Delay repay: delay occurred after voluntary BoJ, ambiguous whether BoJ was legitimate

[redreni]

There are a number of existing threads on delay repay and break of journey, but I don't think this specific point has been discussed before. Apologies if it has, and welcome views.

Travelling on the return portion of an off-peak day return Slade Green to Oxford I had two voluntary breaks of journey, one at High Wycombe and a second at Canary Wharf (I took the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf and transferred to the Elizabeth Line there, but not before I stopped for the best part of an hour to get some Biang Biang noodles and a few bits in Waitrose). The only delay I encountered was on the final journey leg - Thameslink cancelled my intended train from Abbey Wood to Slade Green, forcing me to wait for the next train which arrived at Slade Green 16 minutes after the scheduled arrival time of the cancelled Thameslink train. So I'd like to claim for that delay from Thameslink.

Because of the voluntary breaks of journey, if I supply the times of the trains I used from Oxford (or even from High Wycombe) I assume the data will show I should have been on a much earlier train from Abbey Wood. I was tempted to give the time of the train I caught from Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line, which arrived at Abbey Wood 4 minutes before my intended Thameslink train (which was cancelled) was due to leave, which just meets the MCT at Abbey Wood. But I'm wondering if Thameslink would consider that my break of journey at Canary Wharf was illegitimate?

My ticket permits break of journey, however, I am aware that TfL essentially treat the Elizabeth Line core as part of London Underground for ticketing and cross-London transfer purposes, so would probably say I was not entitled to break my journey at Canary Wharf. In addition, it is unclear how long it is supposed to take to make a cross-London transfer from Marylebone to Abbey Wood, since there is no fixed link in the data? On BR Times I can't find any fixed links between Marylebone and Canary Wharf or between Canary Wharf and Abbey Wood either. So it's difficult to know how a delay repay claim relating to this part of the journey would be assessed? As far as I know I'm allowed to make a cross-London transfer between Marylebone and Abbey Wood using any reasonable route?

I think I will probably make life easier for GTR by simply giving the details of my intended journey between Abbey Wood and Slade Green and providing no further details. I would have been allowed to break my journey at Abbey Wood, so as far as I can see if I tell them I intended to take their train, which was cancelled, which I did, then they should pay out.

 

[yorkie]

There are a number of existing threads on delay repay and break of journey, but I don't think this specific point has been discussed before. Apologies if it has, and welcome views.

Travelling on the return portion of an off-peak day return Slade Green to Oxford I had two voluntary breaks of journey, one at High Wycombe and a second at Canary Wharf (I took the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf and transferred to the Elizabeth Line there, but not before I stopped for the best part of an hour to get some Biang Biang noodles and a few bits in Waitrose). The only delay I encountered was on the final journey leg - Thameslink cancelled my intended train from Abbey Wood to Slade Green, forcing me to wait for the next train which arrived at Slade Green 16 minutes after the scheduled arrival time of the cancelled Thameslink train. So I'd like to claim for that delay from Thameslink.

Because of the voluntary breaks of journey, if I supply the times of the trains I used from Oxford (or even from High Wycombe) I assume the data will show I should have been on a much earlier train from Abbey Wood. I was tempted to give the time of the train I caught from Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line, which arrived at Abbey Wood 4 minutes before my intended Thameslink train (which was cancelled) was due to leave, which just meets the MCT at Abbey Wood. But I'm wondering if Thameslink would consider that my break of journey at Canary Wharf was illegitimate?

My ticket permits break of journey, however, I am aware that TfL essentially treat the Elizabeth Line core as part of London Underground for ticketing and cross-London transfer purposes, so would probably say I was not entitled to break my journey at Canary Wharf. In addition, it is unclear how long it is supposed to take to make a cross-London transfer from Marylebone to Abbey Wood, since there is no fixed link in the data? On BR Times I can't find any fixed links between Marylebone and Canary Wharf or between Canary Wharf and Abbey Wood either. So it's difficult to know how a delay repay claim relating to this part of the journey would be assessed? As far as I know I'm allowed to make a cross-London transfer between Marylebone and Abbey Wood using any reasonable route?

I think I will probably make life easier for GTR by simply giving the details of my intended journey between Abbey Wood and Slade Green and providing no further details. I would have been allowed to break my journey at Abbey Wood, so as far as I can see if I tell them I intended to take their train, which was cancelled, which I did, then they should pay out.

What was your planned itinerary (including breaks) and what were your actual timings?

