Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[31160]

Does anyone know what happened to the 0530 brum to Holyhead this morning full cancelled most days it manages something, the delay repay for this service must be costing avanti loads

 

[86246]

Does anyone know what happened to the 0530 brum to Holyhead this morning full cancelled most days it manages something, the delay repay for this service must be costing avanti loads

Have seen their cancellations today have generally either been a shortage of train crew or train faults. Tomorrow's 5:30 will terminate at Crewe due to a shortage of train crew. Fortunately I checked in advance instead of expecting the 15:32 from Chester to run today.

 

[Bayum]

Do the 805s ever manage 125 in service? I assume there will be some sections where tilt isn’t needed or there are long straights.

 

[hexagon789]

Do the 805s ever manage 125 in service? I assume there will be some sections where tilt isn’t needed or there are long straights.

There is one bit of MU125/EPS125 on the Birmingham loop, but no MU125 authorised on the WCML proper yet.

 

[mr_jrt]

Apologies if this has been answered previously, had a look and couldn't find anything. Does anybody know the rationale for why the WCML electric variants were numbered as class 807 rather than as a new class 801 subclass? Are they that different? I can kind of see why the class 803s were numbered as they were, having batteries rather than diesel last-mile backups. Is that the primary reason? What does the class 807 use?

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if this has been answered previously, had a look and couldn't find anything. Does anybody know the rationale for why the WCML electric variants were numbered as class 807 rather than as a new class 801 subclass? Are they that different? I can kind of see why the class 803s were numbered as they were, having batteries rather than diesel last-mile backups. Is that the primary reason? What does the class 807 use?

Number of coaches. Literally that is why the chose the class numbers.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Apologies if this has been answered previously, had a look and couldn't find anything. Does anybody know the rationale for why the WCML electric variants were numbered as class 807 rather than as a new class 801 subclass? Are they that different? I can kind of see why the class 803s were numbered as they were, having batteries rather than diesel last-mile backups. Is that the primary reason? What does the class 807 use?

I don't believe the 807 has the single diesel engine that 801s do... although I may be wrong there!

 

[hexagon789]

I don't believe the 807 has the single diesel engine that 801s do... although I may be wrong there!

You are correct, no diesel genset on the 807s. They are basically an 803 without the extra emergency battery life.

 

[Railperf]

Do the 805s ever manage 125 in service? I assume there will be some sections where tilt isn’t needed or there are long straights.

No not yet. The maximum they are allowed is 110mph at present. We are still awaiting Network Rail to authorise a slightly faster speed profile for non-tilt multiple unit trains.

In relation to engine output, the Hitachi engineers aboard an 805 i travelled aboard recently seemed to believe the engines are set at the 940hp setting (the same as TPE). Only LNER are understood to be using the lower power setting.

Getting back to the faster acceleration discussion, what we have to understand is the relation between acceleration over time and acceleration over distance. To state that the acceleration is twice as quick from 0 to whatever does not translate to being twice as quick over a specific distance.
EDIT: Definitley not twice as quick 0-60mph. I make it 45 secs for a Class 805 and 61 secs for a 390!

Let's be clear here, the 800 series seem to be significantly quicker over the 0-30mph stretch but by 60mph the acceleration rates appear to be reasonably equal and then the Pendolino's accelerate harder to 125mph.

How does that relate to acceleration over distance? Both trains reach 125mph between 5 and 6 miles. To the six mile mark from a standing start the 390 will 'only' be appx 20 seconds behind an all electric Class 801, and around 12 seconds slower than the slightly heavier Class 802/805 trains which carry their own diesel engines.

Conmpare that to an HST which is about 90 seconds slower to six miles than a Class 390 and still only doing 105mph at that point, and you get to see why the newer electric trains are in a league of their own.

Then you have to ask yourselves what the timetable planners are doing. Can they / should they realistically tweak the sectional running times from a station start when the outright performance means one train is only 15 to 20 seconds quicker than another during the acceleration to top speed?

The answer is a probably no, because packed platforms, desptach issues, cautionary signals, wet weather all mean that it is rare to be able to leave a platform on time with full power. So all of these issues have to be taken into consideration.

And on top of that you need to consider that only a very small percentage of drivers will have the experience and skill to drive a train to its maximum within the TOC defensive driving rules. And that relies on the train not having any physical performnce issues with the acceleration or braking. I haven't read any quotes citing specific braking behaviour, but i do know a Hitachi driver who clearly tells me that he only uses a maximum set percentage of braking.

