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McNulty Report

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ANorthernGuard

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Guys we need to all settle down here, its not worth it, we have all had our say and we have all got a bit heated, its just a forum lets take a step back and maybe a mod can lock the thread, nothing new is coming out of it now "unless" we alls ettle down abit.
 
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CarterUSM

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On one hand were told don't rely on technology, then you are happy to get on a train (Don't they rely on technology?). On the other you boast how working class you are (I never did understand why people aspire to be of the labouring classes), but you want Middle England wages. On another hand you are telling us how important guards, and how much training they have to have, but then say they are semi-skilled at best?

Make your mind up.

I don't actually regard railway operations staff as unskilled, In fact spend a lot of time explaining the day-to-day problems and challenges, but if you do that's fine. But take a pay cut accordingly, and stop whining how indispensable you are.

Finally you don't know what jobs I have done, it is completely irrelevant in any case to this debate.

I am hopefully informing the less well informed that DOO is not unsafe and the claims made about the effectiveness of guards (or the replacement by revenue protection inspectors) is from overblown to downright lies purely for self-interest reasons by the RMT and others (usually guards and fuddy-duddy drivers).

This is turn diverting precious resources that could be used for real improvements, while maintaining practices from Edwardian England.

The only reason this McNulty thread is centred on DOO, is because the usual suspects are frightened they have no ability whatsoever about finding another job, in the rail industry or elsewhere. More to the point, last time I looked, in most cases you keep your old rate of pay should you be downgraded.

Nevertheless it's all a fruitless waste of time trying to have a debate and sensibly cut costs because agreement will never be reached, because some people cannot accept compromise, sensible and realistic safety management, or any sort of logic based argument. IE why track circuit clips are completely irrelevant with most new signalling schemes, and large parts of the network with AB signalling, the very lines where Guards tend to be employed. Not the high volume suburban services (dare I say DOO services), shifting 20 times more traffic, which seem to miraculously work quite safely.

I fully expect the Unions to still be debating on whether Rich Tea or Digestives are fully safety compliant and the appropriate break-time provision, long after the money has run out and half the network has closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are protected, unless they are made completely redundant and re-employed on new contracts.



Firstly, I have never boasted of being 'working class' and wouldn't use 'class' to define myself whatsoever. I'm just me. Secondly, I mentioned your ex profession as you once remarked in another thread about how much 'senior' you were to me, as if to be-little my role, in fact I find your posts to be on the condescending side as it is, though if this isn't meant then I apologise. Thirdly, I do not believe DOO to be unsafe, slightly less safe perhaps, but certainly not unsafe. Finally, I do not feel I am whining about it, but I do find that people exclaiming of delays due to station duties being performed or not getting those 2 tickets because the guard is getting thr doors is nonsense. It certainly is where I am, which incidently includes a busy suburban network that is also track circuited. I wouldn't extend DOO any further as I believe it is slightly less safe and to be honest what is really wanted is just a 'guard' on the cheap. I won't respond to the childish union jibes though.........
 

moggie

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2 Jan 2010
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426
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West Midlands
McNulty’s report imho is riddled with contradictions and muddled thinking.

Let us consider some of his headline observations that he considers the root of many of the industry’s woes (yet he says virtually nothing on the major issue of inefficiencies caused by the industry structure created by privatisation and some of the perverse commercial behaviours that have spawned from this).

Train Crew – he acknowledges the increase in passenger services over 15 years creating an increased demand for a specialist skill in a niche market (train drivers) yet bemoans the fact that in a free market this group of staff have exploited their position to better their lot.

He proposes that guards are removed from trains as cost saving measure at the same time as closing hundreds of ticket offices yet expects revenue to take an increasing share of the overall cost of running the railway. Is he proposing honesty boxes?

Removing guards from those lines not operated under DOO requires an increased driver workload at the same time as he is proposing a reduction in terms and conditions for drivers (and other staff employed within the private sector).

DOO alone requires significant costs for infrastructure improvements in the form of secure radio coverage, improvements to platform infrastructure and possible resignalling. At the same time he calls for increased resignalling for capacity improvements using ‘new technologies’ yet warns against over heating of the signalling supply market. This is at a time when signalling renewal works and planned modernisation is already planned to increase to replace life expired signalling equipment near the end of its service life. How does he propose that an already constrained supply industry resulting from the boom and bust market since privatisation is expanded to take on the project workload but to ensure this market does not overheat.

