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Still cannot see why you would go through Liverpool. There is nowhere from Preston where you would travel via Liverpool (except the immediate Liverpool city region). Preston is simply not in the connection set of Liverpool for any other destination.
If Liverpool had better connections to North Wales such as TfW extending the Chester service to Llandudno, it would be a prime option for connections if we're assuming that the ideal number of connections would be changing trains just once. Whether the demand for Preston to North Wales is there is a separate question entirely, but Liverpool still has connection potential even if it's not quite on the same level as Manchester.
For Scotland trains specifically, as is what the thread is actually about, I would say the current level of service might be somewhat sufficient. In my single journey experience there and back, most of the passenger demand seemed to be on the core of the West Coast Main Line, especially running southbound. I don't quite know how many passengers would actually be doing a proper end-to-end Liverpool to Glasgow service.
If Liverpool had better connections to North Wales such as TfW extending the Chester service to Llandudno, it would be a prime option for connections if we're assuming that the ideal number of connections would be changing trains just once. Whether the demand for Preston to North Wales is there is a separate question entirely, but Liverpool still has connection potential even if it's not quite on the same level as Manchester.
For Scotland trains specifically, as is what the thread is actually about, I would say the current level of service might be somewhat sufficient. In my single journey experience there and back, most of the passenger demand seemed to be on the core of the West Coast Main Line, especially running southbound. I don't quite know how many passengers would actually be doing a proper end-to-end Liverpool to Glasgow service.
Preston to North Wales is a change at Warrington (or Crewe for Avanti)
Trying to inflate the connection potential of Liverpool by dragging places like Preston in is artificial and does little for the comparison with Manchester (especially since Manchester to Preston is faster in any case)
Liverpool should focus on ways to get volumes of people in and out effectively on current routes rather than constantly moaning that it does not have the full set of direct options. There is ample expansion opportunity in train lengths and frequencies for routes which presently connect Liverpool to the WCML / North Wales line (e.g. 2 8-car trains to Birmingham per hour, a second Liverpool to Preston/Blackpool per hour, the 2nd Liverpool to London train, longer trains on Liverpool to Chester, 2nd fast to Manchester Victoria, more capacity on the TPE/EMT to Manchester Piccadilly etc.)
I wouldn't be happy terminating the Liverpool to Norwich, I use that quite often, it's.the only cross country service southward.out of Liverpool. However I do think Liverpool to Scotland services should be improved somewhat too.
Just a thought could the Liverpool to Norwich use Liverpool Central (.when it is expanded) to allow a bit more Lime.Street capacity.
It depends how Central is expanded. It could (and maybe most logically) be simply the hub for an expanded Merseyrail, as a discrete network serving the city and near hinterland. Or it could be a sort of hybrid station or interchange between longer distance services and Merseyrail. If the latter it should have an easily accessible pedestrian connection, using travelators, to make it and Lime Street effectively one station.
Still cannot see why you would go through Liverpool. There is nowhere from Preston where you would travel via Liverpool (except the immediate Liverpool city region). Preston is simply not in the connection set of Liverpool for any other destination.
The fact that Manchester trains are "overcrowded" says the Manchester train needs more carriages. Resolving that resolves your objection to using the Warrington connection for North Wales (or Crewe for South Wales) when travelling from Preston/Wigan/anywhere that connects neatly to these places.
Liverpool requires new paths, which in the case of Scotland are hard to find.
All I see are arguments why Northern needs to improve its offering on connecting services that give the frequent options from Scotland to reach Liverpool. Firstly in length and secondly in reliability.
Liverpool needs direct Welsh connections. Sure you can go.via Crewe from Preston, but from Southport and Ormskirk and stations in between that doesn't work very well. When the long promised direct services arrive, this would.also.give Preston another handy connection for.Wales..
As for Scotland , could not the second Liverpool - London continue to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Or indeed the Scotland Manchester could be every 2 hours thereby allowing an every 2 huurs Scotland to Liverpool. think it was stated further up.the thread Edinburgh -Liverpool was a big market.
