Borders Railway extension - Gareth Dennis proposal

[Transilien]

An interesting point, but if this line was still open today, would it actually have any services do you think, other than potentially some freight services taking a scenic route and passenger trains between Hawick and Edinburgh?

I think so as other lines serving even more rural areas like the far north line stayed open, the Waverley route would have remained open with a few passenger trains per day running between Edinburgh and Carlisle and at least an hourly service between Edinburgh and Hawick. As mentioned earlier it would be used as a diversionary route.

 

[trebor79]

What if some of the 1.5m new homes Labour is promising take the form of a new city somewhere in the borders?
Sounds crazy, but it's a vast expanse of nowt in particular and other places are getting crowded.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. But such work is not set in stone.

As ballast is stone, techincally such work is set in stone.

 

[The Planner]

You are going to have to explain that one.

Indeed. But such work is not set in stone.

 

[HSTEd]

What if some of the 1.5m new homes Labour is promising take the form of a new city somewhere in the borders?
Sounds crazy, but it's a vast expanse of nowt in particular and other places are getting crowded.

On the English side of the border its virtually all National Park, and Starmer will never expend the political capital to build in one.
On the Scottish side, the nationalist-run Scottish Government has control of the planning system and would never agree to a settlement that would add hundreds of thousands of likely English voters to the Scottish electorate.

The borders are likely to remain a desert forever.

 

[trebor79]

On the English side of the border its virtually all National Park, and Starmer will never expend the political capital to build in one.
On the Scottish side, the nationalist-run Scottish Government has control of the planning system and would never agree to a settlement that would add hundreds of thousands of likely English voters to the Scottish electorate.

The borders are likely to remain a desert forever.

Well quite. But it's a bit bonkers when you think about it. The little remaining areas of wilderness and nature being trashed in the busier parts of the country, along with the associated water stress, lack of proper space for people etc. and we preserve this huge area of wilderness that basically nobody ever sees anyway.

Carlisle could do with a big dollop of investment.

 

[Buzby]

never agree to a settlement that would add hundreds of thousands of likely English voters

Really? They’re there already - better yet, visit Dumfries - you’ll wait a long time before hearing a Scots accent. ‘Non-locals’ have made Scotland their home for many reasons - and no doubt helped to halt Independence - so that ship has sailed, and there’s no reason to ban construction on those grounds alone.

 

[MPW]

I love gareth dennis. Interesting to see some opposing views. His methodology with population centres and explaining business case and engineering aspects is something that I don't really see elsewhere. Maybe some consultations show that kind of analysis but that is after scope had already been defined.

 

[HSTEd]

Really? They’re there already - better yet, visit Dumfries - you’ll wait a long time before hearing a Scots accent. ‘Non-locals’ have made Scotland their home for many reasons - and no doubt helped to halt Independence - so that ship has sailed, and there’s no reason to ban construction on those grounds alone.

Well, for example, a city on the scale of Milton Keynes would be ~10% of the population of Scotland!
It would materially impact the political fortunes of the entire country.

And anything smaller would be unable to sustain itself in such a low population density hinterland, it would turn into another economically deprived and unattractive small town.

I'd suggest is extremely unlikely that any plausible government of Scotland would agree to such a thing.
So that, combined with the National Parks and nature reserves near Kielder Water makes a city in the borders impractical.

Expanding Carlisle might work but I am skeptical you'd get permission to build onto an existing major settlement like that. It would end up with ~5 times the population.

 

[Buzby]

Expanding Carlisle might work but I am skeptical you'd get permission to build onto an existing major settlement like that. It would end up with ~5 times the population.

Considering the bulk of land is on the flood plain of the River Eden - then further north the Solway I do like Carlisle (I worked there for 10 years at Harraby) even if they flattened the racecourse (not a flood risk) you’d still need to get about by car (unlike Hawick!)

 

[wilbers]

Carlisle is expanding, with the plan to increase population by about 30,000 from what it is now over the next 25 years. Just drove past the end of the Southern link road earlier this week (its on the M6 junction 42 roundabout), and according to the dates on the sign its about half way through being constructed, and that is the key bit of transport infrastructure for the c.10,000 houses planned on that side of the city.

 

[fegguk]

Scottish Borders Council are looking for a project manager for the feasibility study agreed by the last Government as part of the Borderlands deal. Gareth’s video was arguing for and alternative through route to rival the West Coast Mainline. Something some of the comments above seem to have missed. It will be interesting to see what the feasibility study says in 3 years’ time. https://www.bordertelegraph.com/news/24542673.project-manager-borders-railway-appointed/

 

[trebor79]

How on earth does a feasibility study take 3 years?
And we wonder why productivity is so long in this country!

 

[Buzby]

I would assume it is because the budget is for 3 years, and if it was completed in 1, they would cancel the rest!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In recent times, noting the power-base change in Scotland, would it be expected that once was in the plans of the previous body would not be in the plans of the present body?