Can NR’s GRIP scheme development process deliver these proposals in sufficient quantity with identified funding in timescales consistent with the money saving timescales.

McNulty proposes wholesale review of engineering standards to remove duplicated, outdated or costly prescriptive standards in favour of less prescriptive standards classified by mandatory requirements or grades of guidance / non-mandatory requirements. All to be overseen by a new national delivery group body which will presumably start work at around the same time as many of the other initiatives commence. Precisely at a time when efficient delivery of modernisation projects to facilitate cost savings will require a stable, well defined suite of applicable standards and specifications while grappling with the challenges of new technologies. One can only see failure to properly specify the requirements and the costly change mid project resulting as well as delay – see MOD projects to understand the mess that results.

It seems to me that McNulty requires the industry to approach this report like a ‘charging bull in a china shop’ to achieve rapid savings but putting aside the industrial relations tensions that may arise, the means to achieve these savings through investment cannot take place overnight without the inevitable difficulties and inefficiencies caused by such an approach. I would liken this approach to the recent dash to complete the WCML modernisation following the realisation that the original PUG proposals were unachievable / unaffordable.
 

Metroland

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Then perhaps you'd like to focus in on the bits about 'fuddy-duddy drivers' etc. I'm sorry, but the guy clearly has a massive chip on his shoulder where traincrew are concerned. I'm not sure what his problem is, but this really isn't the place to be airing it.

I think it's rather puzzling that I seem to get involved in spats with certain groups because what I say doesn't suit their agenda, and groups of them seem to pile in on a regular basis. (usually it's about 5 or 6 v 1). Nowt to do with winding people up, they just like to think they have the monopoly on opinion. You don't.

Despite all that I have had one warning since I have been on here which is several years now.

Mainly it's same old railway staff with union based agendas (trust me, my politics is pretty centred so I don't have anything against unions as such - just hard line militant ones that just want to line their members pockets and sod everyone else) who freely advertise the fact, guards when we are are talking about DOO and so on. What I mean by fuddy-duddy drivers, is those that like to do things a certain way, because they always have. You get fuddy-duddys in all areas of society. I don't have anything against train crew at all, it just happens to be them that seem to call the most strikes - which I often don't agree with as the railway is £22bn in debt and climbing, the shear cheek that the tax payer and fare payer will just keep coughing up is turning a lot of people against staff in general. If you don't realise that you are more arrogant that I thought you were.

The other issue tend to be when we are talking about DOO, which I disagree with for very sensible reasons I have outlined with always seemed to get glossed over.

Most people seem to get into spats because they don't read whole threads and misunderstand what I'm actually saying - like the classic old-timer thread that went on for 20 pages. For example, I have never said there should be just the driver on board, I have always argued for 2 people where possible. But it doesn't stop the hard of understanding going on about ticket fraud (even though if the second person was more focussed on that there would be less) and so on.

Quite honestly Ferret, if you don't like my opinion tough. It's what I honestly believe, and I do have the experience to back it up, so less of the smart arse remarks please. We can agree to disagree (because I'm not going to change my mind, and I don't expect you to either) but don't steam in here wishing you was a moderator hoping to sensor me because it doesn't suit you.

It's the other side of the coin, people are grown up to make their own mind up. It's not the picket line, where we act like little children and don't talk to one another because we have a different opinion.

Metroland just one simple question, what is it you do? the way you put your words you sound like someone in training, but when it comes to the actual operations you seem to have no idea? we are either just trying to save our jobs or "fuddy duddy" drivers, Now to have the right to say these sort of things you must have something experience wise to back them up???

Rather than posting my CV, why don't we stick to the point. Let's have a really technical discussion on DOO, the rule book, past accidents, we can talk about any part of the country you like too and the signalling and types of trains and services in use. Which would be far more informative than mud-slinging and daft-remarks.
 
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Metroland

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I've answered it, apologies, I looked at it before and had to do something else and then forgot about it.
 

