Why is this evening's service - Bolton>Manchester so poor?

[Howardh]

Virtually no trains running, just the 1834 (if it turns up) and the 1954 to get me there and it has to be Piccadilly. If it were engineering works, surely there would be bustitutions? So is there a strike on? Overtime strike? Staff off ill?? I feel for anyone returning tot he airport after a long flight and facing over an hour for a train!

Snapshot of the (lack of) trains this evening. One out and the next four cancelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sundays are voluntary on Northern (West), and due to industrial relations being poor there is a lack of volunteers. It's not just the evening, it's all day throughout Northern (West).

Anyone wishing to travel around the area on Sundays that has an option to go by bus instead is well-advised to do so.

 

[Howardh]

Sundays are voluntary on Northern (West), and due to industrial relations being poor there is a lack of volunteers. It's not just the evening, it's all day throughout Northern (West).

Anyone wishing to travel around the area on Sundays that has an option to go by bus instead is well-advised to do so.

One thing we are short of up here are express services, the 8 Bolton > Manchester takes an hour or more and utilises every stop. So there's no real alternative to the train other than that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing we are short of up here are express services, the 8 Bolton > Manchester takes an hour or more and utilises every stop. So there's no real alternative to the train other than that.

That's because the train service is normally usable, so a competing bus has no chance (and now integration is the plan for Manchester competition isn't on the agenda anyway). But it's reasonably frequent, reliable on Sundays and only two quid.

I just looked at the timetable and it's 50 minutes to just under an hour (depending on time of day), by the way, not well over an hour. Over an hour on weekdays, but we're talking about Sundays.

 

[Howardh]

That's because the train service is normally usable, so a competing bus has no chance (and now integration is the plan for Manchester competition isn't on the agenda anyway). But it's reasonably frequent, reliable on Sundays and only two quid.

I just looked at the timetable and it's 50 minutes to just under an hour (depending on time of day), by the way, not well over an hour. Over an hour on weekdays, but we're talking about Sundays.

Thanks, still don't fancy 50 mins on a bus!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I just looked at the timetable and it's 50 minutes to just under an hour (depending on time of day), by the way, not well over an hour. Over an hour on weekdays, but we're talking about Sundays.

What timetable are you looking at?
The 8 takes a bit over an hour end to end.
36 about an hour and a quarter
37 about an hour and seven mins

Add walking time/tram and it's easily over triple the journey time from Bolton to Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What timetable are you looking at?

Today's timetable on bustimes.org. Running times on a Sunday are between 50 and 62 minutes (I had been looking at inbound, none of which are over an hour, some outbound are 62 minutes). I can't see any over that.

8 - Manchester - Salford Shopping Centre - Bolton

Bee Network - Go North West

bustimes.org

It is slower on weekdays, but this thread is about Sundays (and the lack of Northern services thereon leading to the need for it).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sundays are voluntary on Northern (West), and due to industrial relations being poor there is a lack of volunteers. It's not just the evening, it's all day throughout Northern (West).

Anyone wishing to travel around the area on Sundays that has an option to go by bus instead is well-advised to do so.

I've been somewhat out of the loop of recent times, but it's been the best part of two decades since the combined East/West "Northern" franchise was created.

How come things still haven't been harmonised? Union intransigence or managerial disinterest? Or a combination of the two? It's frankly ridiculous either way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How come things still haven't been harmonised?

Because nobody wants to pay for the only way in which this would be accepted - the combined terms offering the best aspects of both.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Because nobody wants to pay for the only way in which this would be accepted - the combined terms offering the best aspects of both.

Makes sense from an industrial relations POV, I certainly wouldn't begrudge employees refusing to accept harsher conditions. Are there any other TOCs with different conditions in different areas of their network? GWR for example, as they're also an amalgamation of different predecessor TOCs?

 

[Howardh]

Will the new government make any difference? We've been advised by both Northern and TPE "not to travel on Sundays" several times in the last few months, appears from this angle that passengers are last on the priority list.

 

[skyhigh]

I've been somewhat out of the loop of recent times, but it's been the best part of two decades since the combined East/West "Northern" franchise was created.

How come things still haven't been harmonised? Union intransigence or managerial disinterest? Or a combination of the two? It's frankly ridiculous either way.

There are actually  three sets of terms at Northern (for drivers at least) - East, West and Ex-TPE.

