Should there be more Liverpool to Scotland services?

[Topological]

Yes, that was my point. I was astonished there's no coach, but there indeed isn't.

It would be interesting to know what the loadings on the TPE Glasgows are, it's quite possible that it's mostly just stuff like Liverpool-Preston and Preston-Scotland as separate journeys rather than many going through, a bit like the way hardly anyone travels all the way from Liverpool to Norwich on that service. (Indeed even on the Euston-Glasgows, unlike the Edinburghs, there's a lot of passenger turnover in the North West).

Even IF the loadings were such that there were as many continuing at Preston as presently continue on the Manchester Airport, then that would still not indicate a pent up demand.

The annecdotes on this thread suggest there is a through market (which I do not doubt), but not to the extent that it is a practical replacement for an hourly Manchester Airport.

 

[frodshamfella]

Could you provide any direct quotes where posters have said that? Most posts I can see are asking for two-hourly at best - half of what Manchester gets.

That would be great.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2024 ==

How would you find that out? What is an 'average' Mancunian (bearing in mind it also includes Boltonian, Oldhamian, Rochdalian, Stockportian etc)? Possibly Manchester has a rather higher proportion than Liverpool of business-type people who would travel fairly regularly to the capital... though only relatively, as Liverpool has many. Be that as it may, the need for Liverpool to have more London trains has already been accepted by the PTB (powers that be); as for Scotland, the more trains there are the more people are likely to travel.

That's true.

 

[Topological]

Commercial operators, who are beholden unto their shareholders dividends, chose to make Manchester to London 3 trains per hour. Liverpool is gaining a second London train.

Commercial operators do not even provide a coach to Scotland from Edinburgh. That is the recently revealed elephant that is not being recognised.

Posters asking for 1 train every 2 hours are either (a) finding a path that struggles to exist or (b) taking the path of the Manchester. In the case of (b) it would not be a case of Liverpool having half of what Manchester has, by definition.

I am still seeing no redress to the fact that improvements can be made to the connecting services between the WCML and Liverpool without reducing anyone paths to anywhere.

 

[frodshamfella]

Indeed, and I'd say Liverpool has a far bigger tourist pull, especially overseas tourists who are likely to be seeing lots of Britain, and often by train. Edinburgh may be a more useful destination than Glasgow though for this group.

That's true, it's a big tourist city these days. Edinburgh is the same.

 

[Krokodil]

Posters asking for 1 train every 2 hours are either (a) finding a path that struggles to exist or (b) taking the path of the Manchester.

In the hours in which it does run, the Liverpool service currently runs either immediately ahead of, or immediately behind the Manchester service. In the other three hours out of four, what otherwise occupies the white space? I'm just looking at the timings over Shap and while there's the odd hour where the path is occupied by a postal service it's by no means every hour.

 

[AndrewE]

Commercial operators, who are beholden unto their shareholders dividends, chose to make Manchester to London 3 trains per hour. Liverpool is gaining a second London train.

Commercial operators do not even provide a coach to Scotland from Edinburgh. That is the recently revealed elephant that is not being recognised.

Posters asking for 1 train every 2 hours are either (a) finding a path that struggles to exist or (b) taking the path of the Manchester. In the case of (b) it would not be a case of Liverpool having half of what Manchester has, by definition.

I am still seeing no redress to the fact that improvements can be made to the connecting services between the WCML and Liverpool without reducing anyone paths to anywhere.

Do you mean "from Liverpool?"

 

[Topological]

Do you mean "from Liverpool?"

Yes. From Liverpool to Scotland. Agree that should have been clearer.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes. From Liverpool to Scotland. Agree that should have been clearer.

that does surprise me, I would say they are missing an opportunity. There must be a blind spot in the national psyche over any provision for Liverpool.

As people here will immediately reply that "the coach firms know their market" I must say that I find it hard to believe. I have seen a huge queue for a train to Liverpool at Glasgow, but recognise that doesn't mean that the service would be viable the all day long the whole week. I do understand that serving peak flows is poor business, but I can't believe that the Manchester trains run so well-loaded while there is no demand for Liverpool... Manchester airport is being challenged by Liverpool John Lennon now, with more and more operators and destinations from Lpool, so that will drive demand up even more.

