Need help in Digital fraud mail

[himanimonga]

Hey

I received this mail yesterday and I replied to them with 3 messages but still not received any response.

Can you please guide me because I am in lot of stress. I refunded my 19 tickets and travelled 57 times.

As you have failed to provide the evidence requested on 24th June 2024, we write to inform you that on 17th May 2024 when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket that was not valid for the journey you had completed, possibly committing short journey fraud.



We have further investigated this matter and found 57incidents where you have purchased fraudulent tickets at a value of £558.60 which together with our costs of £150 totals £708.60and should you fail to provide the evidence requested or the sum of £708.60 by 8th July 2024, we will have no alternative but to consider passing this matter to our Prosecutions Team for legal action which will increase the amount payable.



We look forward to hearing from you.



Kind regards

 

[Dai Corner]

What was the evidence requested on the 24 June, and did you / can you provide it?

It would be helpful to the experts here, who I'm sure will be along to advise soon, if you could upload scans/photos of all correspondence. Be sure to hide personal details and reference numbers.

 

[Gloster]

As a first question, did you receive an e-mail on 24 June?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@himanimonga. Welcome to the forum. A bit of relevant background information would be useful. Have you been travelling using railcard discounted tickets in order to save money, but don't actually have an accompanying, valid, in date railcard? Or maybe you've been purchasing tickets online, and then refunding them when they've not been scanned or checked on your various journey(s)?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I received this mail yesterday and I replied to them with 3 messages but still not received any response.

(...)

As you have failed to provide the evidence requested on 24th June 2024,

To help us understand, are you telling us that you sent three replies to the message of 24th June 2024, or that you sent three messages in response to yesterday's mail?

Also...

I refunded my 19 tickets and travelled 57 times.

We have further investigated this matter and found 57incidents where you have purchased fraudulent tickets

So are you saying that you accept that you fare dodged on 57 occasions?

Please let us know the answers to the questions that we're asking as I think they will affect what we want to say to you.

 

[himanimonga]

As a first question, did you receive an e-mail on 24

To help us understand, are you telling us that you sent three replies to the message of 24th June 2024, or that you sent three messages in response to yesterday's mail?

Also...


So are you saying that you accept that you fare dodged on 57 occasions?

Please let us know the answers to the questions that we're asking as I think they will affect what we want to say to you.

I got first mail on 24th June.. and second mail on 1st July that I reposted and I saw on 1st July both the mails. I replied to them with 3 mails still not getting the response.

No I took 19 refunds in total out of 57 incidents.
And I don’t know about the rest of the incidents as ticket scanner scanned the tickets in the train itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

What was the evidence requested on the 24 June, and did you / can you provide it?

It would be helpful to the experts here, who I'm sure will be along to advise soon, if you could upload scans/photos of all correspondence. Be sure to hide personal details and reference numbers.

I got first mail on 24th June.. and second mail on 1st July that I reposted and I saw on 1st July both the mails. I replied to them with 3 mails still not getting the response. I gave evidence of 17th may ticket. But I don’t know about 57 incidents.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

@himanimonga. Welcome to the forum. A bit of relevant background information would be useful. Have you been travelling using railcard discounted tickets in order to save money, but don't actually have an accompanying, valid, in date railcard? Or maybe you've been purchasing tickets online, and then refunding them when they've not been scanned or checked on your various journey(s)?

Yes..some people misguided me if tickets are not scanned you can take the refunds. So I took 19 refunds out of 57 incidents. I don’t know about the rest.

 

[wilsontown]

Sounds like there are two issues here.

1. When you were stopped, you had a short ticket. They have checked your ticket history and found a total of 57 tickets that they think are also short fares.
2. You have also refunded some tickets when you had actually travelled, but it doesn't seem like they are asking you about that.

