likely always will be due to the sparse population of much of the country, combined with the generous service provision across many parts of the central belt. (It’s also dealing with legacy of the disastrous decision to take on the HSTs). There is no easy solution here for anyone. It’s ironic that people on this thread are complaining about tax rates in Scotland whilst also demanding a group of public sector workers get better pay, which will ultimately increase pressure on the public purse. If we want high quality reliable public services, those who can afford it need to pay for them. Yet nobody wants to when it comes to the crunch. That’s what government are up against when seeking a solution here.
 
Last edited:

Scotrail84

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,977
ScotRail are now bound by public sector pay rules, hence the lowball offers.

Like much of the rest of the industry, ScotRail are well aware that reliance on overtime increases the risk of these periods where the service is decimated, due to lack of uptake of overtime. It’s their preference to do it this way because for the majority of the time, it saves employing more drivers whilst still successfully covering the service. This is the cheaper option for them and they’ll continue to do it until they’re willing to employ more drivers.

Employing more drivers probably means an even more loss making railway which results in greater subsidy. Until we have a government that is willing to accept this outcome, we will have reliance on overtime which will mean cancellations when goodwill among staff runs out.

I understand the sentiment behind people saying ‘employ more drivers’, and if it wasn’t for the likely numbers involved, it’s the obvious solution, but to do so in order to maintain the service we currently have would likely cost an extra million a year minimum.

Ironically ScotRail are on a massive driver recruitment drive just now, which may or may not impact the problems being seen here. But I believe the current recruitment is just so the company can stand still in terms of driver numbers.

ScotRail is arguably the greatest loss making operator in Britain and likely always will be due to the sparse population of much of the country, combined with the generous service provision across many parts of the central belt. (It’s also dealing with legacy of the disastrous decision to take on the HSTs). There is no easy solution here for anyone. It’s ironic that people on this thread are complaining about tax rates in Scotland whilst also demanding a group of public sector workers get better pay, which will ultimately increase pressure on the public purse. If we want high quality reliable public services, those who can afford it need to pay for them. Yet nobody wants to when it comes to the crunch. That’s what government are up against when seeking a solution here.
Employing drivers is fine but you won't seen the benefit of a mass recruitment drive for 14-16 months after initial appointment given the length of the training involved, and not every driver taken on manages to pass out as well. A small number don't always make the grade and have to be redeployed elsewhere. All it does it keeps ScotRails head above water because by the time these new drivers are passed out they will have lost other senior drivers to retirement or other positions within the company. It's a vicious circle in reality.

ScotRail needed something to replace the 170s lost to Northern as well as the ex SWT and Alphaline 158s so they took the HSTs on for Intercity services. It was badly handled from the start, from the mistakes made with the fuel calculations to the refusal of planning permission to build a purpose built depot at Perth and of course choosing not to keep the TGS coaches with plenty of bike and luggage space was an error too, a massive mistake to take them on but in hindsight it was done for the right reason at the time. They needed rolling stock quick sharp and they were available. The HSTs reliability has been poor, theres sets scattered all over the place at Haymarket. I believe sourcing parts is a big issue given some of the components needed must be technology from 50 years ago. Now that they are getting made up to 5 car sets it means more seats available on long distance services which is always good, especially the Inverness line during the summer.

Not sure what else ScotRail could get. The MK4s with a loco and DVT would have been ideal for IC7 services and who knows, perhaps they will become free in the future.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
10 hours notice is not short notice with the railway, I'd say that was pretty good considering. Thats much better than turning up to the station for it to be caped at the last minute.
The problem is that's not how any rational customer would ever see it. Unfortunately it's a case of 'railway brain' - thinking you've done the customer a favour when in reality all you've done is annoy them.

When an airline cancels a flight at or after departure time they're rightly lambasted. If they cancel it at twelve hours notice and don't have an alternative in place, as in thise case, they're strongly criticised. Two weeks notice and the customer will be a little bit more understanding of the attempt to mitigate the problem. Anything later than that and you're in trouble as a business if you do it routinely.

