Tickets valid "As Advertised" - advertised where?

[BRX]

Walk-up tickets often have this written on them.

"As advertised"? Advertised where? As far as I know the only way to be fully aware of the validity of a non-train-specific ticket is to look it up in the fares manual which is not publicly and easily available, and even if there was a fully up-to-date fares manual in every public library, I don't think you could describe the information as being "advertised".

To me, "advertised" would mean easily accessible online via the issuing company's website, or available at every train station.

Would it be interesting to see what Trading Standards think?

(The same applies to "See Restrictions". See them where??)

 

[lyesbkz]

"As advertised"? Advertised where?

As advertised at the point of sale (internet sales give details of the ticket's validity, over-the-counter you may ask for the validity details, and TVMs I have used display the validity on-screen before payment).

the only way to be fully aware of the validity of a non-train-specific ticket is to look it up in the fares manual

Isn't it possible to ring up National Rail Enquiries and request the details of your ticket's validity?

To me, "advertised" would mean easily accessible online via the issuing company's website, or available at every train station.

Putting them online really isn't such a bad idea, but as I say I'm sure you may request the ticket details over the counter. Yes, I agree that it's a bit too difficult to get hold of the details but it's not like they're trying to intentionally keep the details from you.

"See Restrictions". See them where??

NRE's website does show the restriction codes and details - despite being quite hidden away they are still there and available to the public.

 

[yorkie]

The best way to obtain ticket restrictions is by using Avantix Traveller NFM, which is available for purchase for a fee of approx £9 + VAT + P&P, for the CD, from TSO. (occasionally this is 'leaked' on file sharing sites, but we don't allow discussions on how to do that)

Alternatively you can use the National Rail Enquiries site, make a journey enquiry, click Check Fares, select a ticket (e.g. Off Peak Return), then look in the blue box under this table titled 'Tickets' and you can then click on the ticket type in this box, this opens a page with generic information about that ticket type, scroll to the bottom of this page, and under 'Restrictions' there is a hyperlink that reads "view the complete list of 'Validity Codes' applicable to the ticket type that you have selected" clicking this hyperlink opens the full restriction text of that ticket in a PDF file. (A full list of all restrictions is available in PDF files for both Advance and Off Peak fares).

You can also 'phone National Rail Enquiries, or ask at any staffed station.

 

[BRX]

aha, I didn't know all that was available on NRE. I will have a closer look in the morning.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to correct Yorkie slightly, in the restrictions section there are two links, the first is to the specific restriction code, the second lists all the restrictions.

 

[Deerfold]

It would make it easier of course if the restriction code was printed on the ticket - then you could simply look at the list of restrictions.

 

[sheff1]

It would make it easier of course if the restriction code was printed on the ticket - then you could simply look at the list of restrictions.

I agree, but when I suggested this a few weeks ago people said there wasn't enough room on the ticket. Quite how 'See Restriction 8A', for example, would take up too much room on a ticket I do not know.

 

[button_boxer]

Maybe they're worried people will mistake the "8A" for a seat reservation and then kick off when there's already somebody sitting in coach A seat 8...

 

[lyesbkz]

Maybe they're worried people will mistake the "8A" for a seat reservation and then kick off when there's already somebody sitting in coach A seat 8...

Maybe they could append it to one of the many (obscure to your average traveller) codes already on the ticket, that way people who knew where to look would be able to find it, and others would simply ignore it and assume it was part of some long, arbitrary ticket number?

 

[BRX]

I have to say, I didn't realise you could find the full validity restrictions on NRE (albeit buried rather deeply) - so fair enough. Knowing this is going to make things easier for me in the future.

I do agree though that the code should be printed on the ticket, and there should be some way of easily looking up what it means.

It might be that I buy, say, an off-peak return, without knowing exactly when I'm going to use the return portion. Then, three weeks later, I want to check which trains I can use it on... is there a straightforward way of doing that at present, other than asking at a ticket office?

 

[island]

You can look it up online, or in Avantix Traveller if you own it.

 

[BRX]

You can look it up online,

How exactly - do I have to make a fictional journey search in NRE and see if it offers me something that matches my ticket?

And what if my ticket is, say an off-peak return and says "see restrictions"... how do I know that there isn't more than one type of off-peak return between the destinations on my ticket?

