Thoughts/advice on buying electric vehicles.

[Sun Chariot]

Does any forum reader use a "D segment" sized EV that can comfortably manage a 430 range and wiith the electrics on (e.g. for dark + wet + cold driving)?
I have a regular work trip: c.430 miles from the Hants / East Sussex coast to Nottingham and back; and generally a lack of charging provision whilst at Nottingham. I've yet to find an EV that will guarantee that size of "out 'n' back" range. So I'm still wedded to my 700 mile range fossil burner.

 

[trebor79]

Does any forum reader use a "D segment" sized EV that can comfortably manage a 430 range and wiith the electrics on (e.g. for dark + wet + cold driving)?
I have a regular work trip: c.430 miles from the Hants / East Sussex coast to Nottingham and back; and generally a lack of charging provision whilst at Nottingham. I've yet to find an EV that will guarantee that size of "out 'n' back" range. So I'm still wedded to my 700 mile range fossil burner.

There are many vehicles that would do that with one 15 minute stop. About the same time it takes for you to wander to the services building, have a wazz and wander back having bought a tea or a bottle of water or whatever. You shouldn't really be driving that distance without stopping, TBH.
Oh having the lights, wipers etc on will make zero difference to range.

 

[Sun Chariot]

There are many vehicles that would do that with one 15 minute stop. About the same time it takes for you to wander to the services building, have a wazz and wander back having bought a tea or a bottle of water or whatever. You shouldn't really be driving that distance without stopping, TBH.
Oh having the lights, wipers etc on will make zero difference to range.

I'd love to hear examples from readers. I've asked the same question of dealers - and I've always had the same awkward silence and then "errrr, no, it won't offer that range if you have lights, climate control, heated seats and multimedia all on".

My sister-in-law's Volvo XC60 full EV - less than 1 year old - haemorrhages its range if she has those all in use. It loses range when driving in the wind, too. And a £70k car, at that.

I normally do the Nottingham trips non stop. I did Dundee to the South Coast once, with a stop on M6 at the north end of the Lune Gorge; that was quite a red-eye trip!

 

[Minilad]

I'd love to hear examples from readers. I've asked the same question of dealers - and I've always had the same awkward silence and then "errrr, no, it won't offer that range if you have lights, climate control, heated seats and multimedia all on".

My sister-in-law's Volvo XC60 full EV - less than 1 year old - haemorrhages its range if she has those all in use. It loses range when driving in the wind, too. And a £70k car, at that.

I normally do the Nottingham trips non stop. I did Dundee to the South Coast once, with a stop on M6 at Lune Gorge; that was quite a red-eye trip!

No EV loses range by having lights, multimedia, wipers, heated seats switched on. For one simple reason, they don't take their power from the traction battery. The heater is different and you will lose range by having it on. In my experience you will lose around 5-10 miles so not exactly a massive issue. This issue can be solved easy enough though by buying a vehicle fitted with a heat pump. Having the heating on will have absolutely no effect on range then. As for driving in wind I have never noticed a massive difference in this situation and of course driving against a headwind in an ICE car would mean your MPG goes down too. Thats just physics.

As for your Sister in Law's Volvo XC60. Volvo do not make a EV only XC60 only a hybrid or ICE. The most expensive Volvo EV I could find currently on sale is the £55K EX40 so I'm not really sure what vehicle you have in mind here.

 

[Sun Chariot]

No EV loses range by having lights, multimedia, wipers, heated seats switched on. For one simple reason, they don't take their power from the traction battery. The heater is different and you will lose range by having it on. In my experience you will lose around 5-10 miles so not exactly a massive issue. This issue can be solved easy enough though by buying a vehicle fitted with a heat pump. Having the heating on will have absolutely no effect on range then. As for driving in wind I have never noticed a massive difference in this situation and of course driving against a headwind in an ICE car would mean your MPG goes down too. Thats just physics.

As for your Sister in Law's Volvo XC60. Volvo do not make a EV only XC60 only a hybrid or ICE. The most expensive Volvo EV I could find currently on sale is the £55K EX40 so I'm not really sure what vehicle you have in mind here.