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Preston to North Wales is a change at Warrington (or Crewe for Avanti)
Trying to inflate the connection potential of Liverpool by dragging places like Preston in is artificial and does little for the comparison with Manchester (especially since Manchester to Preston is faster in any case)
Liverpool should focus on ways to get volumes of people in and out effectively on current routes rather than constantly moaning that it does not have the full set of direct options. There is ample expansion opportunity in train lengths and frequencies for routes which presently connect Liverpool to the WCML / North Wales line (e.g. 2 8-car trains to Birmingham per hour, a second Liverpool to Preston/Blackpool per hour, the 2nd Liverpool to London train, longer trains on Liverpool to Chester, 2nd fast to Manchester Victoria, more capacity on the TPE/EMT to Manchester Piccadilly etc.)
Quite possibly. BTW, why does TfW's hourly service from Liverpool Lime Street only shuttle to/from Chester, with a few random workings onward to/from Wrexham General.
Liverpool needs direct Welsh connections. Sure you can go.via Crewe from Preston, but from Southport and Ormskirk and stations in between that doesn't work very well. When the long promised direct services arrive, this would.also.give Preston another handy connection for.Wales..
As for Scotland , could not the second Liverpool - London continue to Glasgow or Edinburgh. Or indeed the Scotland Manchester could be every 2 hours thereby allowing an every 2 huurs Scotland to Liverpool. think it was stated further up.the thread Edinburgh -Liverpool was a big market.
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Constantly moaning, the lack of reliable connectivity, hold the city back, and that's not acceptable.
So you want to cut off the biggest market from Scotland every 2 hours?
Do you have estimates for the Preston to Shrewsbury times via Liverpool compared to via Crewe?
Given that the TPE alternates (roughly) between Glasgow and Edinburgh at the north end how would that work opposite Liverpool/Manchester alternation?
What fundamentally is wrong with having a train every 30 minutes from each of (1) Preston (and Wigan as a call), (2) fast Manchester Victoria, (3) fast Manchester Piccadilly, (4) Crewe* (recognising this would actually be 3 trains per hour), and (5) Chester? These frequencies will make most connections from almost everywhere in the North, North East and South work smoothly.
I would add a fast Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Liverpool (either Warrington or Newton-le-Willows as calls depending on route) train back in because the fast Manchester Airport link being removed is something that may actually be having a negative impact on Liverpool.
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Quite possibly. BTW, why does TfW's hourly service from Liverpool Lime Street only shuttle to/from Chester, with a few random workings onward to/from Wrexham General.
Quite possibly. BTW, why does TfW's hourly service from Liverpool Lime Street only shuttle to/from Chester, with a few random workings onward to/from Wrexham General.
It's a new service and not part of an established pattern. The North Wales line from Chester on to Llandudno, Bangor and Holyhead is already served with 2–3 tph, and the line to Wrexham and Shrewsbury has about an hourly service. Increasing the frequency on either of those lines could involve pathing or platforming issues, and would require TfW to acquire additional stock.
It's a new service and not part of an established pattern. The North Wales line from Chester on to Llandudno, Bangor and Holyhead is already served with 2–3 tph, and the line to Wrexham and Shrewsbury has about an hourly service. Increasing the frequency on either of those lines could involve pathing or platforming issues, and would require TfW to acquire additional stock.
The services were in the original "December 2023" timetable released* by TfW when we first learned about things like the 3+2 197s to Manchester etc. However, the implementation of that plan is somewhat delayed and many plans are still being scaled back.
So you want to cut off the biggest market from Scotland every 2 hours?
Do you have estimates for the Preston to Shrewsbury times via Liverpool compared to via Crewe?
Given that the TPE alternates (roughly) between Glasgow and Edinburgh at the north end how would that work opposite Liverpool/Manchester alternation?
What fundamentally is wrong with having a train every 30 minutes from each of (1) Preston (and Wigan as a call), (2) fast Manchester Victoria, (3) fast Manchester Piccadilly, (4) Crewe* (recognising this would actually be 3 trains per hour), and (5) Chester? These frequencies will make most connections from almost everywhere in the North, North East and South work smoothly.
I would add a fast Manchester Airport - Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Liverpool (either Warrington or Newton-le-Willows as calls depending on route) train back in because the fast Manchester Airport link being removed is something that may actually be having a negative impact on Liverpool.
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That is a TfW availability thing. There are not enough 197s for the original plan of longer distance Liverpool services to start.
The argument that Liverpool offers (or would) connections requires that the connection be better than the existing Crewe. It would not be though? (My rough calculations make it worse by some distance)
Manchester passengers CAN also change at Wigan or Preston, but do not because the service has already grown to hourly to meet demand. Taking away a service with proven demand just to allow a "fair" balance of services to Liverpool just shows the mindset really.