For drivers there was a deal on the table, negotiated by the Company and ASLEF, that from memory ASLEF recommended for acceptance. This would have harmonised T&Cs however it was voted out when put to drivers. Before there was a chance to renegotiate Covid happened and it has never since been revisited. Since Covid, the government have held things so tightly that neither the union nor the company could negotiate anything.

Drivers however are not the real issue here. On the West their Sundays are committed overtime. So if there's nobody wanting to cover the shift, you have to work it (with certain exceptions).

West Guards on the other hand have totally voluntary Sunday working. They can simply decline to work - and quite a number have put in a blanket 'not available' for Sundays meaning they won't work any.

 

[muz379]

Will the new government make any difference? We've been advised by both Northern and TPE "not to travel on Sundays" several times in the last few months, appears from this angle that passengers are last on the priority list.

I think it is reasonable to expect that there will be some improvement in industrial relations with the change of government , I dont think anybody is expecting bonanza payrises and unions making generous agreements with drastic changes to terms and conditions . But I think it is sensible to expect that both sides will enter into meaningful negotiations . No doubt ASLEF as an affiliated union will have already been making their case to Labour and there has been some press coverage of the RMT general secretary setting out what he expects as well .

Of course the first priority is resolving the current disputes that exist and settling already open pay claims before looking at terms and conditions to resolve issues like this recurring lack of sunday services in the North West .

I think something has to give on this specific issue but also the industry wide industrial relations issues , especially if they want to go ahead with their plans for rail and keep the Northern Mayors happy .


But really at the minute it is only the 3rd day of new government , so that is largely speculative only time will tell .

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There are actually  three sets of terms at Northern (for drivers at least) - East, West and Ex-TPE.

For drivers there was a deal on the table, negotiated by the Company and ASLEF, that from memory ASLEF recommended for acceptance. This would have harmonised T&Cs however it was voted out when put to drivers. Before there was a chance to renegotiate Covid happened and it has never since been revisited. Since Covid, the government have held things so tightly that neither the union nor the company could negotiate anything.

Drivers however are not the real issue here. On the West their Sundays are committed overtime. So if there's nobody wanting to cover the shift, you have to work it (with certain exceptions).

West Guards on the other hand have totally voluntary Sunday working. They can simply decline to work - and quite a number have put in a blanket 'not available' for Sundays meaning they won't work any.

Thanks for the summary/explanation.
I didn't single out drivers or guards specifically because I didn't know what the specific reasons for the situation were. One would hope that with a new government now in place things can be sorted out, though it understandably won't be a top priority.

 

[thealexweb]

Can any work normally covered by North West crew be transferred to Norrh East to reduce the burden? Like anything east of Manchester Victoria be worked by them?

 

[175001]

No. East crew don't sign west of Manchester Victoria, or the Hope Valley line etc

 

[td97]

But Northern could do special stops on services that do run (Manchester to Cumbria doing all stops from Deansgate to Preston). And 6 carriages rather than 3.
Of course both of those are in the too difficult pile.

 

[vectra33]

The Bolton -Blackburn line has no service at all today and no bus replacements (same as last Sunday), the only train which ran on the line last Sunday was the Glasgow-Derby Intercity charter.

 

[td97]

The Bolton -Blackburn line has no service at all today and no bus replacements (same as last Sunday), the only train which ran on the line last Sunday was the Glasgow-Derby Intercity charter.

In this case, contact Northern's customer contact centre and request a taxi. Alternatively, source your own taxi and send the receipt to Northern as a consequential loss claim.

 

[lincman]

There are actually  three sets of terms at Northern (for drivers at least) - East, West and Ex-TPE.

For drivers there was a deal on the table, negotiated by the Company and ASLEF, that from memory ASLEF recommended for acceptance. This would have harmonised T&Cs however it was voted out when put to drivers. Before there was a chance to renegotiate Covid happened and it has never since been revisited. Since Covid, the government have held things so tightly that neither the union nor the company could negotiate anything.

Drivers however are not the real issue here. On the West their Sundays are committed overtime. So if there's nobody wanting to cover the shift, you have to work it (with certain exceptions).

West Guards on the other hand have totally voluntary Sunday working. They can simply decline to work - and quite a number have put in a blanket 'not available' for Sundays meaning they won't work any.

Would it be really hard for people to understand, railways are run as some individuals persona[ feifdom, as opposed to the Public service they are supposed to be, the best solution until this realised operate 6 day week timetable.