 

[Topological]

that does surprise me, I would say they are missing an opportunity. There must be a blind spot in the national psyche over any provision for Liverpool.

As people here will immediately reply that "the coach firms know their market" I must say that I find it hard to believe. I have seen a huge queue for a train to Liverpool at Glasgow, but recognise that doesn't mean that the service would be viable the all day long the whole week. I do understand that serving peak flows is poor business, but I can't believe that the Manchester trains run so well-loaded while there is no demand for Liverpool... Manchester airport is being challenged by Liverpool John Lennon now, with more and more operators and destinations from Lpool, so that will drive demand up even more.

Perhaps.

But equally likely is that the current provision with trains and connections works (not as well as it should, of course) sufficiently well that a coach does not compete.

Of course there is an element of build it and they will come, but...

Liverpool John Lennon is complimentary to Manchester, but is not about to start launching transatlantic flights and I doubt we will see the wide bodies going to Liverpool either. Manchester would probably be quite happy to be rid of a few of the smaller carriers from what I can see of the place. Certainly, passenger numbers from Manchester will dwarf those from Liverpool even if flight numbers become similar. Hence the argument that what Liverpool really needs is a way to get passengers from the plane and to Liverpool effectively.

Whether it is the airport, or something about Manchester, the demand for Scottish services has only grown while I have known the line. Hence the 3-car 185s have given way to something much more suitable in the 397s. The hourly service is also a big step up from the timetable when CrossCountry ran the trains.

 

[AndrewE]

Perhaps.

But equally likely is that the current provision with trains and connections works (not as well as it should, of course) sufficiently well that a coach does not compete.

Of course there is an element of build it and they will come, but...

Liverpool John Lennon is complimentary to Manchester, but is not about to start launching transatlantic flights and I doubt we will see the wide bodies going to Liverpool either. Manchester would probably be quite happy to be rid of a few of the smaller carriers from what I can see of the place. Certainly, passenger numbers from Manchester will dwarf those from Liverpool even if flight numbers become similar. Hence the argument that what Liverpool really needs is a way to get passengers from the plane and to Liverpool effectively.

Whether it is the airport, or something about Manchester, the demand for Scottish services has only grown while I have known the line. Hence the 3-car 185s have given way to something much more suitable in the 397s. The hourly service is also a big step up from the timetable when CrossCountry ran the trains.

I was thinking of the holiday flights to European destinations, which are far cheaper from Manchester than from Scottish airports. I'm expecting lots of Scots to go from Liverpool instead - as we shall. it's an infinitely better experience than using Manchester, even if you do have to get a bus from S Parkway station. (In fact I would say that as the travelators don't work at Manchester any more the Liverpool bus is a better option than walking miles at Manchester!)

 

[Djgr]

Commercial operators, who are beholden unto their shareholders dividends, chose to make Manchester to London 3 trains per hour.

These decisions were made years ago, before the timetable was frozen in aspic.

Times change.

When I worked in Liverpool in the 1980s there were around four hotels for tourists in the city centre. Now there are around forty.

What has lagged behind is a more appropriate provision of services in light of the renaissance of the city.

Seriously, in the context of the new government, what relevance do shareholders and dividends have?

I am still seeing no redress to the fact that improvements can be made to the connecting services between the WCML and Liverpool without reducing anyone paths to anywhere.

Well, other posters seem to disagree.

 

[Topological]

These decisions were made years ago, before the timetable was frozen in aspic.

Times change.

When I worked in Liverpool in the 1980s there were around four hotels for tourists in the city centre. Now there are around forty.

What has lagged behind is a more appropriate provision of services in light of the renaissance of the city.

Seriously, in the context of the new government, what relevance do shareholders and dividends have?

Well, other posters seem to disagree.

I do not doubt that there are posters advocating for the direct trains.

No one has yet said what is wrong with the suggestions made to improve the connectivity. All we get on connectivity is that the current trains are cancelled too much and/or shortformed. Neither of which is an argument since the whole point is to fix it.

You may not like the fact, but if the private firms will not do it then it rather suggests that it would be more costly for the state-owned operator to do so as well. The state can subsidise such financially suboptimal outcomes, but would need a strong case to do so. So whilst I would agree the state has no shareholders, the information that shareholder owned firms provide does give insight into the likely costs going into the states cost-benefit analysis.

