Transport for Wales Class 230

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the past, I recall that someone thought that Merseyrail should take over the running of the Borderland Line to Wrexham and an assumption was raised that Transport for Wales would not be too unhappy to see that happen.

That being the case, noting that Transport for Wales own the five Class 230 units, would these be sold on to Merseyrail to offset the monies they paid for them?

 

[Bob Price]

The long term plan is that the Borderlands line will operate into Liverpool. TfW have stated that. So they will need full battery electric trains. These would either be TfW owned 777's or Merseyrail ones. However nothing will happen until the fast charging trial is complete and the technology proven or battery efficiency improves. There is nearly next to no hope that the line will be electrified. The 230's were only supposed to be an interim solution until the technology was there to replace them.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The long term plan is that the Borderlands line will operate into Liverpool. TfW have stated that. So they will need full battery electric trains. These would either be TfW owned 777's or Merseyrail ones. However nothing will happen until the fast charging trial is complete and the technology proven or battery efficiency improves. There is nearly next to no hope that the line will be electrified. The 230's were only supposed to be an interim solution until the technology was there to replace them.

Interesting, why would they need full battery electric trains ? Plenty of diesel units already run to liverpool.

 

[TheSel]

Interesting, why would they need full battery electric trains ? Plenty of diesel units already run to liverpool.

Not via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel they don't!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Not via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel they don't!

Ok, but that’s doesn’t answer my question.
Is there a restriction on diesel traction via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel ?

 

[WirralLine]

They could do with sorting out some of the platforms though very uneasy waiting at stations like Heswall since it’s a floating platform that can barely fit the 230.

There's not really any need to sort out platform lengths. Heswall is tight but it fits with a couple of feet to spare, it just requires a little bit of extra care from both the driver - ensuring their stopping is accurate, and the guard, ensuring the train is accommodated.

Buckley is the only other station where it is a problem, as the train doesn't fit - but this has been worked around by making the Bidston end passenger doors on 230s not for passenger use. Again it just requires stopping precision from the driver, and extra care from the guard to ensure the unit is stopped correctly.

To the best of my knowledge it hasn't caused any problems so far at either station other than the extra caution causing a delay on the old timetable. The new timetable is a bit more slack, and the 230s manage to stick to it just fine.

On the subject of platforms, I have noticed works are ongoing to replace the rotten wooden surface at at Neston.

 

[CaramellDansen]

very uneasy waiting at stations like Heswall since it’s a floating platform that can barely fit the 230.

(emphasis mine)

What do you mean by "floating"?

 

[John R]

Ok, but that’s doesn’t answer my question.
Is there a restriction on diesel traction via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel ?

Yes, and I think most people would have concluded that from the way the answer was written.

 

[arfortune]

Ok, but that’s doesn’t answer my question.
Is there a restriction on diesel traction via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel ?

Hi - Perfectly legitimate question that doesn't need a sarcastic response!
There are restrictions and also trains need cab end doors for evacuation purposes.
Lots of work going on by the various bodies looking at technology needs and how best the line can operate in the future.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes, and I think most people would have concluded that from the way the answer was written.

Wow, you think? It should have been fairly obvious that I had pretty much come to that conclusion, as you say, based on how it was written.
Whilst there are some fantastic ku knowledgable people that give great info on here, Unfortunately these forums are also filled with dimwits that can’t give a normal answer to someone asking a question, seems you fall in to the latter ?
I thought I would seek confirmation that my assumption was correct and that they didn’t think they were being funny as it could just be that no diesel trains that run through there as it’s only Merseyrail that use the line. I’m not familiar with that part of the network so always good to make sure.

Hi - Perfectly legitimate question that doesn't need a sarcastic response!
There are restrictions and also trains need cab end doors for evacuation purposes.
Lots of work going on by the various bodies looking at technology needs and how best the line can operate in the future.

Oh wow ok that’s really interesting, I guess that’s why the 777’s have got that door on the ends then! Had always wondered that.
Thanks for that

 

[CaergwrleKen]

There's not really any need to sort out platform lengths. Heswall is tight but it fits with a couple of feet to spare, it just requires a little bit of extra care from both the driver - ensuring their stopping is accurate, and the guard, ensuring the train is accommodated.