1V53

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23 Feb 2011
Messages
368
I've read the whole thread and as a guard wish to just make some observations:

1. There is a lot of waste of money on the railway, in all areas. Many things need a root and branch overhaul.

2. There is huge waste on fancy projects which seem to come to nothing. We had RETB trialled on the Cambrian line since 1986, hailed as a new way forward. Now scrapped, and I've heard the figure of £50 million mentioned re ERTMS. £50 million?! Ok we need to modernise but why are we pioneering something even the Europeans don't want?

3. I am no expert but I understood Swiss, French, German etc railways to be heavily state subsidised? Does anyone run an efficient national railway without subsidy?

4. If we have profit making firms running railway companies for, Er, profit.... well why can't we have state run railway (with separately managed sectors in business units) with profit coming back to... Er... The state?!

5. I don't want to get involved in the arguments re guards except to say my knowledge has helped in many situations, eg remedying door faults quickly because of the traction knowledge training (something I haven't seen mentioned here?)

6. The spares etc. Yes can be very wasteful. BUT ask why? There are huge penalties for operators who cancel services, so it is in the companies interests to pay staff to sit spare as it is an insurance policy for them, it's cheaper than cancelling trains. It's not the unions insisting on spares.
 

Greenback

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1V53 has hit ona very good point about spares. It is the way the system has been constructed that helps to increase costs - it is cheaper for TOC's to have staff sitting around than to cancel trains. I'm sure the passnegers don't mind it too much either.

Yet McNulty hasn't really tried to get to grips with this sort of thing. Why hasn't he highlighted the number of staff involved in delay attribution? There was no such thing before privatisation!
 

CarterUSM

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Delay attribution seems to be the most important thing in the railway now, delay minutes get tossed about like a hot potato between various departments in a TOC and Network Rail.
 

ANorthernGuard

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8 Oct 2010
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2,662
I think it's rather puzzling that I seem to get involved in spats with certain groups because what I say doesn't suit their agenda, and groups of them seem to pile in on a regular basis. (usually it's about 5 or 6 v 1). Nowt to do with winding people up, they just like to think they have the monopoly on opinion. You don't.

Despite all that I have had one warning since I have been on here which is several years now.

Mainly it's same old railway staff with union based agendas (trust me, my politics is pretty centred so I don't have anything against unions as such - just hard line militant ones that just want to line their members pockets and sod everyone else) who freely advertise the fact, guards when we are are talking about DOO and so on. What I mean by fuddy-duddy drivers, is those that like to do things a certain way, because they always have. You get fuddy-duddys in all areas of society. I don't have anything against train crew at all, it just happens to be them that seem to call the most strikes - which I often don't agree with as the railway is £22bn in debt and climbing, the shear cheek that the tax payer and fare payer will just keep coughing up is turning a lot of people against staff in general. If you don't realise that you are more arrogant that I thought you were.

The other issue tend to be when we are talking about DOO, which I disagree with for very sensible reasons I have outlined with always seemed to get glossed over.

Most people seem to get into spats because they don't read whole threads and misunderstand what I'm actually saying - like the classic old-timer thread that went on for 20 pages. For example, I have never said there should be just the driver on board, I have always argued for 2 people where possible. But it doesn't stop the hard of understanding going on about ticket fraud (even though if the second person was more focussed on that there would be less) and so on.

Quite honestly Ferret, if you don't like my opinion tough. It's what I honestly believe, and I do have the experience to back it up, so less of the smart arse remarks please. We can agree to disagree (because I'm not going to change my mind, and I don't expect you to either) but don't steam in here wishing you was a moderator hoping to sensor me because it doesn't suit you.

It's the other side of the coin, people are grown up to make their own mind up. It's not the picket line, where we act like little children and don't talk to one another because we have a different opinion.



Rather than posting my CV, why don't we stick to the point. Let's have a really technical discussion on DOO, the rule book, past accidents, we can talk about any part of the country you like too and the signalling and types of trains and services in use. Which would be far more informative than mud-slinging and daft-remarks.

so you have absolutely nothing to do with the railway then??? now i'm sure mentioning your area of expertise wouldn't put you at any risk of action from your employers? I asked a very simple question that was all, you seem to like being at odds with the majority...good for you *cough. I personally tried to get things back ontrack and get everyone calmed down but you obviously like a good row so there you go you have one.
 