You can only claim against a delay to a valid itinerary; if you make connections quicker than the official minimum interchange times, any delay couldn't be measured against the accelerated timings.

You would either use a fixed link to Farringdon or Paddington; the exact one would depend on which is the quickest itinerary at the chosen travel time.

You can use www.fastjp.com to generate a valid itinerary.

 

[Benjwri]

What was your planned itinerary (including breaks) and what were your actual timings?

You can only claim against a delay to a valid itinerary; if you make connections quicker than the official minimum interchange times, any delay couldn't be measured against the accelerated timings.

You would either use a fixed link to Farringdon or Paddington; the exact one would depend on which is the quickest itinerary at the chosen travel time.

You can use www.fastjp.com to generate a valid itinerary.

I think in this case their question is that they broke the cross London portion of their journey. With an hours break at Canary Wharf they will most definitely have met the minimum connection time.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see anything to prevent such a claim, but I think the value of the time spent dealing with the claim (by both parties) will far exceed the value of the claim, in all honesty.

 

[redreni]

I think in this case their question is that they broke the cross London portion of their journey. With an hours break at Canary Wharf they will most definitely have met the minimum connection time.

Yes, that's my point.

I don't see anything to prevent such a claim, but I think the value of the time spent dealing with the claim (by both parties) will far exceed the value of the claim, in all honesty.

Oh, undoubtedly, but I'd like to understand what the rules are regarding cross-London transfers where no fixed link is specified.

You can only claim against a delay to a valid itinerary; if you make connections quicker than the official minimum interchange times, any delay couldn't be measured against the accelerated timings.

You would either use a fixed link to Farringdon or Paddington; the exact one would depend on which is the quickest itinerary at the chosen travel time.

You can use www.fastjp.com to generate a valid itinerary.

Thanks for this info. I'll see what itineraries I can generate.

The main thing is I departed Oxford at 13:45, arrived at Marylebone at 18:52 and am claiming against a train that was due to depart Abbey Wood at 20:45, so there should be no reason for anybody to think I'd crossed London on accelerated connections below the MCTs. It's just if I say I departed Oxford at 13:45 and was subsequently delayed by their cancellation of the 20:45 from Abbey Wood then that obviously requires further explanation since I could, if I wished, have been home long before 20:45. I can explain the break at High Wycombe easily enough, I just don't know if "I decided to take an hour and 45 minutes to get from Marylebone to Abbey Wood" is considered legitimate?

From what I can understand, the lack of a fixed link Marylebone to either Abbey Wood or Canary Wharf means a valid itinerary must be based on a route other than the one I took, which is awkward as I don't really want to claim based on something I didn't do or intend to do. I take it there's no question that it is valid to make a cross-London transfer from Marylebone to Abbey Wood via Baker Street and Canary Wharf - it's just not provided for in the data?

Maybe the pragmatic solution is to create an itinerary based on a break of journey at Marylebone rather than at Canary Wharf, which puts me on the Elizabeth Line train on which I actually arrived at Abbey Wood (albeit picking up that train at Paddington rather than at Canary Wharf), and claim against that?

 

[yorkie]

Maybe the pragmatic solution is to create an itinerary based on a break of journey at Marylebone rather than at Canary Wharf, which puts me on the Elizabeth Line train on which I actually arrived at Abbey Wood (albeit picking up that train at Paddington rather than at Canary Wharf), and claim against that?

Maybe; a fundamental problem is that none of this is really defined.

Any attempt to comprehensively define rules which cover all edge cases would probably be fraught with difficulty.

 

[redreni]

Maybe; a fundamental problem is that none of this is really defined.

Any attempt to comprehensively define rules which cover all edge cases would probably be fraught with difficulty.

FastJP gives "no itineraries found" on any query departing Oxford on the date and time when I departed Oxford and going via High Wycombe. And that's even before I start trying to specify any layovers or additional waypoints.

It does give me a suitable itinerary for next Saturday which does not differ materially from what I actually did: the point is I arrived at Abbey Wood at 20:41, Thameslink's 20:47 should have got me to my destination at 20:53 but they cancelled it as a result of which I arrived at Slade Green 16 minutes late at 21.09.

Should I gather the error message if you ask FastJP to generate an itinerary retrospectively is a feature rather than a bug?

 

[yorkie]

Currently, yes. However if you had already done a search on or before the date of travel, the link to the search id would still work.

There is no defined formula to calculate the value of the relevant portion for a partial segment of the journey.