IF there is a path on the WCML then maybe the state can try losing money for a bit and see what happens. However, the evidence in this thread suggests that the path does not exist most hours (using the posts from February as a guide).

 

[AndrewE]

IF there is a path on the WCML then maybe the state can try losing money for a bit and see what happens. However, the evidence in this thread suggests that the path does not exist most hours (using the posts from February as a guide).

Then let us hope that we can get to a position where staffing and equipment reliability are such that we can dare to couple Liverpool and Manchester portions at Preston again (or even Wigan NW if that saves a path south of Preston.) That would increase capacity/frequency and not cost much more for drivers, just on one southern leg.
(And if we had 1 railway those drivers could shuttle to and fro interworking the local/semi-fast trains too.)

 

[yorksrob]

Trains do seem to wait in preston for longish periods, therefore its hard to see why splitting and joining would be so detrimental to overall performance.

 

[Krokodil]

It's a shame that 397s have replaced 350s. Portion working is so much easier with a gangway.

 

[AndrewE]

It's a shame that 397s have replaced 350s. Portion working is so much easier with a gangway.

Is there any reason why they have to go? The 350 I was on 16.08 south from Lpool was excellent yesterday, went like the wind and (unusually) was not over-full. Someone or small groups in most seating bays, travel was a pleasure. And that was after city-centre trips on the Loop, both of which worked perfectly. Lovely weather at Pier head where we had our picnic too made for a grand day out!

 

[frodshamfella]

that does surprise me, I would say they are missing an opportunity. There must be a blind spot in the national psyche over any provision for Liverpool.

As people here will immediately reply that "the coach firms know their market" I must say that I find it hard to believe. I have seen a huge queue for a train to Liverpool at Glasgow, but recognise that doesn't mean that the service would be viable the all day long the whole week. I do understand that serving peak flows is poor business, but I can't believe that the Manchester trains run so well-loaded while there is no demand for Liverpool... Manchester airport is being challenged by Liverpool John Lennon now, with more and more operators and destinations from Lpool, so that will drive demand up even more.

There is of course demand, it just need provision. If Manchester to Scotland service is busier , that also really down to the fact that there actually is a regular direct service, that itself generates business. Sadly Liverpool does not presently receive an adequate Scottish rail service, if it did you would certainly see higher passenger numbers. Manchester itself did not have direct Scottish services until the late 90s, since then its has grown, Liverpool would do equally well.

Its true to say Liverpool Airport has grown massively in popularity. I was talking to a couple yesterday evening, who were flying from Liverpool Airport and live in Redcar. They actually dislike flying Manchester Airport , it has a poor reputation. With Aer Lingus and Play Airlines, Liverpool Airport offers US connections now, which is popular with inbound tourists. The airport does also deal with wide body jets quite often, with football charters.

 

[Falcon1200]

Manchester itself did not have direct Scottish services until the late 90s.

That is not correct, Manchester has had direct Scottish services for many, many decades, although not at the level of the present day hourly timetable.

 

[frodshamfella]

That is not correct, Manchester has had direct Scottish services for many, many decades, although not at the level of the present day hourly timetable.

It was quoted up thread by another contributor.on here as to being in late 1990s. Just re read "almost no Scottish services until 1997 ". So it does validate my point. Provide a service and usage grows. This would happen similarly for an improved Liverpool service.

 

[Falcon1200]

Provide a service and usage grows. This would happen similarly for an improved Liverpool service.

That is the essential question; Would an improved Liverpool/Scotland service generate sufficient additional usage, over and above that which can currently make the journey by today's few direct trains or by the multiple connections available at Wigan NW or Preston, to justify its provision?

 

[frodshamfella]

That is the essential question; Would an improved Liverpool/Scotland service generate sufficient additional usage, over and above that which can currently make the journey by today's few direct trains or by the multiple connections available at Wigan NW or Preston, to justify its provision?

I see no reason why. Liverpool is as popular destination as Manchester for visitors. There is also no reason to think people in the LCR do not want to visit Scotland, and less so than people from GM .

