The 2024 US presidential election.

[Cowley]

Well this looked pretty terrible for the Democrats:

Democrats backed into a corner over Biden's performance

Prominent voices in the Democratic Party are openly criticising the president's performance as the campaign focuses on Trump's "lies."

www.bbc.co.uk

The campaign’s top surrogates wound up pinned at one end of the debate spin room by a mob of reporters on Thursday night, fielding questions about ousting 81-year-old Mr Biden at the top of the ticket and whether tonight's performance fuelled more concerns about his fitness for office.

California Governor Gavin Newsom was asked whether the Democratic Party should replace the president as its candidate.

The 56-year-old Democrat responded that he was “old fashioned” and cared more about the “substance and facts” discussed rather than a frenzy over Mr Biden’s energy.

It was not the conversation that Democrats hoped to have after the debate. But Mr Biden’s subdued performance during the 90-minute event, during which he sometimes stumbled through answers and spoke with a cold-induced rasp, sent Democrats into an immediate panic as reporters pressed on how his campaign would recover.

 

[Buzby]

Between the two, the terms ‘rock’ and a ‘hard place’ are very evident. Of course here we have the same problem (but it isn’t age related).

 

[brad465]

The question that needs to be asked is not so much why these two very old candidates are standing, it's why are so many donors funding them over younger prospects? Biden and Trump's ages obviously get most attention because they're vying for the top job, while Biden is the oldest of the 2. But a look across Congress and that's full of them too. Of course in an ideal world such funding behaviour would not be permitted in politics at all, but that's another matter entirely.

 

[RichJF]

One deluded, narcissist out for himself vs someone who's unaware of the room he's standing in & might even die in office. Whoever wins, that country is on a rapid descent into failure.

The reason they're both standing is because the USA is a gerontocracy.

 

[gg1]

I watched the debate live in the early hours of yesterday morning, bit of a car crash for the Democrats with Biden repeatedly stumbling over his words (e.g. at one point mixing up millions, billions and trillions), on one occasion it was that bad I genuinely couldn't tell what he was trying to say. Combined with Trump toning down his usual Trumpishness, any undecided voters watching that would probably now be leaning a little more towards Trump.

 

[DarloRich]

Should Biden step down? They are both old fella's but Biden does look a bit more doddery than the demented Trump. Biden was worse than I imagined. For the first time I did actually think he was losing it. He was confused and got very muddled, very easily. His voice was stumbling and quite weak. He looked quite frail. it was like seeing your grandfather going down hill fast. He just didn't seem to have a grasp on the facts to rebut the nonsense Trump pumped out and didn't seem to have anything in locker beyond memorised strap lines.

Trump didn't even have to do anything to land his points. He let the audience see that Biden was in trouble. Trump even said at one point: I don't understand what he said there and I don't think he does either.

Is there a realistic alternative to Biden in the Democratic party? Surely there is no way back from that kind of performance. Trump and his campaign are going to run some of those clips over and over again and basically say: how can you trust that man with 4 more years?

 

[Busaholic]

The question that needs to be asked is not so much why these two very old candidates are standing, it's why are so many donors funding them over younger prospects? Biden and Trump's ages obviously get most attention because they're vying for the top job, while Biden is the oldest of the 2. But a look across Congress and that's full of them too. Of course in an ideal world such funding behaviour would not be permitted in politics at all, but that's another matter entirely.

I think the real question to be asked is why Biden's people agreed to this in the first place. It was almost a cast-iron cert that he'd start to flounder under the questioning, and the hostile presence of Trump, and once that started it would only get worse. Now, if he pulls out of further 'debates' it will only prise open the can of worms even further, but to subject him to more would be 'cruel and unusual punishment.' The Democrats have to urgently find another candidate and, unfortunately, no way does Harris fit the bill.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the real question to be asked is why Biden's people agreed to this in the first place. It was almost a cast-iron cert that he'd start to flounder under the questioning, and the hostile presence of Trump, and once that started it would only get worse. Now, if he pulls out of further 'debates' it will only prise open the can of worms even further, but to subject him to more would be 'cruel and unusual punishment.' The Democrats have to urgently find another candidate and, unfortunately, no way does Harris fit the bill.

I do wonder if the Democrats had it in mind that this might happen when they agreed the date and rules for the debate - they do frequently see him up close after all. If it's going to convince people that Biden is unfit to run again, then the least bad option is that it happens now, with a few weeks to scramble other candidates into place before the convention and some time after that for any replacement to put themself in front of the voters.