 

[island]

How exactly - do I have to make a fictional journey search in NRE and see if it offers me something that matches my ticket?

Basically yes.

And what if my ticket is, say an off-peak return and says "see restrictions"... how do I know that there isn't more than one type of off-peak return between the destinations on my ticket?

There is never "more than one type of off-peak return". But off-peak return, off-peak day return, super off-peak return, etc. are all different.

 

[wintonian]

How exactly - do I have to make a fictional journey search in NRE and see if it offers me something that matches my ticket?

And what if my ticket is, say an off-peak return and says "see restrictions"... how do I know that there isn't more than one type of off-peak return between the destinations on my ticket?

Or see my sig.

 

[island]

That would be good if he knew the restriction code for his ticket already

 

[wintonian]

That would be good if he knew the restriction code for his ticket already

Ah sorry still a bit confused after all the sedatives, pain killers and general anaesthetic I had today.

Depending on which TOC you’re using couldn't you just pick one that looks good and say that’s the one?

 

[BRX]

Basically yes.

It hardly seems a satisfactory method to me...apart from anything else I'd potentially have to scroll through the entire day to find it if it was a super-off-peak ticket only valid on a few trains a day.

There is never "more than one type of off-peak return". But off-peak return, off-peak day return, super off-peak return, etc. are all different.

Are you sure?

For example if I do a search for London-York I can find an off-peak return for £124 and another for £75.

I realise in this case the £75 one may be Grand Central only (although this is not actually clear on NRE - there is nothing I can see on there that would alert me to this fact, including within the validity code restrictions) and therefore presumably has "Grand Central only" similar printed on the actual ticket.

 

[BRX]

Another point - straying a little from the thread topic but still on the subject of whether it's clear what you are actually getting when you purchase a ticket:

Say I want to get an off-peak return from London to Brighton. In the journey search I enter "London (any station)". I see that there is a £27 off-peak return and a £29 off-peak return. They are given for departures from London Bridge and Victoria respectively.

How do I know whether one, both, or neither of these tickets is valid from "London Terminals"? I can't see this information anywhere on NRE. This would be very relevant if I wanted to leave from LB but return to Victoria.

At the top of the page it says from "London (all stations)". If I take this to be true for each of the tickets listed, then we are at a situation where there are two "off peak returns" with differing validity on the same route.

(See the screenshot below)

 

[bb21]

I realise in this case the £75 one may be Grand Central only (although this is not actually clear on NRE - there is nothing I can see on there that would alert me to this fact, including within the validity code restrictions) and therefore presumably has "Grand Central only" similar printed on the actual ticket.

Yes I think it will be printed on the ticket.

At the top of the page it says from "London (all stations)". If I take this to be true for each of the tickets listed, then we are at a situation where there are two "off peak returns" with differing validity on the same route.

(See the screenshot below)

The £27 ticket would be FCC Only so would appear on the ticket.

Not sure how you would be able to tell the difference. I suppose using WebTIS would help.

 

[BRX]

The £27 ticket would be FCC Only so would appear on the ticket.

But there's no way of knowing this at the time of ticket purchase?

 

[ainsworth74]

But there's no way of knowing this at the time of ticket purchase?

Certainly on WebTis powered booking engines (East Coast, London Midland and Southern) it does say after you've put the ticket in your basket:

valid via: First Capital Connect Only.

Not sure if it does the same on trainline powered booking engines.

 

[bb21]

Certainly on WebTis powered booking engines (East Coast, London Midland and Southern) it does say after you've put the ticket in your basket:

valid via: First Capital Connect Only.

Not sure if it does the same on trainline powered booking engines.

Yes. In WebTIS, if you hover the mouse over the fare itself, it would indicate that it is FCC Only.

 

[BRX]

I've tried on the Southern site.
Yes it does say "FCC only" when you hover your mouse over the £27 fare. In the info box underneath it says "London Terminals to Brighton"
There is a £29 fare which just says "off peak return" under the mouse hover and "London Victoria to Brighton" in the info box.
And a £29.20 fare which also says "off peak return" under the mouse hover but "London Terminals to Brighton" in the info box.

