Revenue Protection at Brighton

[Tazi Hupefi]

Sounds to me as though someone ought to suggest increasing the Minimum Connection Time at Brighton if the situation is likely to be permanent. I suspect internally, Revenue Protection/Stations departments not communicating with their Operations/Planning department.

However, there is a significant amount of revenue loss / fraud because of bad customers - it isn't just the odd few these days - it's absolutely appalling how bad it has become. Regrettably, that sort of situation can't continue - and this is the overall outcome. I'd personally rather have an increased minimum connection time knowing that a good proportion of the customers that make travel unpleasant are filtered out (and in my experience, fare evaders are often responsible for far more than just avoiding their fare, and engage in other anti social behaviour).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Sounds to me as though someone ought to suggest increasing the Minimum Connection Time at Brighton if the situation is likely to be permanent. I suspect internally, Revenue Protection/Stations departments not communicating with their Operations/Planning department.

However, there is a significant amount of revenue loss / fraud because of bad customers - it isn't just the odd few these days - it's absolutely appalling how bad it has become. Regrettably, that sort of situation can't continue - and this is the overall outcome. I'd personally rather have an increased minimum connection time knowing that a good proportion of the customers that make travel unpleasant are filtered out (and in my experience, fare evaders are often responsible for far more than just avoiding their fare, and engage in other anti social behaviour).

Is the check (which I have yet to experience on any if my times at that station) only for people changing platforms without going via the barrier? If you exit and re-enter via the barrier further along, does this avoid the extra time (for only a small time penalty than if nether happened)?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sounds to me as though someone ought to suggest increasing the Minimum Connection Time at Brighton if the situation is likely to be permanent.

Normally 10 minutes at Brighton, isn't it, which seems reasonable. Not sure why the Southern->Southern minimum connection time should only be 4 minutes.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Finally got a reply to my complaint.



For me the biggest problem is still the contempt the company has for connecting passengers. This could be easily solved by instead of hiring 12 agency staff that do nothing aside from get abuse, they could instead simply deploy a couple of actual revenue protection officers to manually check any paper tickets for connecting passengers.

Wouldn't delay repay apply in this case if you missed your connection because of the ticket checks and then them losing that revenue make them aware of the problem.

There weren't any checks between connecting passengers when I passed both ways on Saturday.

 

[swt_passenger]

Normally 10 minutes at Brighton, isn't it, which seems reasonable. Not sure why the Southern->Southern minimum connection time should only be 4 minutes.

Aren’t all services at Brighton operated by the same TOC, so there shouldn’t be any differences? I think that’s the general view about the fares…

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Aren’t all services at Brighton operated by the same TOC, so there shouldn’t be any differences?

Could be a throwback to when XC and GWR and SWT all operated out of Brighton. Moot point also as to what the Minimum Connection Time should be for a connection from say, a Thameslink branded service onto Southern.

 

[Hadders]

Southern brand to Southern brand connection time at Brighton is 4 minutes. Otherwise the minimum connection time is 10 minutes.

At times it seems as though the railway can't win - people moan when tickets aren't checked and then moan when they are and they're delayed.

This said, passengers making connections should not be delayed or forced to exit and re-enter, in my opinion and it's poor from GTR if this is what they are being required to do.

 

[paul1609]

Aren’t all services at Brighton operated by the same TOC, so there shouldn’t be any differences? I think that’s the general view about the fares…

I think that the 4 minute minimum connection came about when the through Coastway services were discontinued in the early 2000s in order to meet the claim that the journeytimes wernt being extended.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think that the 4 minute minimum connection came about when the through Coastway services were discontinued in the early 2000s in order to meet the claim that the journeytimes wernt being extended.

That would certainly be the sort of thing they’d do, I suppose.

 

[williamn]

Southern brand to Southern brand connection time at Brighton is 4 minutes. Otherwise the minimum connection time is 10 minutes.

At times it seems as though the railway can't win - people moan when tickets aren't checked and then moan when they are and they're delayed.

This said, passengers making connections should not be delayed or forced to exit and re-enter, in my opinion and it's poor from GTR if this is what they are being required to do.

This is the problem. It would be very easy to come up with a solution for connecting passengers while still checking tickets. Unfortunately the barriers are manned by agency staff who really don't care.

 

[paul1609]

That would certainly be the sort of thing they’d do, I suppose.