Thanks for the tip re: a heat pump. I'll target that on my EV search.

Maybe her Volvo has a build-flaw? It's the second one she took - the first one had several faults rendering it unusable for her commute (Bedford - Leeds), so it had to be returned.

The wind effect might seem greater to her, because her car has quite a large cross-section hitting the air. I'll check what model she has; it's XC60-sized and it's definitely electric only.

 

[JamesT]

No EV loses range by having lights, multimedia, wipers, heated seats switched on. For one simple reason, they don't take their power from the traction battery. The heater is different and you will lose range by having it on. In my experience you will lose around 5-10 miles so not exactly a massive issue. This issue can be solved easy enough though by buying a vehicle fitted with a heat pump. Having the heating on will have absolutely no effect on range then. As for driving in wind I have never noticed a massive difference in this situation and of course driving against a headwind in an ICE car would mean your MPG goes down too. Thats just physics.

The lights etc. might not be directly wired into the traction battery, but the power for them does ultimately have to come from that battery. What other power source is there in an EV?

 

[Minilad]

The lights etc. might not be directly wired into the traction battery, but the power for them does ultimately have to come from that battery. What other power source is there in an EV?

Well yes, but the 12v battery is generally recharged when the EV is plugged in so hardly takes any power from the traction battery while the car is being driven except for a nominal "trickle charge" that would barely register on the range

 

[Harpers Tate]

12v power all ultimately comes from the HT power unit / the main battery. The 12v battery is maintained by a converter that does the same job as the alternator and its belt in an ICE, and the effect on range will be similar - all other things equal. That said, the move towards LED lighting (in any car, but fairly typical of EVs) makes power use for them much lower. And (as Minilad says) your 12v will always be full when you set out, having been topped up whilst plugged in. The biggest loss is going to be in heating which in an ICE is otherwise wasted, but in an EV has to be created electrically. That can be minimised/avoided in marginal conditions by using heated seats rather than cabin heat; it's way more efficient.

To return to the original question, though; I'd describe the "requirement" (430 miles without any top up) as an unnecessary condition. It requires a very slight change of mindset; to account for a stop or other charging opportunity en route or at destination. Any EV will go for 430 miles, of course, given enough charging stops. I'd suggest a "suitable" one for this purpose will do that with one such stop and there are a good few of those about.

Clearly I don't know your circumstances whilst in Nottingham, but there are many many chargers in and around that city. So - I suggest: forget the "I can do it in my ICE so that's what I need" thinking and just accept - a 20-30 minute call somewhere during that journey is not a huge overhead; even less so if it might coincide with a meal or other refreshment/needs stop. Put one such stop in the mix and you have a wide choice of EVs to take you 1 x 250 + 1 x 180 miles.

 

[Buzby]

Having owned a range of EV’s (2007-2019) I’m now back with petrol. Your anticipated driving range takes it well out the comfort zone of most vehicles. Long distance at speed truly hammers the range and when I quantified the places/time I spent recharging mid-journey it all added to the mix. True things got better when my vehicles supported Rapid charging (as opposed to standard and fast) but this brought complications with reliability of the chargepoints - Rapids suffered more downtime, but whilst you could use a nearby fast, it added X3 to your time waiting to reach at least 80%.

The early adopters got various perks like free recharging and parking, which was welcome, but with Road Tax now being added to EV’s by the outgoing Govt, the benefits are being whittled away big time.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thank you @Buzby and @Harpers Tate The sticking points for me to "convert", are:
1)) upfront cash outlay for a decent spec'd "D segment" EV. I don't want a lease / PCP.
2) the additional time (to find a charger and charge), on top of what is already a long day for me each week (3.5-4 hours each way). My trips are close-ish to Toton (but aren't railway related);
My sister in law gave me plenty of stories of "driving on hope" when she's been stood in M1 accident tailbacks, for an hour or more, in her Volvo EV.