For the £29 and £29.20 fares, once I have put them in the basket, they both say "London Terminals to Brighton". I can't see anywhere on the Southern site which tells me what their restrictions codes are though.

So it seems that if I want to buy an off-peak return London terminals to Brighton, and know which trains I can use it on, I need to do the following:
- Open NRE
- Create a journey search
- See which return fares are available
- Find that there is a £27 fare and a £29 fare
- Click through several links to find the restriction code for each, and note this down
(at this stage I don't know whether they are route restricted, just what times they are restricted to)
- Open the Southern site
- Make a journey search (again)
- Scroll through the fare options to find fares with the same prices
- Find a £27 fare and a £29 fare
- Hope that these correspond to the fares I saw on NRE
- (Wonder what the £29.20 fare is all about)
- Put both the £27 fare and the £29 fare in the shopping basket, and then look to see whether either is valid "London Terminals"
- Realise I can't go to Brighton after all because I've spent half the afternoon trying to work out the ticket validities.

Ought there not to be something on the NRE site where I can simply give an origin (where I can specify for example "London Terminals") and a destination, and then have it list all the available fares for that journey, with a) routing restrictions and b) travel time restrictions, clearly identified for each?

 

[bb21]

Looking at Avantix Traveller:

London Victoria - Brighton SVR £29.00
Brighton - London Victoria SVR £28.30

London Terminals - Brighton SVR £29.20
London Terminals - Brighton SVR £27.00 FCC Only
Both fares are reversible.

It seems that the (slightly) cheaper fare is the dedicated fare for this specific flow. However I agree, it is very confusing to someone who doesn't know what is actually going on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the £29 and £29.20 fares, once I have put them in the basket, they both say "London Terminals to Brighton".

I just had a try. I don't think the £29 fare says "London Terminals" though. It says "London Victoria" everywhere I looked.

I can't see anywhere on the Southern site which tells me what their restrictions codes are though.

I'm not aware that you can. NRE is the only place I'm aware that does it.

Ought there not to be something on the NRE site where I can simply give an origin (where I can specify for example "London Terminals") and a destination, and then have it list all the available fares for that journey, with a) routing restrictions and b) travel time restrictions, clearly identified for each?

I think WebTIS is as good as you're gonna get for now. Thetrainline based sites also have a similar function which lists all fares for the flow but it only gives ticket type, route and fare, with no mention of defined origin and destination. I agree though that such a facility would be useful. So much so for joined up thinking eh?

 

[island]

Are you sure?

For example if I do a search for London-York I can find an off-peak return for £124 and another for £75.

I realise in this case the £75 one may be Grand Central only (although this is not actually clear on NRE - there is nothing I can see on there that would alert me to this fact, including within the validity code restrictions) and therefore presumably has "Grand Central only" similar printed on the actual ticket.

Sorry, you've caught me out. And of course there are sometimes different restriction codes applicable to different routes for the same ticket (e.g. London to Milton Keynes C)!

 

[talltim]

There is never "more than one type of off-peak return". But off-peak return, off-peak day return, super off-peak return, etc. are all different.

Haven't you just contradicted yourself?

 

[island]

Haven't you just contradicted yourself?

Not within that quote (an off-peak day return is not an off-peak return, as far as I am concerned) but the different routes do knock out my original assertion.

 

[BRX]

Next time I have a ticket with "as advertised" or "see restrictions" on it, I think I'll write to ATOC and ask them where the restrictions are advertised, and see what they say. Because it doesn't seem to me that they are clearly and fully advertised anywhere.

 

[Greenback]

I think you are right. But I also think ATOC might well argue that it is meant generally, and that it means primarily to draw the customers attention to the difference types of tickets that are available after fares simplification.

Of course, such an argument is as absurd as the fares simplification itself turned out to be. But I expect ATOC to try something liek that, and to maintain that the individual restriction codes are advertised at the time of purchase only, wither by a member of staff where tickets ar ebought in person or voer the phone, or by the website/TVM if there is no human interface.

 

[island]

Many TVMs do a very bad job at (a) advertising restrictions, or (b) selling off-peak tickets when they are valid but it's before 0930. (Case in point, SVR Kidbrooke to Gatwick Airport, restriction code 8A [valid any train, no BOJ outbound] will not be sold by the machine in the morning.)