The experts (I'm not one of those) will want to see what you got from the train company with any identifying details and reference numbers obscured so they can understand what is happening here. But if you really do have 57 instances of short faring you should probably pay what they are asking, and make sure you don't do it again. If you can provide evidence that those tickets are legitimate you should do that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes..some people misguided me if tickets are not scanned you can take the refunds. So I took 19 refunds out of 57 incidents. I don’t know about the rest.

Why would you think that, having made a journey, you could just refund a ticket if someone hadn't scanned it? This is blatantly dishonest, I do not advise you respond to the company saying "some people misguided you".

 

[himanimonga]

Sounds like there are two issues here.

1. When you were stopped, you had a short ticket. They have checked your ticket history and found a total of 57 tickets that they think are also short fares.
2. You have also refunded some tickets when you had actually travelled, but it doesn't seem like they are asking you about that.

The experts (I'm not one of those) will want to see what you got from the train company with any identifying details and reference numbers obscured so they can understand what is happening here. But if you really do have 57 instances of short faring you should probably pay what they are asking, and make sure you don't do it again. If you can provide evidence that those tickets are legitimate you should do that.

They didn’t mentioned detailed information about 57 incidents. How will I get to know.

 

[wilsontown]

They didn’t mentioned detailed information about 57 incidents. How will I get to know.

When you were stopped on the 17th May, what journey were you making and what ticket did you have? I assume they thought you were short faring on that occasion, and have found tickets in your history that are the same (or are otherwise suspicious for potential short faring).

You will know whether you have been short faring or not.

 

[himanimonga]

Why would you think that, having made a journey, you could just refund a ticket if someone hadn't scanned it? This is blatantly dishonest, I do not advise you respond to the company saying "some people misguided you".

So what should I write to them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

When you were stopped on the 17th May, what journey were you making and what ticket did you have? I assume they thought you were short faring on that occasion, and have found tickets in your history that are the same (or are otherwise suspicious for potential short faring).

You will know whether you have been short faring or not.

Sometimes I used to take ticket from different location as I stayed at my friends place and at Airbnb so I took the ticket from that location only. How they can estimate that I am doing it frequently??

 

[AlterEgo]

So what should I write to them?

You should, at a minimum apologise for fraudulently refunding the tickets (don't use the word fraudulent, though).

Sometimes I used to take ticket from different location as I stayed at my friends place and at Airbnb so I took the ticket from that location only. How they can estimate that I am doing it frequently??

It would help if we knew where all of these journeys were from and to, so that we can try to piece together why they might find it suspicious.

 

[himanimonga]

You should, at a minimum apologise for fraudulently refunding the tickets (don't use the word fraudulent, though).

It would help if we knew where all of these journeys were from and to, so that we can try to piece together why they might find it suspicious.

Sometimes I took from Smethwick, Birmingham new street, Selly oak, university.

 

[6Gman]

So what should I write to them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


Sometimes I used to take ticket from different location as I stayed at my friends place and at Airbnb so I took the ticket from that location only. How they can estimate that I am doing it frequently??

You haven't really answered the question about what happened on 17th May when they allege you held a ticket (or tickets) that didn't cover your journey?

If you don't want to give the precise details at least explain along the lines of "I was travelling from A to D, via B & C, but I only had a ticket from A to C" or whatever, and then explain what happened such as "I was stopped at Station D by an Inspector who saw that my ticket was only to C".

Without such details it's very hard to consider your options.

 

[himanimonga]

I was travelling from A to C via B. I was not having ticket from A to B as I forgot to change the from(location). They stopped me but the ticket I was having was B to C. So they took penalty from me. I gave the penalty hand to hand via online payment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

Why would you think that, having made a journey, you could just refund a ticket if someone hadn't scanned it? This is blatantly dishonest, I do not advise you respond to the company saying "some people misguided you".

What do you think I should write as they didn’t Merioneth about refund.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was travelling from A to C via B. I was not having ticket from A to B as I forgot to change the from(location). They stopped me but the ticket I was having was B to C. So they took penalty from me. I gave the penalty hand to hand via online payment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


What do you think I should write as they didn’t Merioneth about refund.