Only the long-term stability of workforce will do. Nothing less is worth having. If that's unaffordable time to look at why that is exactly - why isn't productivity higher, why aren't more people using the services that already run? And go from there. Probablem is people won't like the answer so we're left fighting over crumbs. To be fair ScotRail are far, far closer to achieving a solid long-term productive workforce than most DfT operators are, because they've had many years of experience getting training improved and doing the right recruitment in the right places. They are behind Transport for Wales though when it comes to long term productivity and pay.
 

185

On Moderation
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,709
Well, this is one of just two operators where they can't try blaming their short staffing on staff pulling sickies to watch England. I mean, they could be watching Andy Murray... oh.. no - he's out...
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
ScotRail are now bound by public sector pay rules, hence the lowball offers.

Like much of the rest of the industry, ScotRail are well aware that reliance on overtime increases the risk of these periods where the service is decimated, due to lack of uptake of overtime. It’s their preference to do it this way because for the majority of the time, it saves employing more drivers whilst still successfully covering the service. This is the cheaper option for them and they’ll continue to do it until they’re willing to employ more drivers.

Employing more drivers probably means an even more loss making railway which results in greater subsidy. Until we have a government that is willing to accept this outcome, we will have reliance on overtime which will mean cancellations when goodwill among staff runs out.

I understand the sentiment behind people saying ‘employ more drivers’, and if it wasn’t for the likely numbers involved, it’s the obvious solution, but to do so in order to maintain the service we currently have would likely cost an extra million a year minimum.

Ironically ScotRail are on a massive driver recruitment drive just now, which may or may not impact the problems being seen here. But I believe the current recruitment is just so the company can stand still in terms of driver numbers.

ScotRail is arguably the greatest loss making operator in Britain and likely always will be due to the sparse population of much of the country, combined with the generous service provision across many parts of the central belt. (It’s also dealing with legacy of the disastrous decision to take on the HSTs). There is no easy solution here for anyone. It’s ironic that people on this thread are complaining about tax rates in Scotland whilst also demanding a group of public sector workers get better pay, which will ultimately increase pressure on the public purse. If we want high quality reliable public services, those who can afford it need to pay for them. Yet nobody wants to when it comes to the crunch. That’s what government are up against when seeking a solution here.
Look at the other side of the coin where driver headcount have been agreed at Transport for Wales. The costs of recruitment, training and maintaining higher numbers, while a laudable aim and a highly professional approach to delivering for the general public in the area, has meant they're facing massive funding problems and slashing their service uplift as a result.
 

Scotrail84

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,977
Well, this is one of just two operators where they can't try blaming their short staffing on staff pulling sickies to watch England. I mean, they could be watching Andy Murray... oh.. no - he's out...
Any staff member that pulls a sickie to watch Southgate's negative bore draw tactics wants sent for a med screen immediately.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The problem is that's not how any rational customer would ever see it. Unfortunately it's a case of 'railway brain' - thinking you've done the customer a favour when in reality all you've done is annoy them.

When an airline cancels a flight at or after departure time they're rightly lambasted. If they cancel it at twelve hours notice and don't have an alternative in place, as in thise case, they're strongly criticised. Two weeks notice and the customer will be a little bit more understanding of the attempt to mitigate the problem. Anything later than that and you're in trouble as a business if you do it routinely.

Only the long-term stability of workforce will do. Nothing less is worth having. If that's unaffordable time to look at why that is exactly - why isn't productivity higher, why aren't more people using the services that already run? And go from there. Probablem is people won't like the answer so we're left fighting over crumbs. To be fair ScotRail are far, far closer to achieving a solid long-term productive workforce than most DfT operators are, because they've had many years of experience getting training improved and doing the right recruitment in the right places. They are behind Transport for Wales though when it comes to long term productivity and pay.
I personally would rather know 10 hours in advance as opposed to 10 minutes. 10 hours gives plenty time to at least try and make some alternative arrangements. Turning up on the day and finding out your service is caped pretty much leaves you up the proverbial without a paddle. I think ScotRail have done the right thing by giving as much notice as possible.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,586
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
If the SG has any sense (I know, I know) then they’d get back round the negotiating table asap and produce a meaningful offer otherwise it’s going to be carnage for the summer!