1V53

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23 Feb 2011
Messages
368
To be honest, despite finding Metroland's views at odds with many of mine and Northern Guard's closely aligned in many cases; I really am finding this arguing tiresome.

I tried to inject some fresh ideas last night and decided to sidestep the 'get rid of the guard/dont be ridiculous you can't get rid of Guards' arguments, but Metroland and Northern Guard won't leave it alone because both want the last word. Enough!
 

ANorthernGuard

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To be honest, despite finding Metroland's views at odds with many of mine and Northern Guard's closely aligned in many cases; I really am finding this arguing tiresome.

I tried to inject some fresh ideas last night and decided to sidestep the 'get rid of the guard/dont be ridiculous you can't get rid of Guards' arguments, but Metroland and Northern Guard won't leave it alone because both want the last word. Enough!

My apologies, I am no longer making comments due to the integrity of this forum being threatened by pm's from a certain person unveiling who I am to my company. Shame tho as I have enjoyed the combos.
 
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tooltime

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24 May 2011
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1
Just a thought, but if the railway wants to get costs under control, it should be the legions of lawyers, consultants, feasibility studies, marketing & PR types, corporate communications officers, delay attribution, middle management with titles such as 'customer service champion', expensive campaigns to promote 'on time running' which surface every few years with little results, and other such things / positions who should face the axe, before worrying about front line staff.

I'm not going to go down the nationalisation versus privatisation debate again, but if more efficient working practices are required, then it cannot make sense that one company can have spare men sitting around, whilst another company in the same area is canceling trains due to lack of crew.

As for keeping guards, most of the ones I see these days seem to take in enough revenue to justify their wages, regardless of anything else. With the likes of voyagers and whatnot, there aren't many trains left with brake vans to hide in and have a fag or read the paper, and most guards seem to be up and down the train all day.

As a driver if things go wrong, I want a second safety critical, psychometricly tested individual who can help out, be it with just little time saving tasks such as checking rear cabs or whatnot if circuit breakers trip, to riding up front when the rule book requires it, to taking charge in the event of a fatality or emergency. No disrespect to catering staff, but there are plenty I wouldn't want to have any remit in these circumstances, and the ones that are good tend to end up becoming guards or drivers anyway. As for RPOs, let's face it, its a job which is based around dealing with conflict, which is a completely different skillset to that of a guard. I certainly wouldn't have the ability to do their job.

Modern signalling may be more effective at protecting the line from further train incursions into an obstruction / derailment these days than clips and guards and drivers running around, but it can't co-ordinate evacuations, it can't keep people informed. It can't help clear the line of debris when some scumbag has thrown blocks on the tracks or deal with the situation once it has occurred.

I also fail to see how giving the driver all the guards' responsibility, and eliminating them entirely, yet demanding our wages are cut and jobs restructured, yet for more hassle is a sensible idea. Everything these days is about SPAD prevention, distractions, having adequate rest, defensive thinking and suchlike, brief after brief after brief goes on and on about this. How is this in line with forcing more duties onto us, messing around with our hours and conditions and pay?

Incidentally some of you might be familiar with the tree that hit an HST near Westbury recently. The driver thankfully survived, but with broken hands, and was therefore unable to do much. It was the guard who dealt with the signaller and passengers, who had the required route knowledge to identify in the middle of nowhere exactly where they were, and what had gone on.
 

Ferret

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22 Jan 2009
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4,131
I think it's rather puzzling that I seem to get involved in spats with certain groups because what I say doesn't suit their agenda, and groups of them seem to pile in on a regular basis. (usually it's about 5 or 6 v 1). Nowt to do with winding people up, they just like to think they have the monopoly on opinion. You don't.

Despite all that I have had one warning since I have been on here which is several years now.

Mainly it's same old railway staff with union based agendas (trust me, my politics is pretty centred so I don't have anything against unions as such - just hard line militant ones that just want to line their members pockets and sod everyone else) who freely advertise the fact, guards when we are are talking about DOO and so on. What I mean by fuddy-duddy drivers, is those that like to do things a certain way, because they always have. You get fuddy-duddys in all areas of society. I don't have anything against train crew at all, it just happens to be them that seem to call the most strikes - which I often don't agree with as the railway is £22bn in debt and climbing, the shear cheek that the tax payer and fare payer will just keep coughing up is turning a lot of people against staff in general. If you don't realise that you are more arrogant that I thought you were.