So again, what is so wrong with improving the connectivity of Liverpool into WCML services?
Why? Why would people go via Liverpool rather than Warrington? The northbound connection at Warrington is as convenient as connections come (off one train, straight onto another from the same island platform). The southbound connection isn't quite what it was before the Castlefield taskforce moved the TfW service earlier, but with Avanti's usual late running it remains a decent place to interchange. Very different from expecting people to navigate a large terminal.
Quite possibly. BTW, why does TfW's hourly service from Liverpool Lime Street only shuttle to/from Chester, with a few random workings onward to/from Wrexham General.
Why? Why would people go via Liverpool rather than Warrington? The northbound connection at Warrington is as convenient as connections come (off one train, straight onto another from the same island platform). The southbound connection isn't quite what it was before the Castlefield taskforce moved the TfW service earlier, but with Avanti's usual late running it remains a decent place to interchange. Very different from expecting people to navigate a large terminal.
It might depend where you're coming from and whether or not places like Southport or Ormskirk had connections to Warrington. I do admit to forgetting that Warrington had a connection to Wales though so passengers from Preston clearly wouldn't need the transfer in Liverpool.
But that would be getting off topic of Liverpool to Scotland services, in which case I think maybe a few services to Edinburgh might be beneficial, but my primary issue is pricing. Edinburgh seems particularly expensive on that route in my experience, but I can otherwise manage a simple change in Wigan.
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds and the East Coast makes a lot of sense. A through route into Scotland serving many significant destinations en route. Via the West Coast, not so much. Once you get beyond Preston (already well served) there is no major city* until the destination. A few trains to Glasgow would be nice though.
*Apologies to Carlisle, but it isn't really, is it?
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds and the East Coast makes a lot of sense. A through route into Scotland serving many significant destinations en route. Via the West Coast, not so much. Once you get beyond Preston (already well served) there is no major city* until the destination. A few trains to Glasgow would be nice though.
*Apologies to Carlisle, but it isn't really, is it?
Yes reliability of TPE is an issue too. The Liverpool - Glasgow service it's not uncommon to be cancelled. The same Northern service to Wigan, Preston and Blackpool, cancelled, making connections precarious. This is the biggest issue presently. I'd like to see the Liverpool to Edinburgh back, that would be very useful.
Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds and the East Coast makes a lot of sense. A through route into Scotland serving many significant destinations en route. Via the West Coast, not so much. Once you get beyond Preston (already well served) there is no major city* until the destination. A few trains to Glasgow would be nice though.
*Apologies to Carlisle, but it isn't really, is it?
It wasn't really much use for going from Liverpool to Edinburgh unless you're an enthusiast who considers a longer journey better value, as it's much slower than via the WCML changing at Preston. Its main useful purpose was providing a Yorkshire to Scotland service in addition to XC's (which is often overcrowded).
It wasn't really much use for going from Liverpool to Edinburgh unless you're an enthusiast who considers a longer journey better value, as it's much slower than via the WCML changing at Preston.
Just like the XC services between the South West and Scotland which take the slow way around. It's quicker to change in New Street, but most people would prefer to stay on the same train.
It wasn't really much use for going from Liverpool to Edinburgh unless you're an enthusiast who considers a longer journey better value, as it's much slower than via the WCML changing at Preston. Its main useful purpose was providing a Yorkshire to Scotland service in addition to XC's (which is often overcrowded).
Just like the XC services between the South West and Scotland which take the slow way around. It's quicker to change in New Street, but most people would prefer to stay on the same train.
Yes, true, but the journey time differential is so significant that I doubt they would get many through passengers. Those not wanting to change would probably get a lift/drive to Wigan North Western or Warrington Bank Quay and go from there - indeed, going to Wigan NW for such trains is the usual practice in West Lancashire (a fair chunk of Lime St's hinterland).
Interestingly there is no direct Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh coach service at all (I looked it up to compare journey times - a direct coach would probably be quicker than that train) - that says a lot about likely demand.
Given the choice most passengers will go for a direct train. People always worry about connects, with good reason, reliability with Northern and TPE have been abysmal. Of passengers travelling on longer distances are highly likely to have luggage, which makes changing a pain. I might add the poor service offered for connections to WCML at Wigan or Preston will do nothing to encourage passenger usage because of its unreliable nature. Until.thats fixed , it's inadequate.