Buckley is the only other station where it is a problem, as the train doesn't fit - but this has been worked around by making the Bidston end passenger doors on 230s not for passenger use. Again it just requires stopping precision from the driver, and extra care from the guard to ensure the unit is stopped correctly.

To the best of my knowledge it hasn't caused any problems so far at either station other than the extra caution causing a delay on the old timetable. The new timetable is a bit more slack, and the 230s manage to stick to it just fine.

On the subject of platforms, I have noticed works are ongoing to replace the rotten wooden surface at at Neston.

Just another expense for the 230 bill to make them acceptable. It wouldn’t have taken much to add a few meters to Buckley platform, in the the Wrexham direction part of the old platform was still there so even less work required. But no, they modified the whole fleet to fit and also it means they can never be turned, the 230 must always face the same way because of Buckley. And here we are 5 or 6 years is it after the TFW promises and they still limp around on one diagram a day.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just another expense for the 230 bill to make them acceptable. It wouldn’t have taken much to add a few meters to Buckley platform, in the the Wrexham direction part of the old platform was still there so even less work required. But no, they modified the whole fleet to fit and also it means they can never be turned, the 230 must always face the same way because of Buckley. And here we are 5 or 6 years is it after the TFW promises and they still limp around on one diagram a day.

To just permanently stop using one door does seem a strange solution and not being able to turn them does sound like it could cause an issue at some point but, it’s not caused one yet so I guess few and far between if so.

Extending the platform is a NR thing so perhaps NR weren’t keen or it was deemed too expensive (I don’t know the station so not sure of any challenges present).

Either way, doesn’t seem to be a huge issue and perhaps if NR get around to sorting out the capacity issue with the line itself they might extend Buckley a bit and then the door can just be reinstated.

 

[TheSel]

Ok, but that’s doesn’t answer my question.
Is there a restriction on diesel traction via Birkenhead and the Mersey tunnel ?

Please accept my apologies if my reply was less than complete. The question of stock suitability and and technical requirements has previously been addressed in ths thread. Please see posts #355 to #357.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Please accept my apologies if my reply was less than complete. The question of stock suitability and and technical requirements has previously been addressed in ths thread. Please see posts #355 to #357.

haha I suppose you’re excused
Thanks. I see that I myself posted #359 in response to post #358 so I obviously wasn’t very observant at the time

 

[craigybagel]

Oh wow ok that’s really interesting, I guess that’s why the 777’s have got that door on the ends then! Had always wondered that.
Thanks for that

It's also been suggested that bi-modes aren't allowed down there either, even running on electric. Nothing with a fuel tank. I know 73s used to go down there but I'm not sure if that was permitted when the line was open to the public.

 

[WirralLine]

It's also been suggested that bi-modes aren't allowed down there either, even running on electric. Nothing with a fuel tank. I know 73s used to go down there but I'm not sure if that was permitted when the line was open to the public.

The 73s are only allowed through outside of service hours but I believe that's partly due to the fact they're not fitted with tripcock/trainstop equipment.

Network Rail MPVs go through during service hours though (or they used to) but not through the single bore bits, only as far as James St to turn back if I remember rightly.

 

[Tony2]

The 73s are only allowed through outside of service hours but I believe that's partly due to the fact they're not fitted with tripcock/trainstop equipment.

Network Rail MPVs go through during service hours though (or they used to) but not through the single bore bits, only as far as James St to turn back if I remember rightly.

I was surprised by MPV 98901/51 charging through Moorfields on 3S90 on 08/02/24!

 

[childwallblues]

It's also been suggested that bi-modes aren't allowed down there either, even running on electric. Nothing with a fuel tank. I know 73s used to go down there but I'm not sure if that was permitted when the line was open to the public.

Many years ago when the loop was closed for engineering there were reports of a Class 66 on the loop.

 

[Invincible]

The long term plan is that the Borderlands line will operate into Liverpool. TfW have stated that. So they will need full battery electric trains. These would either be TfW owned 777's or Merseyrail ones. However nothing will happen until the fast charging trial is complete and the technology proven or battery efficiency improves. There is nearly next to no hope that the line will be electrified. The 230's were only supposed to be an interim solution until the technology was there to replace them.