The other issue tend to be when we are talking about DOO, which I disagree with for very sensible reasons I have outlined with always seemed to get glossed over.

Most people seem to get into spats because they don't read whole threads and misunderstand what I'm actually saying - like the classic old-timer thread that went on for 20 pages. For example, I have never said there should be just the driver on board, I have always argued for 2 people where possible. But it doesn't stop the hard of understanding going on about ticket fraud (even though if the second person was more focussed on that there would be less) and so on.

Quite honestly Ferret, if you don't like my opinion tough. It's what I honestly believe, and I do have the experience to back it up, so less of the smart arse remarks please. We can agree to disagree (because I'm not going to change my mind, and I don't expect you to either) but don't steam in here wishing you was a moderator hoping to sensor me because it doesn't suit you.

It's the other side of the coin, people are grown up to make their own mind up. It's not the picket line, where we act like little children and don't talk to one another because we have a different opinion.



Rather than posting my CV, why don't we stick to the point. Let's have a really technical discussion on DOO, the rule book, past accidents, we can talk about any part of the country you like too and the signalling and types of trains and services in use. Which would be far more informative than mud-slinging and daft-remarks.

Metroland, I made it perfectly clear I'm glad I'm not a moderator because I'd have to waste far too much of my time dealing with the more offensive parts of your postings. You know full well there are a lot of traincrew on here, but yet you seem to pursue an anti-traincrew agenda on here. Now, why is that? You see, you gibber about strikes, but I can't recall the last time I was even balloted for one of those, let alone actually went out on strike. And how many strikes in other TOCs have there been recently? ATW was one, you could try and argue that the LM Sunday farce was a second, but now I'm struggling.

Returning to the content aspect of your postings, you say that you support having two members of staff on trains. But, unless you're outrageously naive, you must realise that (assuming DOO comes), TOCs won't put a ticket inspector on each train. Look at FCC - is there a gripper on every train?

Moving onwards to your beloved CSR, tell me, does it manage an evacuation of a train? Does it locate a muster point, taking into account debris, any OHLE or other obstructions and/or onerous climbs. Does it make sure that the muster point is suitable?

And, when McNulty has managed to fire all of the station staff and there's only a driver on the train, who will help the disabled onto trains as per the DDA? Oh so many questions........

You see, DOO is all well and good until something happens. And when that something happens, it is far better to have somebody else on board with the required knowledge. If the driver is still capable - bonza, you have two professionals to manage the situation as best they can. With DOO, you run the real risk of having nobody. Sure, if you want to argue that the second member of staff should be more productive then I'd be inclined to agree. But demanding that somebody takes a pay cut to save a few bob on wage costs is the equivalent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, not to mention totally counter-productive. Of course, if I as a total outsider was to audit your place of employment and your job and then say to you as part of an ill-thought out report, you're a waste of space, I'm going to remove some of your responsibilities and halve your pay - you'd be biting my hand off wouldn't you?
 
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Metroland

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Believe me Ferret your posts are equally as offensive, and I will address you are you see fit to address me.

Equally you know there is a lot of customers of the railway on here, but you seek to address them as they know nothing, or shouldn't be concerned about high fares or the sustainability of the network.

Thus if I appear to be 'anti-train crew', it is actually the spin you place on my posts. As I have already pointed out, I disagree with some of the actions taken by train crew in the form of strikes, and more pointed issues on things like DOO, there is nothing more to it than that.

Now to address your points:

As I have said, ideally there should be two members of staff per train, we don't disagree on that. It should be part of the negotiations with the TOCs that there should be two people, except in emergencies (IE dire shortages when there is disruption which would otherwise mean the train is cancelled). They can be held to account through the rail regulator.