From my own data, it is clear to see that modern electric trains offer a more consistent performance when accelerating away from stations.

The data also shows a wider time difference in the last few miles to a station stop. This seems to be due to a number of reasons such as drivers using different braking points, differing levels of brake force and therefore time to come to a stop. On top of that it also depends on how often you'll get a clear approach to the station on green signals.

So even if your train can accelerate to its top speed 10 or 15 seconds faster than another train type, the time gains can be lost if the driver is more cautious on the station approaches.

When HST's were replaced by Class 800 on electric, it was clear the timetable could be speeded up. With Class 805 coming in to replace Voyagers, there was always going to be an increase in journey times. All claims that superior acceleration would offset some of that time loss is absolute wibble in practical terms.

I note the latest Modern Railways reliability figures suggest the 805's are currently less reliable than GWR's struggling fleet - although that will improve. But we are already seeing the diesel generator sets fail. So we wait with interest for the revised speed profile to be introduced and to see how quickly Avanti / Hitachi maintenance staff can get the reliability levels to where they need to be.

So far, the performanxe is disappointing.
The 80 minute Euston to Stafford timing is based on using the improved speed profle and includes 2.5 minutes of performance and recovery time - so a net 77.5 minutes. My best run to date could have been close to 81 minutes flat out, it it hadn't been for losing three mins negotiating cautionary signals through rugby due to a late running train ahead, and losing 40-45 seconds running at 100mph vs 110mph through the upper Trent Valley.

They are nice trains, shame about the current performance and reliability.

 

[Bald Rick]

The drivers clearly enjoy driving them, and the on board crews I’ve spoken to like them.

But that MU profile is much needed !

 

[poffle]

I think the acceleration/speed performance of the 805/807 should be seen in the context of HS2.

These were specified in the context of HS2 providing the high speed connections between Euston/Birmingham/Crewe. The 80x trains were viewed as the future semi fast trains down the legacy WCML fitting in between more commuter and freight trains. ( The primary driver of HS2 was capacity on the southern WCML and providing more capacity for commuter trains into London.)

The design focus was for trains which would have several stops between Crewe and Euston so acceleration was relatively more important than matching Pendolino maximum speed.

Obviously the HS2 politics have changed since the franchise was awarded to Avanti West Coast. ( Strategy is probably non-existent at present, effectively the next government will have to create one.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is one bit of MU125/EPS125 on the Birmingham loop, but no MU125 authorised on the WCML proper yet.

Two sections, (a) Rugby-Coventry and (b) Bushbury-Stafford, both about 10 miles long.
The latter will be used by the early Birmingham-Holyhead service (if it runs, that is).

 

[hexagon789]

Two sections, (a) Rugby-Coventry and (b) Bushbury-Stafford, both about 10 miles long.
The latter will be used by the early Birmingham-Holyhead service (if it runs, that is).

I was ignoring the second because of location but I forgot all about the Birmingham to Holyhead, though Railperf seems to suggest the 805s are being held to a 110mph ceiling even where they could currently exceed that.

 

[Railperf]

I was ignoring the second because of location but I forgot all about the Birmingham to Holyhead, though Railperf seems to suggest the 805s are being held to a 110mph ceiling even where they could currently exceed that

Yes, 110mph is the maximum allowed using the standard PS speed profile. From Rugby to Coventry , they are also seem to be limited 100mph PS, and between Rugeley Trent Valley and Lichfield Trent Valley limited to 100mph instead of 110mph due to bridge resonance issues.
It seems the context here is that Avanti wanted to remove as much diesel running under the wires, and no manufacturer can offer a bi-mode tilting train. Hitachi offer a proven bi-mode that can deliver 125mph on electric and 100mph+ on diesel and that's the only choice Avanti seemingly had.

It's understood that they cannot even buy any more electric only tilting trains as Alstom can't supply one. The Pendolino UK design won't meed current standards as it is a 20 year old design.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Sorry if this has been answered (I've had a look through the thread), is there an unreserved carriage on these?

 

[Railperf]

Sorry if this has been answered (I've had a look through the thread), is there an unreserved carriage on these?

Yes, middle coach

 

[1D54]

07:21 New Street - Euston this morning is 805 009.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes, middle coach

863xxx carriage. Green lights at every seat!

 

[OscarH]

863xxx carriage. Green lights at every seat!