Ironically I wouldn't have much concern about what Biden would do if elected. He would have good advisers round him, he would probably still act by consensus and if he didn't they would remove him in the interests of the country, as permitted by the constitution. The big risk is that this situation leads to Trump being elected instead.

 

[nw1]

One deluded, narcissist out for himself vs someone who's unaware of the room he's standing in & might even die in office. Whoever wins, that country is on a rapid descent into failure.

The reason they're both standing is because the USA is a gerontocracy.

Except if Biden is elected and is unfit for office, he can be quickly replaced.

Get Trump into office and you're stuck with him for another four years. He will resist any attempt to remove him - and I suspect he could use unorthodox methods in doing so.

In terms of this situation: if the Dems can replace Biden with someone else sharper and more able, they would probably easily win. So perhaps it's best they do this. Not sure what Newsom is like but presumably Californians like him.

Just hope the court hands Trump jail time in a couple of weeks.

 

[edwin_m]

Except if Biden is elected and is unfit for office, he can be quickly replaced.

Get Trump into office and you're stuck with him for another four years. He will resist any attempt to remove him - and I suspect he could use unorthodox methods in doing so.

In terms of this situation: if the Dems can replace Biden with someone else sharper and more able, they would probably easily win. So perhaps it's best they do this. Not sure what Newsom is like but presumably Californians like him.

Just hope the court hands Trump jail time in a couple of weeks.

Apparently Newsom pledged to serve as California Governor for a full 4-year term in 2022, so he'd have to break that promise. Could maybe pull it off due to citing unforeseen circumstances and a California electorate is probably more forgiving than elsewhere.

From what I read jail time is unlikely for what Trump has been convicted of, which in turn means if he ends up behind bars that will be another reason his supporters feel he has been unfairly persecuted. Of the charges Trump has been accused of, the Stormy Daniels ones are the most of a stretch legally, but unfortunately his lawyers have most likely pushed all the others beyond polling day.

 

[MP33]

On C-SPAN today they reported that senior Democrats were meeting to discuss the possibility of replacing Biden. It is not until the National Convention that the nomination is confirmed. Any member can put themselves forward at the Convention. In 1976, Ronald Reagan did this, as he felt that Gerald Ford being unopposed looked like a Coronation.

 

[Kite159]

Except if Biden is elected and is unfit for office, he can be quickly replaced.

Get Trump into office and you're stuck with him for another four years. He will resist any attempt to remove him - and I suspect he could use unorthodox methods in doing so.

In terms of this situation: if the Dems can replace Biden with someone else sharper and more able, they would probably easily win. So perhaps it's best they do this. Not sure what Newsom is like but presumably Californians like him.

Just hope the court hands Trump jail time in a couple of weeks.

And he is the sort of person who will probably try and change the US rule which limits someone to 8 years as president.

The US are stuck between a rock and a hard place, voting for someone whom ought to have retired by now and Trump. What they need is someone younger, a bit like Obama in 2004.

 

[jfollows]

Between the two, the terms ‘rock’ and a ‘hard place’ are very evident. Of course here we have the same problem (but it isn’t age related).

I find it incomprehensible that in an amazing country the only choice for political leader is between two old fools. Where is the new Obama? Or JF Kennedy? Or an inspirational younger Reagan?

 

[Bevan Price]

Age itself is not always a problem - it varies from person to person. I have known people who are mentally fit and competent in their 90s, but others in their 60s or less should not be allowed to do anything requiring mental ability.

But Mr Biden needs to be persuaded to step down or the good of his country. A Trump victory would be a potential disaster for the world.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Kudos to CNN moderators- I think overall they were fair.

 

[brad465]

Jimmy Carter is 99 and has been receiving hospice care since last year. This makes him a frontrunner to run for election if Biden steps down.

 

[AlterEgo]

A complete car crash and an embarrassment to the United States.

A new low.

 

[JamesT]

And he is the sort of person who will probably try and change the US rule which limits someone to 8 years as president.

The term limit was put in as a constitutional amendment. Changing that requires 2/3rds votes in both houses plus 3/4s of the states to ratify it. The US isn’t Russia, it’s far too split for anything like that to go through, much as Trump’s supporters might dream of it.

 

[nlogax]

Fair to say it's too late to get a new Democratic in to replace Biden, and he wouldn't step back anyway. November is going to be horrendous.

 

[Gloster]

As I said elsewhere, just about the only thing that would save the Democrats is if some Trump-loving or similar nutter attacks Biden and injures him, even if only mildly. Biden can then make a dignified withdrawal citing the injuries and a new candidate can be put up. (I am not suggesting this.)