Which stations are involved? It’s hard to give you advice about what they may suspect unless you say where they are.

 

[himanimonga]

When you were stopped on the 17th May, what journey were you making and what ticket did you have? I assume they thought you were short faring on that occasion, and have found tickets in your history that are the same (or are otherwise suspicious for potential short faring).

You will know whether you have been short faring or not.

I used to live with my friend and in airbnb. Then I took the ticket from the nearest station from that place and went for my work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

Which stations are involved? It’s hard to give you advice about what they may suspect unless you say where they are.

Smethwick Rolfe to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

Which stations are involved? It’s hard to give you advice about what they may suspect unless you say where they are.

Smethwick Rolfe street to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

When you were stopped on the 17th May, what journey were you making and what ticket did you have? I assume they thought you were short faring on that occasion, and have found tickets in your history that are the same (or are otherwise suspicious for potential short faring).

You will know whether you have been short faring or not.

I was travelling from Smethwick Rolfe street to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street. I was not having ticket from Smethwick Rolfe street to Birmingham new street

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

I used to live with my friend and in airbnb. Then I took the ticket from the nearest station from that place and went for my work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


Smethwick Rolfe to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


Smethwick Rolfe street to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


I was travelling from Smethwick Rolfe street to Bromsgrove via Birmingham new street. I was not having ticket from Smethwick Rolfe street to Birmingham new street

But after 17th may I make sure that the ticket from and to are correct. But they still counting the tickets after 17th may in 57 incidents.

 

[MotCO]

The rail company alleges that you short-fared them on 57 occasions, but whilst you agree that you have done this on a number of occasions, you feel that it is less than 57 because you were staying elsewhere. Do you have any supporting evidence? If you stayed in AirBnB, then you may have receipts or booking information. Did the rail company state which 57 days they are challenging you with, and if so, can you provide evidence that you were staying in AirBnB on some of these days.

I would respond apologising for not paying the correct fare ( @Hadders has good advice in his forum posts), but also attaching a schedule with evidence of those days which you are disputing. I would not mention anything about refunding tickets - you are not required to incriminate yourself if they have not asked you about it, but you must not lie. Time is not on your side. If you draft your response on here (you don't need to share your evidence), others will comment / make suggestions to make sure it reads well. You should send 'Signed for' so you hae evidence that you sent it - details are here https://www.royalmail.com/sending/uk/signed-for-1st-class

Finally, please, please, please, do not refund any further tickets you have used, nor short fare again. You are on the rail companies' radar, and any further transgressions will not be treated so favourably.

 

[himanimonga]

The rail company alleges that you short-fared them on 57 occasions, but whilst you agree that you have done this on a number of occasions, you feel that it is less than 57 because you were staying elsewhere. Do you have any supporting evidence? If you stayed in AirBnB, then you may have receipts or booking information. Did the rail company state which 57 days they are challenging you with, and if so, can you provide evidence that you were staying in AirBnB on some of these days.

I would respond apologising for not paying the correct fare ( @Hadders has good advice in his forum posts), but also attaching a schedule with evidence of those days which you are disputing. I would not mention anything about refunding tickets - you are not required to incriminate yourself if they have not asked you about it, but you must not lie. Time is not on your side. If you draft your response on here (you don't need to share your evidence), others will comment / make suggestions to make sure it reads well. You should send 'Signed for' so you hae evidence that you sent it - details are here https://www.royalmail.com/sending/uk/signed-for-1st-class

Finally, please, please, please, do not refund any further tickets you have used, nor short fare again. You are on the rail companies' radar, and any further transgressions will not be treated so favourably.

And what about if I am having only 1 week airbnb receipt. Can I mention about my friend that he used to drop me????

 

[AlterEgo]

And what about if I am having only 1 week airbnb receipt. Can I mention about my friend that he used to drop me????