In all fairness I do the Brighton Connection all the time enroute from Romney Marsh down to Pompey. Most of the time its pretty robust. I certainly have times going East particulary when I miss the connection but its usually a major disruption rather than missing the connection by 5 mins. Ive only seen the out and in barrier arrangement a couple of times (i think its probably concentrated at peak times) but that has never made me miss the connection either.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The West Coastway has for a long time been a hot spot for fare evasion, pre Covid I did several Ticketless Travel Surveys over 5-6 weeks at a time checking tickets which we conducted 6am-11am at the rear exit of Worthing which has no gates & college/schools nearby not that they were the worst offenders by any stretch as often caught many with out of date London season tickets or holding a ticket that had been taken from a bin when a colleague & myself were spotted, in the crowd coming through from the trains we could see them raiding the bin for used even previous days tickets or carrying a ticket from weeks before.
Also adults travelling on child tickets or buying off peak in peak times as at that time you could get off peak at the TVMs during peak periods.
Also prevalent at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring where then had to tell them to go to the TVM or ticket office (if open) but of course they would buy short ticket for a cheaper fare or just do a runner.
Overall on a 5 hour survey it wasn’t unusual to find 30% plus travelling illegally.
With that said as agency staff I/we had no real authority unless on occasion the REOs or Fraud team were present to trace personal details & issuing of fines.
We always had to work the London/Brighton bound travellers. Seems the blocks at Brighton of late shows things not improved greatly.

Surely GTR can ensure that nobody can take a ticket out of a bin either by making this physically impossible or frequently emptying the bins to deal with this problem? Clearly GTR should install ticket gates at the ungated exit from Worthing Station and look at installing ticket gates at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring. Aldrington Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Hove Station (ticket gates) and Fishersgate Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Portslade Station (ticket gates) so Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations being so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively are effectively acting as ungated exits to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively. I cannot see the point in having Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations when they are so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively and as Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations must surely be creating a revenue protection risk it would be better to close them and advise any passengers using them to use Hove and Portslade Stations respectively instead. Between Littlehampton and Brighton this would leave only East Worthing and Southwick Stations without ticket gates, it would clearly not be possible to install ticket gates at East Worthing Station but ticket gates could presumably also be installed at Southwick Station. Finally GTR staff need to always check passengers' tickets and railcards on Southern East and West Coastway trains so passengers travelling on Southern East and West Coastway trains have the expectation that their ticket and railcard will be checked on the train and could be checked at any point in their journey.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Finally GTR staff need to always check passengers' tickets and railcards on Southern East and West Coastway trains so passengers travelling on Southern East and West Coastway trains have the expectation that their ticket and railcard will be checked on the train and could be checked at any point in their journey.

If the OBS simply did their job none of these other arrangements would be needed.

 

[Robertj21a]

If the OBS simply did their job none of these other arrangements would be needed.

I think the majority do. Whether they can realistically check every passenger, sometimes over quite short trips, will be more of a challenge.

 

[nanstallon]

Surely GTR can ensure that nobody can take a ticket out of a bin either by making this physically impossible or frequently emptying the bins to deal with this problem? Clearly GTR should install ticket gates at the ungated exit from Worthing Station and look at installing ticket gates at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring. Aldrington Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Hove Station (ticket gates) and Fishersgate Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Portslade Station (ticket gates) so Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations being so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively are effectively acting as ungated exits to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively. I cannot see the point in having Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations when they are so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively and as Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations must surely be creating a revenue protection risk it would be better to close them and advise any passengers using them to use Hove and Portslade Stations respectively instead. Between Littlehampton and Brighton this would leave only East Worthing and Southwick Stations without ticket gates, it would clearly not be possible to install ticket gates at East Worthing Station but ticket gates could presumably also be installed at Southwick Station. Finally GTR staff need to always check passengers' tickets and railcards on Southern East and West Coastway trains so passengers travelling on Southern East and West Coastway trains have the expectation that their ticket and railcard will be checked on the train and could be checked at any point in their journey.

Closing stations just because they are close to other stations, for revenue protection purposes, is a bit harsh. Maybe I'm an old fashioned leftie, but I've always felt that the railways should put the customer first. Silly old me!

 

[MrJeeves]

If the OBS simply did their job none of these other arrangements would be needed.

I have no idea if this is just placebo, but ever since the June timetable change I've noticed a significant increase of ticket checks on both BML and West Coastway services both during the week and the peak.

Every Southern train I've taken this month for more than just a few stops has had a check, typically after locations like Horsham on the Bognor/Pompey splitters as well as after East Croydon on most services.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Surely GTR can ensure that nobody can take a ticket out of a bin either by making this physically impossible or frequently emptying the bins to deal with this problem? Clearly GTR should install ticket gates at the ungated exit from Worthing Station and look at installing ticket gates at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring. Aldrington Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Hove Station (ticket gates) and Fishersgate Station (no ticket gates) is only 15 minutes walk from Portslade Station (ticket gates) so Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations being so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively are effectively acting as ungated exits to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively. I cannot see the point in having Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations when they are so close to Hove and Portslade Stations respectively and as Aldrington and Fishersgate Stations must surely be creating a revenue protection risk it would be better to close them and advise any passengers using them to use Hove and Portslade Stations respectively instead. Between Littlehampton and Brighton this would leave only East Worthing and Southwick Stations without ticket gates, it would clearly not be possible to install ticket gates at East Worthing Station but ticket gates could presumably also be installed at Southwick Station. Finally GTR staff need to always check passengers' tickets and railcards on Southern East and West Coastway trains so passengers travelling on Southern East and West Coastway trains have the expectation that their ticket and railcard will be checked on the train and could be checked at any point in their journey.