Otherwise we are reliant on Trump losing things so completely that a significant part of his support fades away. However, based on what he has got away with so far, that is a bit far-fetched.

 

[wilbers]

Last night was a game changer. And the change that now has to come is to produce another game changer, which is a new Democratic candidate." In an emergency episode of The Rest Is Politics, Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell follow on from Katty Kay and Anthony Scaramucci's reaction to Joe Biden's "horrific" performance in CNN's presidential debate against Donald Trump.

Rory Stewart [used to be my local MP] was saying for months that there was a possibility that the next US president would be neither Trump or Biden, and only after Trump's court case seemed to be thinking it was destined to be one or the other. That debate changes things, and there is still time for someone other than Biden to be the Democratic candidate (with suggestions for who in that video). Possibly the one person that could persuade Biden to step aside is Obama, and we don't know what his opinion on it is.

 

[Busaholic]

The term limit was put in as a constitutional amendment. Changing that requires 2/3rds votes in both houses plus 3/4s of the states to ratify it. The US isn’t Russia, it’s far too split for anything like that to go through, much as Trump’s supporters might dream of it.

You really think Trump would let that inconvenience stand in his way? With his appointed stooges in the Supreme Court, he'd get it changed pronto. By the way, he'd be older than Biden currently is by that time, so might be equally deficient in the brain and memory department if still alive and not incarcerated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2024 ==

Rory Stewart [used to be my local MP] was saying for months that there was a possibility that the next US president would be neither Trump or Biden, and only after Trump's court case seemed to be thinking it was destined to be one or the other. That debate changes things, and there is still time for someone other than Biden to be the Democratic candidate (with suggestions for who in that video). Possibly the one person that could persuade Biden to step aside is Obama, and we don't know what his opinion on it is.

Obama is playing down Biden's problems at the moment.

 

[bavvo]

You really think Trump would let that inconvenience stand in his way? With his appointed stooges in the Supreme Court, he'd get it changed pronto. By the way, he'd be older than Biden currently is by that time, so might be equally deficient in the brain and memory department if still alive and not incarcerated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2024 ==

That could come back to bite them anyway, if Trump can run for a third term, then so can Obama, and Obama would beat him hands down.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And he is the sort of person who will probably try and change the US rule which limits someone to 8 years as president.

No he will not.

The term limit was put in as a constitutional amendment. Changing that requires 2/3rds votes in both houses plus 3/4s of the states to ratify it. The US isn’t Russia, it’s far too split for anything like that to go through, much as Trump’s supporters might dream of it.

Is the correct answer.

You really think Trump would let that inconvenience stand in his way? With his appointed stooges in the Supreme Court, he'd get it changed pronto.

No they will not. The SCOTUS is not that stupid and too many good people on it.

That could come back to bite them anyway, if Trump can run for a third term, then so can Obama, and Obama would beat him hands down.

Precisely.

 

[renegademaster]

You really think Trump would let that inconvenience stand in his way? With his appointed stooges in the Supreme Court, he'd get it changed pronto. By the way, he'd be older than Biden currently is by that time, so might be equally deficient in the brain and memory department if still alive and not incarcerated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2024 ==


Obama is playing down Biden's problems at the moment.

The "stooges" on the supreme Court all though clearly right wing threw out all his claims that it was rigged against him, they aren't unconditional trump supporters

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The "stooges" on the supreme Court all though clearly right wing threw out all his claims that it was rigged against him, they aren't unconditional trump supporters

Again, partially correct. The court currently stands at 6:3 conservatives to progressives. They are NOT stooges. That is insulting.

 

[renegademaster]

Again, partially correct. The court currently stands at 6:3 conservatives to progressives. They are NOT stooges. That is insulting.

None of those Conservative 6 voted to entertain his claims about the election

 

[nw1]

Fair to say it's too late to get a new Democratic in to replace Biden, and he wouldn't step back anyway. November is going to be horrendous.

Is it too late though?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

None of those Conservative 6 voted to entertain his claims about the election

Correct.

 

[Ediswan]

Is it too late though?

No. There is a lengthy explanation here:
https://abcnews.go.com/538/biden-trump-suddenly-leaves-2024-race/story?id=106136493

Replacing a party nominee or president-elect would be messy under any circumstances, but exactly how messy depends on when the candidate drops out. At some points in the calendar, there would be a clear path forward; at others, the country would be facing an unprecedented situation — although experts say the parties have contingency plans for most such scenarios.