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How does GWR PAYG work with multiple day return fares?

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Kalmar

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I recently made a day return trip Cheltenham Spa to Swindon, using GWR PAYG on the line via Stroud (which was recently added to the Bristol PAYG network). I was expecting to be charged £7.85 - the price of an off-peak day return via Stroud (with a railcard, on a weekend). But in fact I got charged £14.90, which is the price of an off-peak day return via any route.

Does the PAYG card not work with route-specific fares? I assumed it would know that I travelled via Stroud based on the times tapping in/out, since there wasn't time to go via Bristol.

Anyone have any idea how it works? Thanks
 
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Kalmar

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Thanks. I sent a message to customer services asking about this charge, and this is what they said:

This has been charged as a day rate, rather than a pre-booked journey, which would be £7.75 roughly.
To travel on a pre-booked rate, you would need to book your ticket, and then add it to your Smartcard, rather than paying with pay as you go.

I'm not quite sure what they mean by a pre-booked rate. Maybe it means that you always get charged the "any route" fare when using PAYG, but then it makes it pointless using PAYG on this route.
 

hkstudent

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Thanks. I sent a message to customer services asking about this charge, and this is what they said:



I'm not quite sure what they mean by a pre-booked rate. Maybe it means that you always get charged the "any route" fare when using PAYG, but then it makes it pointless using PAYG on this route.
Pre-book almost means “Advance” fares.
The via stroud is a off peak fares which is a walk-up fare which is also a on the day fare. Worth getting to the CS again, stressing the via Stroud is also a on the day fare and you get overcharged.
 

father_jack

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"More that one available route" problems came up in conversation when the smartcard idea was mooted years ago. The "trial" was on the Severn Beach line where the problem wouldn't exist. Really you need an "intermediate" tap system to prove which route you travelled, so there's a reliance on the guard checking tickets because the headcode of the train will be input on their checking equipment which will "route" the train correctly.

Go back to GWR customer relations and make sure you get your refund.
 

Haywain

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so there's a reliance on the guard checking tickets because the headcode of the train will be input on their checking equipment which will "route" the train correctly.
I don’t think on train checks play any part in calculating fares for PAYG, they simply confirm that the card is touched in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I assumed it would know that I travelled via Stroud based on the times tapping in/out, since there wasn't time to go via Bristol.
There’s a bit of a tricky problem for GWR to solve here, and you have been overcharged, but journey time alone should not be used for charging - what happens if your train is delayed or you get to Cheltenham early and have a significant wait for train.
 

etr221

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There’s a bit of a tricky problem for GWR to solve here, and you have been overcharged, but journey time alone should not be used for charging - what happens if your train is delayed or you get to Cheltenham early and have a significant wait for train.
Quite.

The paradigm for PAYG is that you touch in at the start of your journey, and effectively promise to pay for it, and at the end of your journey you touch out, at which point the system works out the journey you made, the fare due and charges you (however this is done). But only at the end is the journey defined, as to start, finish and route. Unless an intermediate touch is made, then it just has to make an assumption as to the route you took, and so the fare due.

Two things following from this:
(i) for the Cheltenham-Swindon journey in question, noting GWR's statement that you will be charged the best fare, unless they can from timetabling, train running data and tap times reliably determine which route you took (which is non-trivial, especially as a quick look shows trains via the different rotes at similar times), they should always be assuming you travelled via Stroud, and charging on that basis.
And (ii) passengers sometimes make illogical choices of journey, both as to start and finish (the London Catford-Catford Bridge springs to mind), and as to route - is CHM-SWI via Bristol and Bath sensible? or what about Cheltenham to Yate via Swindon and Bath? With a pre-bought ticket system, the railway can not sell tickets for such journeys, but with PAYG it doesn't have that option... So what should the system do when someone makes such journeys? Which needs to be thought about at system specification and design time - but perhaps there was an assumption that people would just make 'expected' journeys. As someone said, it is hard to make things foolproof, because fools are so ingenious...
 

Kalmar

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Just to update on this - I noticed a refund of £7.05 on my credit card this morning from GWR, and when I look at my PAYG journey history it now shows a charge of £7.85 and route via Stroud.

So it seems they have fixed up the fare correctly, but I'm not sure whether this was a result of me contacting customer services, or an automated back office process which would have run anyway. I've never received an email from GWR saying they were going to change this.

Curiously, the journey history now correctly shows the times I tapped in/out, which wasn't there before. I have seen these sorts of delays when travelling to small stations like Stapleton Rd (and you tap a card reader on a post), but not when going through a main station and you have to tap out when going through a gate. It's always worked reliably in those cases.

It makes me a little reluctant to use the PAYG card regularly since it seems unreliable in terms of fare charged, missing taps etc. Which is a shame, because it would be very useful if it worked reliably.
 
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