 

[Buzby]

Some observations - (1) my last EV (BMW i3) was my first on PCP, and I have to say this fully cushioned me from the collapse of s/h pricing. I paid a fair price for usage without have to worry about how much depreciation was going to punish me when it came time to sell. I still have an EV executive motorbike (a Vectrix) and as this was purchased outright, when the battery had issues I was on my own out of warranty. A replacement battery pack was quoted at £7,000 plus fitting, more than the bike was worth.

(2) There is much more ‘competition’ at Rapid chargers, not just being in a queue to use it, but the costs also vary wildly (depending on the network - Kw charges vary incredibly, even more so than a petrol pumps).

(3) Your anticipated drive gave me the shivers an I would be a basket case by the end of the first week! There are too many variables that can conspire to knock your travel plans askew - it can be very difficult to claw back lost time, especially as you sit looking at the clock and the state of charge (and for good measure, the outside temperature) when it’s cold the battery capacity drops, and it wouldn’t be the first time I forego using the heater as it could take 25 miles off my range meaning I couldn’t make it home to my own charger.

i’m still an EV evangelist, but it isn’t for everyone and this needs to be realised. Returning to petrol in my trusty Toyota, I have done away with advance planning and sitting at a charger playing Solitaire on my phone.

 

[trebor79]

I'd love to hear examples from readers. I've asked the same question of dealers - and I've always had the same awkward silence and then "errrr, no, it won't offer that range if you have lights, climate control, heated seats and multimedia all on".

My sister-in-law's Volvo XC60 full EV - less than 1 year old - haemorrhages its range if she has those all in use. It loses range when driving in the wind, too. And a £70k car, at that.

I normally do the Nottingham trips non stop. I did Dundee to the South Coast once, with a stop on M6 at the north end of the Lune Gorge; that was quite a red-eye trip!

The dealers are talking pish. The current used by that stuff is almost immesurable compared to moving the cars with he exception of heating. But even that will settle down to less than 1kW, whereas driving at 70mph consumes 15-20kWh, so it's still not really significant.

Volvo EVs are not known for their efficiency.

Kia EV6, Hyundai Ionic 5, Ionic 6 would all easily do this with a quick pit stop. Niro weighs to buy different charge as quickly so would need a longer stop. Moving up the price brackets Tesla model X/Y, several offerings from BMW and Mercedes.
Avoid Stellantis group, their current crop of EVs are pretty inefficient. Audi/VW also do some very decent options.

No EV loses range by having lights, multimedia, wipers, heated seats switched on. For one simple reason, they don't take their power from the traction battery.

They absolutely do. Might be on the 12v bus but that battery is charged from traction battery and in any case whenever the vehicle is turned on the 12v bus is supplied directly from the HV battery via a static converter.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @trebor79 The Ioniq 5 has been in my "shortlist" for some time. I can't justify £54k dealer's price for a new one, though.
(That's for the same equipment level as my existing i40 diesel, a dealer demonstrator I bought at 11 months old with sub-3k miles, for £14k).
I do not want to be locked into PCP / lease / finance.

 

[Harpers Tate]

My sister in law gave me plenty of stories of "driving on hope" when she's been stood in M1 accident tailbacks, for an hour or more, in her Volvo EV.

.....in which, unlike an ICE, she will be using no, or next-to-no energy ("fuel") whilst stationary. My heater (heat pump) draws no more than 0.5kW and if already just maintaining a temperature will likely be lower than this as it will be intermittent. If I have, say, 20kWh in my battery, then that would keep me warm for at least 24 hours with 6 kWh remaining - enough for ~25 miles, and enough therefore to get a top up. It's all a matter of changed thinking.

As to cost, in a matter of minutes, I have found an Ioniq 5 with 25k miles for £22k. It may not be precisely to your liking, but it's one of 165 cars listed.

 

[trebor79]

Massive discounts available on Ioniq 5 and 6 if you actually go to the dealers. There are also delivery miles only vehicles way cheaper than list price.
Also finance is often 0% or lower than a savings rate, in which case take the free money.
The fuel savings alone pay for the finance costs in my Tesla, meanwhile I've got money earning 4.8%, a smidge higher than the loan rate.