West Worthing, Durrington and Goring are unmanned most of the time so a ticket gate wouldn't work.

I suspect the new setup at Brighton will just inconvenience genuine customers while fare evaders will just adapt and carry on. Preston Park and Hove are only a few minutes apart and avoid Brighton Station.

That said it is encouraging to see more ticket checks on services in the area including railcards.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Closing stations just because they are close to other stations, for revenue protection purposes, is a bit harsh. Maybe I'm an old fashioned leftie, but I've always felt that the railways should put the customer first. Silly old me!

As well as the revenue protection issue stops at Fishersgate and Aldrington (which have about one tenth of the published footfall of Portslade and Hove respectively) make the service slower and therefore less attractive for all rail passengers using West Coastway services who do not use Fishersgate and Aldrington as GTR acknowledge on page 16 of the following document which is why Fishersgate and Aldrington are only served by the hourly all stops Brighton to Chichester train except at weekday peak times in the new West Coastway Monday to Saturday timetable that started this month

https://www.southernrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/west-coastway/west-coastway-engagement-document.pdf

To provide attractive journey times between Brighton and Portsmouth, Fishersgate and Aldrington will no longer see the proposed increase to off-peak half-hourly frequencies all day. They will still be served half-hourly at peak times.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Fishersgate and Aldrington (which have about one tenth of the published footfall of Portslade and Hove respectively)

Yet are still over 100,000 journeys a year, which is markedly more than a vast vast number of stations.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yet are still over 100,000 journeys a year, which is markedly more than a vast vast number of stations.

Potentially more if everyone paid for their tickets, too

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Potentially more if everyone paid for their tickets, too

Oh there's almost certainly a higher number of journeys than is actually published. I mean I have a Portslade season ticket for the flexiblity but practically exclusively use Aldrington.

 

[Chriso]

I was amazed a month ago to be checked twice on a Victoria to Bognor . Once by the OBS between London and Horsham and again by the OBs who took over at Horsham. The gates at Bognor, Barnham and Horsham were working after 21:00 but I did not see the OBS between trips on the return

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2024 ==

Chichester the gates were working on the main side but the 2 x agency staff obviously couldn’t be arsed so left the platform 2 exits wide gate open rendering the entire operation pointless

 

[Sonic1234]

I was amazed a month ago to be checked twice on a Victoria to Bognor

It goes in waves on Southern, like the OBSs get a brief to get out and check tickets so they do, then management ease off and it's back to playing on their phones (for some, anyway).

As GTR reject so many valid tickets at their gates, gates open/ungated is a joy to find on Southern.

 

[MrJeeves]

It goes in waves on Southern, like the OBSs get a brief to get out and check tickets so they do, then management ease off and it's back to playing on their phones (for some, anyway).

I asked two different OBSes recently who have both said that there's not been any specific direction by management to increase checks recently.

I think there has been an influx of new OBS staff, though, at least on West Coastway which could be impacting this. I've had two OBSes on journeys to/from Portsmouth in the last month who have mentioned they are new to the job in conversation.

 

[Ivor]

Surely GTR can ensure that nobody can take a ticket out of a bin either by making this physically impossible or frequently emptying the bins to deal with this problem? Clearly GTR should install ticket gates at the ungated exit from Worthing Station and look at installing ticket gates at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring.

I was told that the rear entrance at Worthing can’t have gates as it’s also classed as a public right of way from a ‘law/ruling’ back in the day but if that’s correct or not I don’t know, seems a weird one to me.

 

[Haywain]

I was told that the rear entrance at Worthing can’t have gates as it’s also classed as a public right of way from a ‘law/ruling’ back in the day but if that’s correct or not I don’t know, seems a weird one to me.

That seems to be the case at a surprising number of stations, alongside listed building restrictions.

 

[OscarH]

I was told that the rear entrance at Worthing can’t have gates as it’s also classed as a public right of way from a ‘law/ruling’ back in the day but if that’s correct or not I don’t know, seems a weird one to me.

I think I also heard (potentially entirely incorrectly) that it would be a right pain to gate, because the width restriction means you'd have an enormous bottleneck with the number of gates

 

[Ivor]

That seems to be the case at a surprising number of stations, alongside listed building restrictions.

Ah interesting, I wonder how many will be like Worthing where there is a Gateline at the main entrance but an ‘open getaway’ on the other side which is also easy to enter & head straight for the platforms?

 

[Chriso]

I believe Redhill was supposed to be gaining a second gate line replacing the current unrated one but this has all gone quiet recently

 

[JonathanH]

I believe Redhill was supposed to be gaining a second gate line replacing the current unrated one but this has all gone quiet recently

It is part of a major project to build flats on the car park at the front of the station which changes the rear access arrangements.