The issue is surely that the SG does not have enough money, not a lack of sense.

What actually is the 'derisory' offer made to Drivers?
 

Scotrail84

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jul 2010
Messages
2,977
The issue is surely that the SG does not have enough money, not a lack of sense.

What actually is the 'derisory' offer made to Drivers?
I have heard (3rd hand info from a mate of a mate as I'm not in the loop), 3 year deal. 2% from 1st Apr then 1% each Jan until 3 years expires. Thats not just for drivers though.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
I personally would rather know 10 hours in advance as opposed to 10 minutes. 10 hours gives plenty time to at least try and make some alternative arrangements. Turning up on the day and finding out your service is caped pretty much leaves you up the proverbial without a paddle. I think ScotRail have done the right thing by giving as much notice as possible.
I'm not saying it isn't (slightly) better. I'm just saying that you're wrong to make the claim that it's "pretty good considering" and "not short notice" - that's not how any reasonable consumer with their own interests at heart would see it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The issue is surely that the SG does not have enough money, not a lack of sense.

What actually is the 'derisory' offer made to Drivers?
Sounds like the subject of any negotiations or offers so far are hearsay and conjecture to me. Perhaps the discussion would be more fruitful if some concrete numbers were forthcoming.
 

Devon Sunset

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
167
Location
East Lothian
I have heard (3rd hand info from a mate of a mate as I'm not in the loop), 3 year deal. 2% from 1st Apr then 1% each Jan until 3 years expires. Thats not just for drivers though.
Those numbers are correct. I believe it started as a 1 year deal and has morphed into a 3 year deal.
 

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
The issue is surely that the SG does not have enough money, not a lack of sense.

What actually is the 'derisory' offer made to Drivers?

Scottish Public Sector pay policy for years 24/25, 25/26 and 26/27 is as follows:
2024/25 - 2% April, 1% Jan 25
2025/26 - 2% April, 1% Jan 26
2026/27 - 2% April, 1% Jan 27

This low ball offer has already been rejected by the teaching unions, RMT and Aslef.

Again, it is worth noting that ScotRail is a private company - ScotRail Trains Ltd - and the sole shareholder is the Scottish government through their arms length holding company, Scottish Rail Holdings Ltd, as is the other "national" transport company, CalMac, but strangely the public sector pay policy is not applied to CalMac!

A summer of discontent is looming across vast swathes of the public sector in Scotland - not just on the railway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Those numbers are correct. I believe it started as a 1 year deal and has morphed into a 3 year deal.

It was always going to be 3 years as per the public sector pay policy, but tabled initially as 1 year to see if it would be palatable, then 2yrs and finally 3yrs. Whatever made ScotRail think it would be is beyond me!
 

Devon Sunset

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
167
Location
East Lothian
Scottish Public Sector pay policy for years 24/25, 25/26 and 26/27 is as follows:
2024/25 - 2% April, 1% Jan 25
2025/26 - 2% April, 1% Jan 26
2026/27 - 2% April, 1% Jan 27

This low ball offer has already been rejected by the teaching unions, RMT and Aslef.

Again, it is worth noting that ScotRail is a private company - ScotRail Trains Ltd - and the sole shareholder is the Scottish government through their arms length holding company, Scottish Rail Holdings Ltd, as is the other "national" transport company, CalMac, but strangely the public sector pay policy is not applied to CalMac!

A summer of discontent is looming across vast swathes of the public sector in Scotland - not just on the railway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



It was always going to be 3 years as per the public sector pay policy, but tabled initially as 1 year to see if it would be palatable, then 2yrs and finally 3yrs. Whatever made ScotRail think it would be is beyond me!
Agreed, but much of their thinking these days is beyond me.
 

John Bishop

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2018
Messages
653
Location
Perth
Scottish Public Sector pay policy for years 24/25, 25/26 and 26/27 is as follows:
2024/25 - 2% April, 1% Jan 25
2025/26 - 2% April, 1% Jan 26
2026/27 - 2% April, 1% Jan 27

This low ball offer has already been rejected by the teaching unions, RMT and Aslef.