The 230s still have at least 10 years life left, so isn't the plan to improve batteries so the 230s will be able to work better as hybrid trains, less dependant on the diesel engines, which can be switched off approaching stations (using the braking to charge batteries), then after leaving stations, switch the diesel generators back on and further recharge batteries.
Then at some point in the future from this report from 2023

Calls for Merseyrail trains to operate on Wrexham to Bidston line

www.wrexham.com

Some battery/3rd rail 777s could work alongside the 230s proving some through trains from Wrexham to Merseyside? (If FAST charging points can be installed in Wrexham?).

The 3rd rail kit has been removed from the 230s otherwise the 230s could also run into Merseyside, but the diesel fuel tanks will still have fuel preventing hybrid powered 230s running in the tunnels.

 

[Zontar]

The 230s still have at least 10 years life left, so isn't the plan to improve batteries so the 230s will be able to work better as hybrid trains, less dependant on the diesel engines, which can be switched off approaching stations (using the braking to charge batteries), then after leaving stations, switch the diesel generators back on and further recharge batteries.
Then at some point in the future from this report from 2023

Calls for Merseyrail trains to operate on Wrexham to Bidston line

www.wrexham.com

Some battery/3rd rail 777s could work alongside the 230s proving some through trains from Wrexham to Merseyside? (If FAST charging points can be installed in Wrexham?).

The 3rd rail kit has been removed from the 230s otherwise the 230s could also run into Merseyside, but the diesel fuel tanks will still have fuel preventing hybrid powered 230s running in the tunnels.

They won't last ten years.
They can't go in the tunnels as they have no front/rear egress

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How did the Class 230 units fare on Wednesday and Thursday this week, both days being high temperatures with high pollen counts?

 

[Invincible]

They won't last ten years.

Why won't the refurbishment and battery updates (to reduce use of the diesel engines), not give 230s at least 10 more years life on the Wrexham Bidston line? (alongside perhaps some 777s), plus other Island and GWR lines.

 

[Northerngirl]

Wouldn't it make most sense to put them on the conway valley (and Oswestry of that happens) once they are displaced by 777s

 

[Invincible]

Wouldn't it make most sense to put them on the conway valley (and Oswestry of that happens) once they are displaced by 777s

There is no confirmation the 230s will be displaced fully by 777s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wouldn't it make most sense to put them on the conway valley (and Oswestry of that happens) once they are displaced by 777s

What is your source for the item that that I have emboldened above?

 

[WirralLine]

Wouldn't it make most sense to put them on the conway valley (and Oswestry of that happens) once they are displaced by 777s

I'm pretty sure the lack of end gangway was part of the reason they wern't put into use there too - the 2.5mile Ffestiniog tunnel. Not sure exactly, not a route I work and can't remember the ins and outs of what was said!

Also there hasn't been any confirmation that 777s will takeover the line, just that is is the most likely solution. At the moment they struggle to work the half a mile journey to Headbolt Lane without fault.

 

[Northerngirl]

What is your source for the item that that I have emboldened above?

I made it up

 

[Zontar]

Why won't the refurbishment and battery updates (to reduce use of the diesel engines), not give 230s at least 10 more years life on the Wrexham Bidston line? (alongside perhaps some 777s), plus other Island and GWR lines.

They can't manage a day's service.

 

[Lurcheroo]

If the 777’s could work all the way to Wrexham then what about the possibility of having an ‘express’ service and a stopper service? 777’s operating the express all the way through to liverpool and 230’s operating the stopper Just as far as Bidston.
I’m not sure how many stops it would be viable to cut out for the express service. It could also possible only go as far as general. Less stop and terminating at general would reduce demand on the battery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the 777’s could work all the way to Wrexham then what about the possibility of having an ‘express’ service and a stopper service? 777’s operating the express all the way through to liverpool and 230’s operating the stopper Just as far as Bidston.
I’m not sure how many stops it would be viable to cut out for the express service. It could also possible only go as far as general. Less stop and terminating at general would reduce demand on the battery.

What will happen if the express service finds itself behind a failed Class 230 stopping service?