Delay repay forms aren't really set up for this.

I think for this sort of query, a concise email to customer services, stating the intended itinerary, actual itinerary, detail of ticket(s) held and what you are claiming would be the best way forward.

 

[Vexed]

I doubt the system is smart enough to check for BoJ validity, and therefore I don't think there will be an issue with a claim from Canary Wharf especially it is on National Rail and therefore in Darwin and TRUST (as opposed to a delay on a "proper" Underground line). This would also be fully truthful in case an explanation to customer services is required.

I've submitted successfull Delay Repay claims to GTR with break of journey before by only including the relevant part of the whole journey, for example I uploaded a St Albans - Brighton ticket but only added the times for St Pancras - Brighton (after a BoJ in London for lunch). Though this is less complicated than including EL. So I see no need to supply your whole journey.

It was approved very quick (so I assume processed by a computer) with compensation based on the full ticket price.

 

[redreni]

Currently, yes. However if you had already done a search on or before the date of travel, the link to the search id would still work.

Thanks for the information.

There is no defined formula to calculate the value of the relevant portion for a partial segment of the journey.

Delay repay forms aren't really set up for this.

I think for this sort of query, a concise email to customer services, stating the intended itinerary, actual itinerary, detail of ticket(s) held and what you are claiming would be the best way forward.

Yes, I'll do that. I wasn't expecting their automated claims processing system to be able to do this.

I doubt the system is smart enough to check for BoJ validity, and therefore I don't think there will be an issue with a claim from Canary Wharf especially it is on National Rail and therefore in Darwin and TRUST (as opposed to a delay on a "proper" Underground line). This would also be fully truthful in case an explanation to customer services is required.

Yeah, I just have a bad feeling about that, though. Maybe they'd just take my word for it that I took the 20.28 from Canary Wharf, which would be fine, but on the other hand maybe it would lead to a load of questions about which train I'd used to connect with that train at Canary Wharf as they'd want to check the MCT for that connection, which would be a problem as there's no data saying how much time is required to make that particular connection.

I've submitted successfull Delay Repay claims to GTR with break of journey before by only including the relevant part of the whole journey, for example I uploaded a St Albans - Brighton ticket but only added the times for St Pancras - Brighton (after a BoJ in London for lunch). Though this is less complicated than including EL. So I see no need to supply your whole journey.

It was approved very quick (so I assume processed by a computer) with compensation based on the full ticket price.

In which case maybe my original thought of just telling them about the segment from Abbey Wood to Slade Green is my best bet initially (intended train dep. 20:47 arr. 20:53, cancelled, took next train dep. 20:59 arr. 21:09). Keeps it simple. I could only tell them about the rest of my itinerary if they ask.

After all, on that ticket I could have started short at Abbey Wood if I wanted to. So what I did before I got to Abbey Wood isn't really any of their business if it's not part of my claim. If they want to check that I didn't breach any MCTs then I'll provide the itinerary in the screenshot above with a footnote explaining I took a different route across London, but arrived at Abbey Wood on the specified Elizabeth Line train as per the itinerary.

Thanks both for the advice!

 

[Watershed]

Yeah, I just have a bad feeling about that, though. Maybe they'd just take my word for it that I took the 20.28 from Canary Wharf, which would be fine, but on the other hand maybe it would lead to a load of questions about which train I'd used to connect with that train at Canary Wharf as they'd want to check the MCT for that connection, which would be a problem as there's no data saying how much time is required to make that particular connection.

I think you're possibly overthinking the question of the MCT to Canary Wharf. You don't necessarily have to use one singular fixed link when transferring between stations. It'd be perfectly acceptable to say you relied on the MCT based on the fixed Tube link from Marylebone to Paddington and then the timetabled Elizabeth line service from there .

 

[yorkie]

I think you're possibly overthinking the question of the MCT to Canary Wharf. You don't necessarily have to use one singular fixed link when transferring between stations. It'd be perfectly acceptable to say you relied on the MCT based on the fixed Tube link from Marylebone to Paddington and then the timetabled Elizabeth line service from there .

Indeed; you just can't combine consecutive fixed links.

 

[redreni]

I think you're possibly overthinking the question of the MCT to Canary Wharf. You don't necessarily have to use one singular fixed link when transferring between stations. It'd be perfectly acceptable to say you relied on the MCT based on the fixed Tube link from Marylebone to Paddington and then the timetabled Elizabeth line service from there .

Indeed; you just can't combine consecutive fixed links.