Historically there were far more direct trains from Liverpool Exchange. That demand can't have just gone. As I said previously, provide convenient, regular, rail services people will use them. If it's not there, people drive, which is not what we should be promoting.

 

[urbophile]

Historically there were far more direct trains from Liverpool Exchange. That demand can't have just gone. As I said previously, provide convenient, regular, rail services people will use them. If it's not there, people drive, which is not what we should be promoting.

Quite. Or in the case of many leisure travellers looking for an easily accessible destination, go somewhere else.

 

[cle]

This is a very tourism minded approach, and super inbound. Do Liverpudlians need trains outbound to Glasgow and/or Edinburgh? Are there close links, a lot of business demand, etc etc?

I genuinely don't think if people decide they want to visit a place, especially a specific/unique place (e.g. Tate North) - they will change their minds based on a train change. I personally do think there is demand, FWIW - but I suspect the market being discussed is saturated or catered for.

 

[frodshamfella]

I don't think Liverpool needs an hourly service to Glasgow / Edinburgh. But I do think an improvement on what there is now should happen. Changing at Preston or Wigan isn't attractive. More direct services are needed. There's no reason to think that people from LCR don't want to visit Scotland for various reasons.

 

[urbophile]

The number of people travelling all the way between Liverpool and Norwich must be infinitesimal. But they seem to think it's worth running the trains because of the places served en route. This would also make sense between Liverpool and Scotland via Leeds and the East Coast - there are more destinations than via the West. But more through trains than present via the West Coast would surely be viable.

 

[frodshamfella]

The number of people travelling all the way between Liverpool and Norwich must be infinitesimal. But they seem to think it's worth running the trains because of the places served en route. This would also make sense between Liverpool and Scotland via Leeds and the East Coast - there are more destinations than via the West. But more through trains than present via the West Coast would surely be viable.

I'm one of them Liverpool South Parkway to Norwich. There are actually more than you imagine who do the whole trip, but i get your point.

 

[Djgr]

I'm one of them Liverpool South Parkway to Norwich. There are actually more than you imagine who do the whole trip, but i get your point.

Yes and my mum used to travel Liverpool to Norwich to visit her sister in Sheringham and my daughter Liverpool to Ely when she was at Cambridge

 

[mpthomson]

I see no reason why. Liverpool is as popular destination as Manchester for visitors. There is also no reason to think people in the LCR do not want to visit Scotland, and less so than people from GM .

Historically there were far more direct trains from Liverpool Exchange. That demand can't have just gone. As I said previously, provide convenient, regular, rail services people will use them. If it's not there, people drive, which is not what we should be promoting.

My bold, it isn't. Liverpool has roughly half the number of overseas visitors than Manchester does and just over half the number of domestic visitors that Manchester does.

https://growthplatform.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Tourism-Data-Summary-July-2023.pdf

 

[frodshamfella]

My bold, it isn't. Liverpool has roughly half the number of overseas visitors than Manchester does and just over half the number of domestic visitors that Manchester does.

https://growthplatform.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Tourism-Data-Summary-July-2023.pdf

Im amazed, its not as an attractive city at all.

The best city breaks in the UK 2026 - Which?

Cities in Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland beat London and the South East in our latest survey of almost 4,000 Which? members

www.which.co.uk

 

[Djgr]

My bold, it isn't. Liverpool has roughly half the number of overseas visitors than Manchester does and just over half the number of domestic visitors that Manchester does.

https://growthplatform.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Tourism-Data-Summary-July-2023.pdf

Of course you missed out the following from the report:

In 2022 Liverpool was the 5th most visited city in the UK for international visitors and 4th in England for domestic visitors for 2019

As had been said on this thread around a million times, just because Liverpool has fewer visitors than Manchester does NOT mean that Manchester should get ALL the trains. I would have thought it is pretty obvious that a city which is the 4th or 5th most visited city in the UK should be provided with a decent provision of direct trains in support of this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2024 ==

Im amazed, its not as an attractive city at all.

The best city breaks in the UK 2026 - Which?

Cities in Northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland beat London and the South East in our latest survey of almost 4,000 Which? members

www.which.co.uk

I think these figures banded around for tourism include a lot of visitors who are really visiting friends and family rather than the sights.