 

[Buzby]

The power base change was in England (our elections are next year). Starmer has already axed the RAF contract for PM travel… so who knows!

 

[David M]

I'm guessing that the role will be cancelled as SBC are looking at budget savings. I'm guessing that any extension is now much less likely to happen given the cuts that Starmer says are coming in October.
Not that I think it would have been likely anyway.

 

[Buzby]

From memory SBC exposure to costs was minimal - ScotGov/Westminster had agreed to split the cost of the project, however with finances being squeezed it makes sense for this to be abandoned.

 

[Nottingham59]

Gareth’s video was arguing for and alternative through route to rival the West Coast Mainline.

A second twin-track railway to "rival" the WCML would provide double the capacity, but four tracking the mainline would provide more.

Put the investment into long passing loops on the WCML, straightening out the curves like at Carstairs, and bypassing bottlenecks like a new tunnel between Slateford and Waverley. That would bring far more benefit than a second twin track railway through sparsely populated countryside.

 

[Killingworth]

A feasibility study shouldn't take as long as a week. Look at OS detailed maps to see how much has been built on and near the likely route since the old line was closed, and the very low population to attract extra patronage between Carlisle and Tweedbank is minimal. The physical geography is fairly challenging too.

Improvements to the ECML and WCML would bring far greater benefits for long distance travellers and be far better use of a lot less money.

Ah, that only took 10 minutes, FOC.

 

[HSTEd]

A second twin-track railway to "rival" the WCML would provide double the capacity, but four tracking the mainline would provide more.

Put the investment into long passing loops on the WCML, straightening out the curves like at Carstairs, and bypassing bottlenecks like a new tunnel between Slateford and Waverley. That would bring far more benefit than a second twin track railway through sparsely populated countryside.

I'd argue if we are going to build more track capacity in the borders we should build a two-track high-speed line from Newcastle to Edinburgh (probably in the A68 corridor).

The WCML corridor has the massive disadvantage that south of the Central belt there is only Carlisle until you get to Lancaster. It's hardly an area capable of producing large increases in rail traffic.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I havent seen this but will now watch it.

I would like to see him do a video on rebuilding the Little North Western and electrifying to Skipton which I believe is a much more worth cause than extending the borders to Carlisle!

 

[lauderlight]

What if some of the 1.5m new homes Labour is promising take the form of a new city somewhere in the borders?
Sounds crazy, but it's a vast expanse of nowt in particular and other places are getting crowded.

Not quite a city, but wasn't there plans to increase housebuilding in the central borders after the railway came to Tweedbank? Effectively turning Gala-Tweedbank-Melrose-Newtown-St boswells into one large town?

And there was a plan to build a e-village just to the south of Lauder whereby the residents wouldn't have to travel to work, just work from home on their computers (this was well before covid).

This wouldn't really help the case for extending the railway to Hawick and beyond. The northern Borders are just commuter towns to Edinburgh. Not helped by the fact that you can't get to Gala from Lauder/Oxton by 9am on a weekday by bus or back from Gala after 5.30 by bus but you can get to/from Edinburgh for those times.

 

[Brush 4]

Umm, how would the timber get from where it is felled to the railhead - are the trees going to fall neatly onto the wagons?

It doesn't fall neatly into the lorries either, it has to be placed in them as well.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree there, you didn't twig what they were getting at. Time to turn over a new leaf perhaps.

Sorry, I'll stop now. In a nutshell, sorry, Hawick yes, beyond there not really.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

From memory SBC exposure to costs was minimal - ScotGov/Westminster had agreed to split the cost of the project, however with finances being squeezed it makes sense for this to be abandoned.

At the moment (at least, as of 29 August), it would appear that 50% of money from the Scottish Government is committed, and the Council are at least advertising the project manager job "while waiting to receive similar confirmation from UK Government Ministers".

https://scottishborders.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s84939/Item%20No.%207%20-%20Borders%20Railway%20Senior%20Project%20Manager%20-%20Report%20-%20Council%20-%2029%20August%202024.pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Harking back to the milk TV advert with two Liverpool schoolboys, I feel like saying "Gareth Dennis, who is he?"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

At the moment (at least, as of 29 August), it would appear that 50% of money from the Scottish Government is committed, and the Council are at least advertising the project manager job "while waiting to receive similar confirmation from UK Government Ministers".

https://scottishborders.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s84939/Item%20No.%207%20-%20Borders%20Railway%20Senior%20Project%20Manager%20-%20Report%20-%20Council%20-%2029%20August%202024.pdf

Bit premature to advertise for the role of Project Manager..if not all 100% project finance is fully committed. Would it not have been advisable to see which "matters of pain" that have been referred to in advance of the National Budget that news will be announced at Westminster?