I am a fan of CSR because unlike with lineside signalling you can contract crew at any time, broadcast general messages over wide areas, send stop messages to trains at any time, get DSD alerts if the driver is not cancelling the DSD as required, can make public address announcements and so on. I regard this is far superior to traditional lineside signalling with SPTs, for which the cables may be cut during an accident. Especially lines with semaphore boxes. In areas such as that there can be many miles to the nearest signal phone, and should trains required to be stopped and they have passed the last signal, there is no way to stop them.

I have already dealt with emergency protection, and my view is a radio system is far superior to lineside STPs, backed up my people running over a mile to protect trains with explosive in their pockets. Likewise, fully track circuited lines (a requirement of DOO) is far superior to miles of absolute block signalling. Although of course, all the latest resignalling schemes (IE significant parts of the WCML and MML) have axle counters anyway, which make track circuit clips pointless. In any case they only need to be used when there is no communication with the controlling box, which is very rare to non-existent.

Because DOO type working solves a lot of the emergency protection issues, if an accident does happen it allows on-train staff to stay with passengers rather than running along the lines.

Having said that, the fact of the matter if something did happen, which is quite rare, passengers rarely take notice of the guard on the train and just get out as quickly as possible. One guard cannot possibly deal with 500 or more people. They are usually evacuated by members of the emergencies services which tend to be there in minutes. In fact during incidents, most passengers and people on the lineside will dial 999, and this comes back through the network rail/signal boxes often quicker than the train crew can alert staff.

The role of the guard is very much diminished since the days of loco-hauled trains with slam doors, parcels work onboard trains, and a network where semaphore signals with absolute block signalling was the norm, with mile-upon-mile of untrackcircuited lines, with no such thing is cab-radio, GPS and mobile phones.

It's now time to redefine the role to be more customer service focused - and of course they would be trained in first aid, and evacuation. You don't need to pay people thousands of pounds extra, for having protection knowledge where nothing more than pressing an emergency stop button is required or intricate route knowledge in the age of GPS and full track-circuiting. I don't mean this to be offensive, or anti-train crew but it is a fact of technological progress. Yes, there could be a freak accident where everything goes wrong and something happens, but equally there can be one now where we are relying on people to have knowledge and run up the track with a bunch of flags.
 
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Ferret

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22 Jan 2009
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4,131
Believe me Ferret your posts are equally as offensive, and I will address you are you see fit to address me.

Equally you know there is a lot of customers of the railway on here, but you seek to address them as they know nothing, or shouldn't be concerned about high fares or the sustainability of the network.

Piffle. High fares are not caused by traincrew wages and you jolly well know it. What a pathetic disingenuous argument.

Thus if I appear to be 'anti-train crew', it is actually the spin you place on my posts. As I have already pointed out, I disagree with some of the actions taken by train crew in the form of strikes, and more pointed issues on things like DOO, there is nothing more to it than that.

It's not just me that's noticed though is it? I have no desire to spin your posts nor do I need to - they are what they are.

As I have said, ideally there should be two members of staff per train, we don't disagree on that. It should be part of the negotiations with the TOCs that there should be two people, except in emergencies (IE dire shortages when there is disruption which would otherwise mean the train is cancelled). They can be held to account through the rail regulator.

I am a fan of CSR because unlike with lineside signalling you can contract crew at any time, broadcast general messages over wide areas, send stop messages to trains at any time, get DSD alerts if the driver is not cancelling the DSD as required, can make public address announcements and so on. I regard this is far superior to traditional lineside signalling with SPTs, for which the cables may be cut during an accident. Especially lines with semaphore boxes. In areas such as that there can be many miles to the nearest signal phone, and should trains required to be stopped and they have passed the last signal, there is no way to stop them.

I have already dealt with emergency protection, and my view is a radio system is far superior to lineside STPs, backed up my people running over a mile to protect trains with explosive in their pockets. Likewise, fully track circuited lines (a requirement of DOO) is far superior to miles of absolute block signalling. Although of course, all the latest resignalling schemes (IE significant parts of the WCML and MML) have axle counters anyway, which make track circuit clips pointless. In any case they only need to be used when there is no communication with the controlling box, which is very rare to non-existent.

Because DOO type working solves a lot of the emergency protection issues, if an accident does happen it allows on-train staff to stay with passengers rather than running along the lines.