 

[Chew Chew]

Is it just Sundays where there are issues with Northern?

Was in Rotherham last night to see The Reytons at Clifton Park and was heading back to Meadowhall afterwards.

I think 4 out of 5 trains heading towards Sheffield after the concert were all cancelled.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is it just Sundays where there are issues with Northern?

Mostly Sundays but there can be issues on other days.

 

[skyhigh]

Is it just Sundays where there are issues with Northern?

Was in Rotherham last night to see The Reytons at Clifton Park and was heading back to Meadowhall afterwards.

I think 4 out of 5 trains heading towards Sheffield after the concert were all cancelled.

Three Sheffield guard diagrams uncovered yesterday. 2R70 was formed of 5 vice 2 coaches to help with demand as a result however.

 

[Chew Chew]

Three Sheffield guard diagrams uncovered yesterday. 2R70 was formed of 5 vice 2 coaches to help with demand as a result however.

Looking at Real Time Trains that ran 25 minutes late and got into Rotherham at 0023.

That was 2 hours after the concert finished. It just seems like a lack of planning.

I was caught up in the delays on Friday at Newcastle and it was the same there, barely any sort of contingency.

 

[muz379]

Can any work normally covered by North West crew be transferred to Norrh East to reduce the burden? Like anything east of Manchester Victoria be worked by them?

No .

Whilst the east has committed sundays , they dont always have sufficient volunteers above the committment and still run with uncovered turns at times as people on a weeks leave/off on the sick or otherwise off trains cannot cover their turns .

 

[AMD]

Just wait till next Sunday.....

Possible football match and the orange order march in Southport - two things that have focussed minds in the past few days as to whether the NAs are sent in!

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Same thread as every weekend, same things discussed, same industrial relations, same dispute, same east/west divide, same comments about government…

 

[Howardh]

Even on Monday trains are rubbish; fortunately it hit the plans of a few of our local new MP's in Manchester/Bolton!!

'In news that will shock no-one': New MPs... same old problem

MPs have aimed their fire onto Northern and Avanti as they tried to get to London

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

A flurry of new MPs are heading to Westminster for their first week on the job. But many are finding a familiar old problem getting in the way of their plans.

One of Greater Manchester's new MPs was among several newly-elected Labour members to criticise the reliability of train services as they made their way to London this morning (July 8), ahead of their first day in the House of Commons tomorrow. Kirith Entwistle is the new Labour MP for Bolton North East.

Sharing an image from Bolton's railway station on X at 9.36am, she wrote: "Day 1 and my train into Manchester to get to London is cancelled. Off to a great start!"

Both the 9.21am and 9.58am services from Bolton to Manchester, run by Northern, were cancelled this morning. Ms Entwistle wasn't the only MP to be hit by disruption on Northern trains either.

x.com

x.com

Meanwhile, other new MPs turned their fury towards Avanti West Coast, which runs services between the North West and London. Paul Foster, MP for South Ribble in Lancashire, wrote: "Day One on my way to Parliament and guess what... @AvantiWestCoast go and cancel my train just as I get to Preston station. To make matters worse, the train actually pulls into the station! Utter shambles."

 

[Trackman]

Virtually no trains running, just the 1834 (if it turns up) and the 1954 to get me there and it has to be Piccadilly. If it were engineering works, surely there would be bustitutions? So is there a strike on? Overtime strike? Staff off ill?? I feel for anyone returning tot he airport after a long flight and facing over an hour for a train!

Snapshot of the (lack of) trains this evening. One out and the next four cancelled.

View attachment 161358

I'd be playing the Taxi card at the customer service office.

So it's like this every Sunday, then?

Last time I caught a train from Bolton to Man Vic, about 3 months ago, it was cancelled - this was a Saturday, but about 45 mins before it showed as running. Checking through the history of that day, it seems a lot were cancelled, so surely they knew about this previously.

 

[Howardh]

I'd be playing the Taxi card at the customer service office.

So it's like this every Sunday, then?

Last time I caught a train from Bolton to Man Vic, about 3 months ago, it was cancelled - this was a Saturday, but about 45 mins before it showed as running. Checking through the history of that day, it seems a lot were cancelled, so surely they knew about this previously.

At a guess I bet it's destination was Stalybridge! That service although timetabled hourly (??) is appalling nowadays.