 

[Sun Chariot]

.....in which, unlike an ICE, she will be using no, or next-to-no energy ("fuel") whilst stationary. My heater (heat pump) draws no more than 0.5kW and if already just maintaining a temperature will likely be lower than this as it will be intermittent.

Interesting point. I wonder what my sister in law is doing, to cause her car's charge to keep dropping whilst she's stuck in motorway "stop-start" gridlock? She's certainly been worried by it.

 

[Noddy]

Thanks @trebor79 The Ioniq 5 has been in my "shortlist" for some time. I can't justify £54k dealer's price for a new one, though.
(That's for the same equipment level as my existing i40 diesel, a dealer demonstrator I bought at 11 months old with sub-3k miles, for £14k).
I do not want to be locked into PCP / lease / finance.

Both the Ioniqs look like great cars (if quite big for UK roads) but the 6 will be a lot more efficient/get you further than the 5 if you are doing lot of motorway miles as you suggest in your opening post. 240 miles for the 5, 305 miles for the 6 according to EV database with the same 74kWh battery, 2WD.

 

[Snow1964]

Both the Ioniqs look like great cars (if quite big for UK roads) but the 6 will be a lot more efficient/get you further than the 5 if you are doing lot of motorway miles as you suggest in your opening post. 240 miles for the 5, 305 miles for the 6 according to EV database with the same 74kWh battery, 2WD.

I am seriously considering their new baby brother, Hyundai Inster (only just launched, on sale 2025), includes some of the Ionic features and expected to cost £22-25k.

OK it's not a long distance grand tourer, more a city car size, but there is normally only 1 or 2 of us in the car, and now our daughter has finished university we are not doing long return trips start/end of term, nowadays we rarely do trips over 150 miles in a day

 

[Sun Chariot]

Both the Ioniqs look like great cars (if quite big for UK roads) but the 6 will be a lot more efficient/get you further than the 5 if you are doing lot of motorway miles as you suggest in your opening post. 240 miles for the 5, 305 miles for the 6 according to EV database with the same 74kWh battery, 2WD.

Thanks @Noddy That's quite a difference; possibly because the 6 is a more 'slippery' shape than the 5?
The 5's styling I do like - a retro Sci-fi look. Really distinctive.
The 6, to me, looks like it was designed by a committee who couldn't agree on anything!

 

[Noddy]

I am seriously considering their new baby brother, Hyundai Inster (only just launched, on sale 2025), includes some of the Ionic features and expected to cost £22-25k.

OK it's not a long distance grand tourer, more a city car size, but there is normally only 1 or 2 of us in the car, and now our daughter has finished university we are not doing long return trips start/end of term, nowadays we rarely do trips over 150 miles in a day

Yeah, the initial reviews for that look great. As you say it’s not a tourer, but as a local or second car should be great.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

Thanks @Noddy That's quite a difference; possibly because the 6 is a more 'slippery' shape than the 5?
The 5's styling I do like - a retro Sci-fi look. Really distinctive.
The 6, to me, looks like it was designed by a committee who couldn't agree on anything!

Yeah, the difference is to do with shape, they’re pretty much identical otherwise. I agree that the 5 is a more coherent design but I don’t think the 6 is bad and I wonder if it may age better. But like everything 5 versus 6 depends on your priorities.

 

[Sun Chariot]

My wife and I are currently watching a Channel 5 programme, "Which is better, petrol or electric?"

We expected a more impartial comparison, such as the total cost of ownership of a C/D Segment vehicle's first five years from new (and where the cars purchased outright) / the total cost and time needed for a 200 miles single trip; and for both vehicles starting off with "half full range" and in varying road & weather conditions.
And a true cost difference of EV charging, for those unable to install an at-home charger (e.g. living in an apartment block).