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Yes, true, but the journey time differential is so significant that I doubt they would get many through passengers. Those not wanting to change would probably get a lift/drive to Wigan North Western or Warrington Bank Quay and go from there - indeed, going to Wigan NW for such trains is the usual practice in West Lancashire (a fair chunk of Lime St's hinterland).
Interestingly there is no direct Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh coach service at all (I looked it up to compare journey times - a direct coach would probably be quicker than that train) - that says a lot about likely demand.
Coach services have been slashed since Covid, there are barely any from Chester ot Warrington anymore . The days you could pick up a London National Express from say Runcorn or Heswall easily have gone. See no reason why there is not decent demand to and from Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Liverpool, we are talking about some of the UK most visited cities.
Given the choice most passengers will go for a direct train. People always worry about connects, with good reason, reliability with Northern and TPE have been abysmal. Of passengers travelling on longer distances are highly likely to have luggage, which makes changing a pain.
I think there are limits to that in journey time terms, and remember that a good many people in the City Region will have access by car to other stations e.g. Warrington/Wigan/Preston if direct service is important.
Liverpool to Newcastle is about 3.5 hours, Newcastle to Edinburgh about 1.5 hours, giving a total of around 5 hours. Wigan NW to Edinburgh is under 3 hours. That's a big difference, and remember most people don't live in Liverpool city centre so will need to get to Lime St on top, so getting to Warrington/Wigan/Preston may not be substantially less convenient.
If you're going to Glasgow, the difference is even more pronounced - longer via the ECML, about half an hour quicker via the WCML.
I suspect coach would be quicker from Liverpool to Glasgow than via the ECML, but there aren't any, which would suggest the demand to be very low. Putting on a coach service a couple of times a day if there's demand would be a no-brainer, but none of the big three (NatEx, Megabus, Flix) do it at all.
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Coach services have been slashed since Covid, there are barely any from Chester ot Warrington anymore . The days you could pick up a London National Express from say Runcorn or Heswall easily have gone. See no reason why there is not decent demand to and from Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Liverpool, we are talking about some of the UK most visited cities.
NatEx have certainly pruned their "odd" services serving quieter destinations e.g. the one that went to Ormskirk. However, the trunk ones between big cities remain where demand exists. That they don't think they can sell 50 seats between Liverpool and Scotland tells me a lot.
We still have a lot of National Express coming into Swansea. Flixbus also appear as do Megabus. That is all despite GWR offering a very good direct London train.
We also get National Express to Birmingham and down through Bristol. These are both one change away and relatively fast via Bristol Parkway.
A lack of National Express really does suggest low demand. I cannot see how the more expensive train would unlock demand in such cases. Maybe this is even why Northern are not investing in the connection options between Liverpool and Wigan/Warrington Bank Quay.
I think there are limits to that in journey time terms, and remember that a good many people in the City Region will have access by car to other stations e.g. Warrington/Wigan/Preston if direct service is important.
Liverpool to Newcastle is about 3.5 hours, Newcastle to Edinburgh about 1.5 hours, giving a total of around 5 hours. Wigan NW to Edinburgh is under 3 hours. That's a big difference, and remember most people don't live in Liverpool city centre so will need to get to Lime St on top, so getting to Warrington/Wigan/Preston may not be substantially less convenient.
If you're going to Glasgow, the difference is even more pronounced - longer via the ECML, about half an hour quicker via the WCML.
I suspect coach would be quicker from Liverpool to Glasgow than via the ECML, but there aren't any, which would suggest the demand to be very low. Putting on a coach service a couple of times a day if there's demand would be a no-brainer, but none of the big three (NatEx, Megabus, Flix) do it at all.
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NatEx have certainly pruned their "odd" services serving quieter destinations e.g. the one that went to Ormskirk. However, the trunk ones between big cities remain where demand exists. That they don't think they can sell 50 seats between Liverpool and Scotland tells me a lot.
Yes,.but demand grows when a service is there and reliable. None of that is in place. When I've gone to Edinburgh ( From Frodsham) I've changed at WBQ, it's always a.worry, because TFW.to Manchester is often late. I never drive into Warrington, the traffic is appalling and parking at BQ isn't brilliant. I would also go Acton Bridge or Runcorn to Liverpool and then Scotland, Runcorn has good car parking , Acton Bridge, well I can walk. However waiting for a decent service.