Again, it is worth noting that ScotRail is a private company - ScotRail Trains Ltd - and the sole shareholder is the Scottish government through their arms length holding company, Scottish Rail Holdings Ltd, as is the other "national" transport company, CalMac, but strangely the public sector pay policy is not applied to CalMac!

A summer of discontent is looming across vast swathes of the public sector in Scotland - not just on the railway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



It was always going to be 3 years as per the public sector pay policy, but tabled initially as 1 year to see if it would be palatable, then 2yrs and finally 3yrs. Whatever made ScotRail think it would be is beyond me!
Nor was it applied last year at the pay negotiations. They initially came out with the public sector pay policy excuse but after that was swiftly rejected, several offers were forthcoming which were much greater than the pay policy. For me, they set the precedent last year, nothing has changed since then so why this year are they claiming this inability to offer a better offer. Talk about moving the goalposts!
 

chuff chuff

Member
Joined
25 Sep 2018
Messages
670
Think what annoys a lot of employees as well is the dragging out of negotiations year on year,always ends up months away from the pay anniversary.IIRC roughly four weeks between meetings to come back with the same (rejected ) offer but a year added on.
 

EMU303

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2016
Messages
296
Nor was it applied last year at the pay negotiations. They initially came out with the public sector pay policy excuse but after that was swiftly rejected, several offers were forthcoming which were much greater than the pay policy. For me, they set the precedent last year, nothing has changed since then so why this year are they claiming this inability to offer a better offer. Talk about moving the goalposts!
This year looks to be tougher in terms of government finance both for SG and UK governments. The new UK chancellor has today stated they have inherited “the worst set of financial circumstances since ww2”.. Even allowing for some political rhetoric by not wanting to set “good” expectations, it’s clear both governments don’t have much in the kitty. Although I’m sure there will be the usual squeezing out of something better than the offer quoted above, above but not much. So disruption may well continue for many weeks unfortunately. SR may well accept that as “ok” during the school holidays already underway.
But generally something has to give, either public spending gets cut (as was the previous UK government plan, partly by not increasing public sector spending to match inflation) or taxes rise (eg keeping tax thresholds frozen).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Agree we’re are over taxed in Scotland there is no incentive to work more hours if it takes you over the threshold this needs to be realigned with the rest of the UK. This rubbish about Scotland being less taxed than everywhere else is rubbish. And all TOCs need to employ more staff this is a toxic culture they should be No need to make people work their rest days due to not employing enough staff. This has been going on for years their is no excuse scotrail is not a private TOC.
People can vote for and elect a new SG in 2026 standing on a ticket of lowering the higher tax and harmonising with the UK. But that means reduced spending which would likely mean no more free prescriptions, free tuition fees (9k a year uk equivalent), child poverty payment, lower council tax, no more no peak fares etc. Something would have to give. Any party that claimed otherwise would be disingenuous.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
Agree we’re are over taxed in Scotland there is no incentive to work more hours if it takes you over the threshold this needs to be realigned with the rest of the UK. This rubbish about Scotland being less taxed than everywhere else is rubbish. And all TOCs need to employ more staff this is a toxic culture they should be No need to make people work their rest days due to not employing enough staff. This has been going on for years their is no excuse scotrail is not a private TOC.
Surely you'd expect to be paying more in tax than currently? If you want public sector workers in Scotland (not just ScotRail) to get "decent" pay deals. Certainly in England there's a strong feeling Labour should be raising much more through tax from some parts of the party.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
A new temporary timetable has been published, reductions on most routes:


We're introducing a temporary timetable to provide greater certainty and reliability for customers.

This is a result of the ongoing impact of fewer train drivers than normal currently available for overtime or rest day working, as is their contractual right, following confirmation from drivers’ trade union ASLEF that it will recommend to its Executive Committee a ballot for industrial action over pay.

While we're recruiting 160 new drivers each year to improve resilience, some rest day working and overtime is still needed to deliver a normal timetable. This has historically been the case in the railway and is replicated in other train operators across Britain.

We know customers want certainty and reliability, which is why we are introducing a temporary timetable - operating around 1,660 services each day - in place of late-notice cancellations.