But no... We are seeing all the usual clichés and stereotypes. Much is being made of the EV having far fewer mechanical parts and of its battery technology becoming cheaper.
In the used-car comparison, no mention is made of (battery) real reliability and range of an EV at 7-8 years old, versus the same age of petrol or diesel.

 

[DelW]

I looked at the summary of that programme and decided I had better ways to spend an hour ...

I do watch some of Channel 5's output, but my experience of their consumer programmes is that they are unscientific, non-rigorous, anecdotal, and feature the opinions of a small number of people whose qualifications aren't evident and who may or may not have axes to grind.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I looked at the summary of that programme and decided I had better ways to spend an hour ...

I do watch some of Channel 5's output, but my experience of their consumer programmes is that they are unscientific, non-rigorous, anecdotal, and feature the opinions of a small number of people whose qualifications aren't evident and who may or may not have axes to grind.

Take a bow! Spot on.

 

[DelW]

Take a bow! Spot on.

I sat through their programme on air fryers and decided at the end that I'd learnt nothing useful - and I hadn't known much beforehand

 

[Buzby]

Irrespective of any findings in the programme, no useful information as to suitability for the end consumer could ever be divined. This relies on a basket of variables that are different in many combinations as to make such a process effectively meaningless. That, and the disappearing incentives and (now) application of Road Tax change the game.

 

[Sun Chariot]

And ironically, @Buzby your post has covered more factually relevant useful points, than the entire Channel 5 programme!

All I learned from it, was two fast cars in a straight line speed test; a motor journo who preferred a phroaaaw engine sound; and other journo types putting luggage in cars / or pottering about central London.

 

[Buzby]

I despair at these shows as they are prone to mislead and misdirect from info that really matters. I’ve had an EV since 2007, right up until 2019, when I converted back to petrol (but still with a NIL Road Tax band) . Even Volvo have just announced a reversal of their ‘EV only’ policy by 2028 (Irrespective of what the UK Gov wants).

EV cost was initially high, but the incentives of free charging and parking in town made it worth a punt. I did have my own driveway, 7Kw fast charger and my own Solar Panels so for years I got paid for using my own electricity. It couldn’t last - and whilst I was sympathetic to those who wanted to be green, if they could not arrange their own charging point, or regularly made journeys over 120 miles (in winter) then an EV is not for them.

Downsides include what happens when your EV battery craters. My motorbike (a Vectrix) needed a replacement pack after 2 years. This would cost £7k plus fitting, the bike was worth just £5k so it didn’t happen. My cars had leased batteries after this experience but the monthly payment in addition to that of the vehicle became a millstone.

For those that bought their EV outright have seen the s/h value tank and been badly burnt. Those with PCP less so as they walk away with no risk. I enjoyed it but after 17 years, the steady whittling away of the benefits is concerning, and the cost of electricity at public charging networks is eye-watering, with many networks holding drivers without their own charging driveway to ransom.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I am still holding off buying one until the technology matures even further and supply points are even more common.

 

[Sun Chariot]

@Buzby many, many thanks for a really informative appraisal; it affirms all of what my wife and I perceived.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Downsides include what happens when your EV battery craters. My motorbike (a Vectrix) needed a replacement pack after 2 years. This would cost £7k plus fitting, the bike was worth just £5k so it didn’t happen. My cars had leased batteries after this experience but the monthly payment in addition to that of the vehicle became a millstone.

That's probably a false equivalence, no different to using domestic electronics (laptop, mobile phone, etc.) behaviour and extrapolating that to an electric car. I massively doubt the bike had any battery condition management onboard. No temperature control, for example. Those things are routinely well engineered in EVs (Nissan Leaf aside) and have a dramatic impact on battery longevity. If that had been a car, at 2 years, the main battery would have had another 6 years to go on its warranty. And no manufacturer is going to either offer a warranty, or build a vehicle down to such a standard, that there is more than a minimal probability there will be an expensive warranty claim. It's reasonable to conclude therefore, that the vast majority will easily outlast their warranty, and there is evidence of exactly that - with some cars (Tesla, I think) still going at 300k miles.