Given the reliability of the reservations system so far, the latter probably applies in every coach on most services

 

[Backroom_boy]

Yes, 110mph is the maximum allowed using the standard PS speed profile. From Rugby to Coventry , they are also seem to be limited 100mph PS, and between Rugeley Trent Valley and Lichfield Trent Valley limited to 100mph instead of 110mph due to bridge resonance issues.
It seems the context here is that Avanti wanted to remove as much diesel running under the wires, and no manufacturer can offer a bi-mode tilting train. Hitachi offer a proven bi-mode that can deliver 125mph on electric and 100mph+ on diesel and that's the only choice Avanti seemingly had.

It's understood that they cannot even buy any more electric only tilting trains as Alstom can't supply one. The Pendolino UK design won't meed current standards as it is a 20 year old design.

Did Avanti really want a tilting train but couldn't get anyone to offer one? I got the impression that tilt is seen as 'too difficult'

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Did Avanti really want a tilting train but couldn't get anyone to offer one? I got the impression that tilt is seen as 'too difficult'

Tilt isn’t offered by any of the train manufactures in UK loading gauge at present, quite simply the ‘shop doesn’t sell it’

 

[Backroom_boy]

Tilt isn’t offered by any of the train manufactures in UK loading gauge at present, quite simply the ‘shop doesn’t sell it’

Oh sure but was Avanti really bothered by that?

 

[Skie]

“Manufacturer has tilt if DFT has coin”

They could have had tilt if they were willing to fund an entirely bespoke design. Given the plans for HS2 when ordered it didn’t make any sense to spend a huge amount on what would be legacy trains on the WCML. Now it looks like a bit of a mistake given how much HS2 has been scaled back.

The 390 replacement project will be interesting.

 

[steeevooo]

How much of a premium would the DfT (ergo the taxpayer) really want to be paying to persuade a train manufacturer to create an entirely bespoke and new design based on tilting software that they no longer offer in the UK, for a not particularly large order?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How much of a premium would the DfT (ergo the taxpayer) really want to be paying to persuade a train manufacturer to create an entirely bespoke and new design based on tilting software that they no longer offer in the UK, for a not particularly large order?

That’s assuming you can actually get a train manufacturer to have some interest in building the thing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Oh sure but was Avanti really bothered by that?

Avanti wasn't going to buy a large fleet of 50+ trains like the Pendolinos, so the unit price would make it unviable for both supplier and TOC.
HS2, on the other hand...
Now route upgrades north of Handsacre/Crewe are out, I think some on the railway are regretting not pursuing a tilt option.
Alstom and others are still building tilting trains elsewhere.

 

[Sorcerer]

“Manufacturer has tilt if DFT has coin”

They could have had tilt if they were willing to fund an entirely bespoke design. Given the plans for HS2 when ordered it didn’t make any sense to spend a huge amount on what would be legacy trains on the WCML. Now it looks like a bit of a mistake given how much HS2 has been scaled back.

The 390 replacement project will be interesting.

Avanti wasn't going to buy a large fleet of 50+ trains like the Pendolinos, so the unit price would make it unviable for both supplier and TOC.
HS2, on the other hand...
Now route upgrades north of Handsacre/Crewe are out, I think some on the railway are regretting not pursuing a tilt option.
Alstom and others are still building tilting trains elsewhere.

Even though HS2 has been scaled back I still don't expect any 390 replacements to be tilting trains. As I understand it that would mean Alstom would need to rewrite TASS, and any other manufacturer would need to adopt it or create their own form of tilt signalling. Plus tilting trains are heavier and it seems a lot of operators don't think of them as a worthy investment even without phase 1 of HS2 removing some of the curves. This includes the present 805s which could possibly be approved for 125mph running without tilt.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Alstom and others are still building tilting trains elsewhere.

Yes but not for a smaller loading gauge.

 

[nwales58]

They could have had tilt if they were willing to fund an entirely bespoke design. Given the plans for HS2 when ordered it didn’t make any sense to spend a huge amount on what would be legacy trains on the WCML. Now it looks like a bit of a mistake given how much HS2 has been scaled back.

There is one off-the-shelf 360 km/h (passive) tilt train with a current production line. As it has end rather than distributed power, slimming the coaches for our loading gauge might not be too hard. OTOH its floor height would be a challenge for the UK. Talgo. OK, their deliveries range from late to very very late, but WCML could be desperate and DfT is mug enough to fall for another 'innovative', flexible solution.

 

[Andy Pacer]

The 805s are certainly very heavy on the automated announcements.