Having said that, the fact of the matter if something did happen, which is quite rare, passengers rarely take notice of the guard on the train and just get out as quickly as possible. One guard cannot possibly deal with 500 or more people. They are usually evacuated by members of the emergencies services which tend to be there in minutes. In fact during incidents, most passengers and people on the lineside will dial 999, and this comes back through the network rail/signal boxes often quicker than the train crew can alert staff.

The role of the guard is very much diminished since the days of loco-hauled trains with slam doors, parcels work onboard trains, and a network where semaphore signals with absolute block signalling was the norm, with mile-upon-mile of untrackcircuited lines, with no such thing is cab-radio, GPS and mobile phones.

It's now time to redefine the role to be more customer service focused.

My role certainly is customer-focused. I deal with the operation of doors, I check tickets, generating far more than my salary each year. I deal with connection queries, I deal with passenger assistance. I don't see how my role could be any more customer-focused.....

Moving on to emergencies, of course, we know from Clapham that on a TCB line, emergency protection wasn't necessary at all was it? Oh, hang on - yes it was! I agree that CSR has its advantages, but it still can't safely evacuate a train. A Guard could though. The response time of the emergency services would depend on location. Ladbroke Grove - less than five minutes possibly. Greyrigg? Hmmmmmmm.

Your point about wanting two members of staff on every train is noted, but as I said, we all know from FCC/SET etc that this doesn't happen. We also know that there is sod all chance of FCC/SET managing to do that in the future, so I'll ask again - once all the station ticket office staff have been booted, how does the McNulty report fit in with the requirements of the DDA?
 

Metroland

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Piffle. High fares are not caused by traincrew wages and you jolly well know it. What a pathetic disingenuous argument.



It's not just me that's noticed though is it? I have no desire to spin your posts nor do I need to - they are what they are.

No the whole rise in costs isn't to do with train crew, but above inflation pay rises ARE part of the problem and that is an inescapable fact.



My role certainly is customer-focused. I deal with the operation of doors, I check tickets, generating far more than my salary each year. I deal with connection queries, I deal with passenger assistance. I don't see how my role could be any more customer-focused.....

Fine, but I'd argue that you don't need to be operating doors, and shouldn't be concerned with train protection other than being able to dial 999, or contact a signaller via a radio/phone. Indeed, it doesn't matter what grade you are, you still have a moral and contractual obligation to act in the safe capacity.


Of course, we know from Clapham that on a TCB line, emergency protection wasn't necessary at all was it? Oh, hang on - yes it was!

A classic case of if CSR was in operation it could be used to stop trains, but here it wasn't because we were still using 19th century procedures.

I agree that CSR has its advantages, but it still can't safely evacuate a train. A Guard could though. The response time of the emergency services would depend on location. Ladbroke Grove - less than five minutes possibly. Greyrigg? Hmmmmmmm.

There's nothing to stop purely customer oriented people, helping others to safety, or indeed other passengers helping other passengers. Again, if the guard is running along to track, he won't be there anyway to help them!

Your point about wanting two members of staff on every train is noted, but as I said, we all know from FCC/SET etc that this doesn't happen. We also know that there is sod all chance of FCC/SET managing to do that in the future, so I'll ask again - once all the station ticket office staff have been booted, how does the McNulty report fit in with the requirements of the DDA?

This is all conjecture, DDA is a legal requirement as you know anyway, so I doubt the TOCs would make no provision.
 

1V53

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I'm not sure where this 'above inflation pay rises' comes from?

I've been a guard for a few years now and any 'above inflation' rises have been in return for selling conditions! Staff are currently being offered 2.5% to commit to working (in some cases) more than 1 in 3 Sundays. This, along with other productivity elements, pushes the offer for last year (from July 2010) to 7%. However many staff would prefer a no strings SUB inflation rise. The basic element is 3.5% which is a rise, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it's not inflation busting.

Please can I just ask that we don't get this thread going down the road of many others ie "I'd do it for half the money" and "you should give up all your conditions for nothing and be glad you have a job".... I think we've done that enough (or start a new thread!).

I'm just pointing out it's easy to make such statements but can we please have all the facts? Thank you.
 