Are you saying your friend dropped you off from Birmingham New Street to Bromsgrove or from Smethwick? (Thereby avoiding buying any ticket at all)

 

[jon0844]

And what about if I am having only 1 week airbnb receipt. Can I mention about my friend that he used to drop me????

Surely you'll be able to access all receipts from your account?

 

[himanimonga]

Yes. Can you please tell me they don’t mentioned about the refund in the mail but when I replied them I mentioned about 19 refunds. This will create an issue against me? Because most of the time the tickets were not scanned or trains were delayed or cancelled?

 

[MotCO]

And what about if I am having only 1 week airbnb receipt. Can I mention about my friend that he used to drop me????

It's difficult without any evidence. Does your phone location data prove you went by road on certain days rather than by rail, assuming the rail route and road route are siginificantly different (ie. the road does not follow the railway)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==

Surely you'll be able to access all receipts from your account?

I took it that maybe he only stayed in AirBnB for a week

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Because most of the time the tickets were not scanned or trains were delayed or cancelled?

The appropriate course of action when youve travelled but been affected by trains that have been delayed or cancelled is to claim Delay Repay, where eligible to do so. With West Midlands Trains, the delay occasioned only has to be 15 minutes. What, however, you don't do is repeatedly help yourself to a full 100% refund.

 

[6Gman]

I'm still struggling to understand what happened here.

On 17th May you were travelling from Smethwick to Bromsgrove, but only had a ticket from New Street to Bromsgrove.

They have then looked at your booking history and found (I presume) some tickets from Smethwick but 57 from New Street. They have assumed that these are other examples of what you did on 17th May, but your view is that although some of them were short fares others were because you were staying in central Birmingham so travelling from New Street only, or that a friend gave you a lift into Birmingham from Smethwick so again your New Street tickets would be legitimate.

Finally you also believe you have made invalid refund claims, but they don't seem to have spotted this.

Is this correct?

 

[himanimonga]

The appropriate course of action when youve travelled but been affected by trains that have been delayed or cancelled is to claim Delay Repay, where eligible to do so. With West Midlands Trains, the delay occasioned only has to be 15 minutes. What, however, you don't do is repeatedly help yourself to a full 100% refund.

I didn’t mentioned anything about delayed. The Trainline customer executive used to check and gave full refund sometimes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

I'm still struggling to understand what happened here.

On 17th May you were travelling from Smethwick to Bromsgrove, but only had a ticket from New Street to Bromsgrove.

They have then looked at your booking history and found (I presume) some tickets from Smethwick but 57 from New Street. They have assumed that these are other examples of what you did on 17th May, but your view is that although some of them were short fares others were because you were staying in central Birmingham so travelling from New Street only, or that a friend gave you a lift into Birmingham from Smethwick so again your New Street tickets would be legitimate.

Finally you also believe you have made invalid refund claims, but they don't seem to have spotted this.

Is this correct?

But after 17th may I am taking ticket from my nearest station and it is correct but still they are counting them as well and making the high amount.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

It's difficult without any evidence. Does your phone location data prove you went by road on certain days rather than by rail, assuming the rail route and road route are siginificantly different (ie. the road does not follow the railway)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2024 ==


I took it that maybe he only stayed in AirBnB for a week

No..because it was in the month of April and first week of may I travelled by road. After 17th may I am using the train and going to nearest station but still they are counting those days also.

 

[John R]

I didn’t mentioned anything about delayed. The Trainline customer executive used to check and gave full refund sometimes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==


But after 17th may I am taking ticket from my nearest station and it is correct but still they are counting them as well and making the high amount.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==


No..because it was in the month of April and first week of may I travelled by road. After 17th may I am using the train and going to nearest station but still they are counting those days also.

If it’s currently your nearest station then can you evidence that by some proof of address and the date it changed?

 

[30907]

Just an observation: of all the stations the OP has mentioned, only Selly Oak has a fare that is more than 10p cheaper, so they haven't saved themselves much by any short-faring (not that it makes any difference in law of course).