As.for National Express , I think they have effectively cut themselves off from a lot of the potential customers with no hinterland pick ups, where as you say people live. Perhaps students and city living residents are enough. Maybe someone might know what coach network was available in the past.
As.for National Express , I think they have effectively cut themselves off from a lot of the potential customers with no hinterland pick ups, where as you say people live. Perhaps students and city living residents are enough.
With NatEx mostly used by non-drivers, most would probably get a lift, take a taxi, take a bus or take Merseyrail into Liverpool to pick up the coach, just as they would be doing to get to your direct Liverpool-Scotland service. Much as I'm sure people on here hark back to direct Ormskirk to Edinburgh services, 4tph of Merseyrail is a far better service than something looking more like the mess in suburban Manchester.
We still have a lot of National Express coming into Swansea. Flixbus also appear as do Megabus. That is all despite GWR offering a very good direct London train.
We also get National Express to Birmingham and down through Bristol. These are both one change away and relatively fast via Bristol Parkway.
A lack of National Express really does suggest low demand. I cannot see how the more expensive train would unlock demand in such cases. Maybe this is even why Northern are not investing in the connection options between Liverpool and Wigan/Warrington Bank Quay.
I can see you would probably be rather happy with a Liverpool - Runcorn shuttle and Liverpool- Manchester- Wigan shuttle, and leave a some what larger city than Swansea ( I wonder if you have ever seen how busy Lime.Street Station is !? ) left unconnected. You clearly don't know the area.
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With NatEx mostly used by non-drivers, most would probably get a lift, take a taxi, take a bus or take Merseyrail into Liverpool to pick up the coach, just as they would be doing to get to your direct Liverpool-Scotland service. Much as I'm sure people on here hark back to direct Ormskirk to Edinburgh services, 4tph of Merseyrail is a far better service than something looking more like the mess in suburban Manchester.
I can see you would probably be rather happy with a Liverpool - Runcorn shuttle and Liverpool- Manchester- Wigan shuttle, and leave a some what larger city than Swansea ( I wonder if you have ever seen how busy Lime.Street Station is !? ) left unconnected. You clearly don't know the area.
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Oh I agree Merseyrail makes a massive difference, it's very reliable and frequent, unfortunately the are still gaps in central and south Liverpool.
I was making the point that National Express do think about markets. IF they see the chance to make money, even from somewhere as small as Swansea, then they run the coach. That they do not run a coach means that they must not see the market. If National Express cannot see the market then I would suggest that there is not one, coach costs are much lower than train costs.
I regularly go to Lime Street and know exactly how busy it is. I know how inadequate the 3 car 323s are on the Manchester to Liverpool and know the challenges the punctuality of TPE/East Mids places. There are many improvements needed, but all related to getting the correct trains onto current services and making sure those trains are punctual.
Who is leaving Liverpool unconnected (well apart from the coach companies, but they are not I)?
As to a Liverpool to Runcorn shuttle, that is completely misrepresenting. I have never argued for such and would like it if you could stick to what I have argued for. For clarity
Liverpool - Wigan - Preston 2 tph with at least 4 carriages
Liverpool - Manchester Victoria (semi-fast) 2 tph with at least 4 carriages
Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly (semi-fast) 2 tph with at least 4 carriages
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay (stopped) 2 tph with at least 4 carriages
Liverpool - Crewe - Birmingham (semi-fast) 2 tph with at least 4 carriages (ideally using 5 x 730 or 8 x 350)
I just do not see the need for long distance Liverpool services over and above the London (or Norwich/TPE via Leeds if they count)
I was making the point that National Express do think about markets. IF they see the chance to make money, even from somewhere as small as Swansea, then they run the coach. That they do not run a coach means that they must not see the market. If National Express cannot see the market then I would suggest that there is not one, coach costs are much lower than train costs.
Yes, that was my point. I was astonished there's no coach, but there indeed isn't.
It would be interesting to know what the loadings on the TPE Glasgows are, it's quite possible that it's mostly just stuff like Liverpool-Preston and Preston-Scotland as separate journeys rather than many going through, a bit like the way hardly anyone travels all the way from Liverpool to Norwich on that service. (Indeed even on the Euston-Glasgows, unlike the Edinburghs, there's a lot of passenger turnover in the North West).
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