Well, this is where TfL's belief that you can't break your journey on the Elizabeth Line core rears it's head.

FastJP will give me an itinerary going from Oxford to Slade Green via High Wycombe, Marylebone, Paddington and Canary Wharf, and it will give me a change of trains (for a break of journey) with 42 extra minutes at Canary Wharf, but it tells me to resume my journey after that break of journey by taking 'Metro' (which is an interesting description of the DLR) to Greenwich and thence to Slade Green. If I specify something to try to force it to put me back on the Elizabeth Line from Canary Wharf to Abbey Wood (such as 'pass Custom House EL' or 'avoid Greenwich') it doesn't find any itineraries.

I didn't use the Elizabeth Line to reach Canary Wharf partly because I suspected there may be friction at the barrier if I tried to exit there, and further friction if I later tried to resume (particularly if it was the same person on duty). Experience told me it would likely create less friction to do a transfer from the Jubilee to the Elizabeth Line and simply take my time over it. It would appear that the belief of the Elizabeth Line gateline staff that you can't break and then resume at Canary Wharf EL on a Maltese Cross ticket is backed up by the fact you can't seem to generate an itinerary for that. Unless anyone can suggest a way to get this itinerary to show the break of journey at Canary Wharf? The routing between Marylebone and Canary Wharf is not important, but the routing after Canary Wharf needs to be on the 20:28 Elizabeth Line train to Abbey Wood then the 20:47 Thameslink train to Slade Green.

 

[Watershed]

Well, this is where TfL's belief that you can't break your journey on the Elizabeth Line core rears it's head.

FastJP will give me an itinerary going from Oxford to Slade Green via High Wycombe, Marylebone, Paddington and Canary Wharf, and it will give me a change of trains (for a break of journey) with 42 extra minutes at Canary Wharf, but it tells me to resume my journey after that break of journey by taking 'Metro' (which is an interesting description of the DLR) to Greenwich and thence to Slade Green. If I specify something to try to force it to put me back on the Elizabeth Line from Canary Wharf to Abbey Wood (such as 'pass Custom House EL' or 'avoid Greenwich') it doesn't find any itineraries.

I didn't use the Elizabeth Line to reach Canary Wharf partly because I suspected there may be friction at the barrier if I tried to exit there, and further friction if I later tried to resume (particularly if it was the same person on duty). Experience told me it would likely create less friction to do a transfer from the Jubilee to the Elizabeth Line and simply take my time over it. It would appear that the belief of the Elizabeth Line gateline staff that you can't break and then resume at Canary Wharf EL on a Maltese Cross ticket is backed up by the fact you can't seem to generate an itinerary for that. Unless anyone can suggest a way to get this itinerary to show the break of journey at Canary Wharf? The routing between Marylebone and Canary Wharf is not important, but the routing after Canary Wharf needs to be on the 20:28 Elizabeth Line train to Abbey Wood then the 20:47 Thameslink train to Slade Green.

I suspect this is just a limitation in the journey planner being unable to handle so many consecutive 'via'/'call at'/'change at' points. TfL's policy is neither here nor there for the purposes of your Delay Repay claim, as it has no basis in the NRCoT. As I say, I would not overcomplicate things - just claim based on your travel from Canary Wharf, or from Abbey Wood.

 

[redreni]

I suspect this is just a limitation in the journey planner being unable to handle so many consecutive 'via'/'call at'/'change at' points. TfL's policy is neither here nor there for the purposes of your Delay Repay claim, as it has no basis in the NRCoT. As I say, I would not overcomplicate things - just claim based on your travel from Canary Wharf, or from Abbey Wood.

Yes, that's what I've done. Thanks again for the advice!

The errors with the Canary Wharf waypoint seem to occur even on quite simple itineraries for some reason.

 

[redreni]

UPDATE: Thameslink paid out 12.5% of the cost of the return ticket at the first time of asking, just as they should.

I submitted the delay repay claim via customer services, attaching the itinerary as per #7 above (but with a footnote clarifying that my actual route after Marylebone was LU to Canary Wharf then picking up the Elizabeth Line there, arriving at Abbey Wood on the service and at the time shown, just to make sure I couldn't possibly be accused of being less than forthcoming).

 

[lkpridgeon]

Yes, that's what I've done. Thanks again for the advice!

The errors with the Canary Wharf waypoint seem to occur even on quite simple itineraries for some reason.

I'll have a look into this, do you have a link from when you originally performed the search?