Details of the temporary timetable can be viewed below, and train times are available in Journey Planner in the coming days.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
Sensible thing to do but of course the acid test of this will be if there are further cancellations with this timetable.
Hopefully it provides more certainty over what will run. It appears to come into affect tomorrow, Wednesday, so we'll see how many cancellations occur tomorrow vs this new timetable.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
Any clue as to how long this timetable is expected to be in operation?
Probably until mid-late august when the schools go back, or early September
They haven't said how long, but given that they were operating the June timetable just about okay before now (there were some cancellations through the weeks but nowhere near as many), September would seem a fair estimation.

Not sure how the recruitment/training is going either, to bolster staffing levels.
 

snookertam

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2018
Messages
927
Some of it is pretty sensible, but the far north has been decimated. Last train from Wick is at 1234!

If this is likely to mirror the school holiday times, then end of August would be a fair assumption for returning to normal - Scottish schools are back mid to late August - but I’d have hoped if anything was to be reduced it’d be commuter services in the central belt rather than services in the west highlands that are used by tourists. But on the other hand they can’t choose where their traincrew availability is for now so they’ve probably little choice in the matter.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
Some of it is pretty sensible, but the far north has been decimated. Last train from Wick is at 1234!

If this is likely to mirror the school holiday times, then end of August would be a fair assumption for returning to normal - Scottish schools are back mid to late August - but I’d have hoped if anything was to be reduced it’d be commuter services in the central belt rather than services in the west highlands that are used by tourists. But on the other hand they can’t choose where their traincrew availability is for now so they’ve probably little choice in the matter.
Smaller depots are probably disproportionately affected than large ones.
 

Twingo37175

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2019
Messages
246
Some of it is pretty sensible, but the far north has been decimated. Last train from Wick is at 1234!

I assume there is a further issue around the depot and crewing from either end given there are 3 northbound trains but only 2 southbound.
 

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
Probably until mid-late august when the schools go back, or early September

They haven't said how long, but given that they were operating the June timetable just about okay before now (there were some cancellations through the weeks but nowhere near as many), September would seem a fair estimation.

Not sure how the recruitment/training is going either, to bolster staffing levels.

Some of it is pretty sensible, but the far north has been decimated. Last train from Wick is at 1234!

If this is likely to mirror the school holiday times, then end of August would be a fair assumption for returning to normal - Scottish schools are back mid to late August - but I’d have hoped if anything was to be reduced it’d be commuter services in the central belt rather than services in the west highlands that are used by tourists. But on the other hand they can’t choose where their traincrew availability is for now so they’ve probably little choice in the matter.

It is very naive to assume that once the Scottish school summer holiday is over that drivers in ScotRail will suddenly make themselves available for rest day working again.

I fully expect the temporary timetable to continue until such time as a pay offer that meets the approval of the drivers is tabled. Until then, expect a decimated service.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
It is very naive to assume that once the Scottish school summer holiday is over that drivers in ScotRail will suddenly make themselves available for rest day working again.

I fully expect the temporary timetable to continue until such time as a pay offer that meets the approval of the drivers is tabled. Until then, expect a decimated service.
I'm assuming nothing, just that if it was going to improve in the short-term, September seemed the best bet.

I'm fully prepared for the rumours of service reductions in the full December timetable to turn out to be true, let alone extension of the new temporary timetable reductions.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,291
I assume there is a further issue around the depot and crewing from either end given there are 3 northbound trains but only 2 southbound.
So, on the Far North line, Northbound from Inverness at 0700, 1400 and 1831 (1041 cancelled) and Southbound from Wick at 0618 and 1234 (0802 and 1600 cancelled). Si, does that mean an ECS working at some random time of the day, or maybe a double length Southbound train?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,324
Location
Glasgow
So, on the Far North line, Northbound from Inverness at 0700, 1400 and 1831 (1041 cancelled) and Southbound from Wick at 0618 and 1234 (0802 and 1600 cancelled). Si, does that mean an ECS working at some random time of the day, or maybe a double length Southbound train?
There seem to be some errors in some times under certain routes, so I'm wondering if the Far North has an omission by mistake?

Unfortunately, despite them saying their journey planner has been updated, I'm still getting the full timetable displaying in searches.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top