Ferret

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Metroland, tell me, do you have any idea how pay negotiations have worked over the last 10 years or so? Companies haven't just caved in to demands for more money you know! There have been negotiations between Unions and Management, which have resulted in terms and conditions being exchanged for more money. Staff become more productive, saving the company money which is then split between the staff (by way of their wage packet) and the TOC. Sure, the naked figures *sometimes* are above inflation, but that does not tell the whole story. Of course, McNulty is an outsider so it's hardly surprising that this fact has escaped him. You appear to claim inside knowledge though - so how is it that you don't know how pay negotiations work?

As for me not needing to be operating doors, you probably don't know what form of traction I'm working on a regular basis!;)
 
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Metroland

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I'm just pointing out it's easy to make such statements but can we please have all the facts? Thank you.

The trouble is with me, is I do check the facts:

Of course I know how pay-negotiation work, even Bob Crow admits the pick on they weakest TOC and then go to the others for a pay rise.

Mr Crow puts it another way: "We've used the break up of the industry to leapfrog other people. We go to the most sympathetic company and then to the others saying, 'If it's good enough for them, what about you?'"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8294957.stm

This is 100% fine if it's exchanged for productivity and overall costs fall, or even stay the same, the fact is they haven't and train operating costs have risen.

Train operating costs, where costs have increased by £1.7bn, around £0.8bn of which can be attributed to the increase in train-km. Much of the remaining cost increase can be attributed to an increase in staff costs, some of which may be related to increased outputs – for example in terms of station staffing – but some of which reflects salary increases in excess of the increase in average earnings.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rail-vfm-summary-report-may11.pdf

and

1996/97 to 2008/09, TOC real average salary costs increased by 31% compared with 15% growth in real average earnings for the economy as a whole. ATOC recognises this as an issue and
was quoted in the Financial Times in February 2011: “It should be a feature of longer franchises and franchise reform that they are incentivised to do a better job of containing labour costs in future.”

Pretty graph on page 193

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rail-vfm-detailed-report-may11.pdf

Of course it's not all the problem, but it's part of the problem - especially with confrontational unions that seek to have 100 ballots per year. We could equally address other inefficiencies (NR, overmanagemennt, too much red tape) but this is the one people seem to want to take about.


You make your own minds up about it, it's your job not mine:

THE man who has been given the task of assessing rail's value for money for the government has warned that continued taxpayer support of more than £5 billion a year cannot be sustained, and that closures are inevitable unless the industry can trim its costs.

Sir Roy McNulty was speaking at the annual conference of the Derby and Derbyshire Rail Forum, whose delegates were told that costs must come down. If not, there will be less investment and a 'smaller network'.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/11/04-mcnulty-warns-costs-must-drop.html
 
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1V53

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I'm not sure why you ignored my post Metroland and jumped to the next? I'm trying hard to avoid slanging matches but it's hard when posters selectively reply to points made to them.

Bob Crow is a militant union man, I won't dispute that. However I do feel this country has gone from one extreme (wildcat strikes, walkouts, etc) to one where we all roll over and accept whatever, and then poke the finger at eg the RMT for being militant. By the way I've never been balloted for a strike in several years as a guard.

I am staggered as to how the civil service has gone from increments and 'job for life' to a climate of fear and pay freezes, and they all just accept it ultimately.

I know the state of the country and I know things need to change. However what galls me is there is still massive waste and inefficiency elsewhere (the supply chain, contracts, management etc) whilst the staff at the sharp end are taking the brunt of it.

I have already said there is massive waste and I agree things need addressing. But root and branch means looking at the whole picture.

An example: lots of procurement is through "National Rail Supplies". That to me shouts of someone profiteering. Where you have a sole supplier for even the most rudimentary of items it's not rocket science to realise that's likely to be expensive. In the civil service they have similar, my ex wife used to talk about how expensive simple items were like staples and paper.

If the report at least addressed the wastage elsewhere I would feel less aggrieved. My anger is that he is tackling the easy option, without a detailed analysis (ie pretty much ignoring the situation outside the M25!)
 

Metroland

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I have already said there is massive waste and I agree things need addressing. But root and branch means looking at the whole picture.

Agreed, Staff pay and DOO are just a tiny part of it. I suppose it's a controversial subject, so was always bound to get an airing.
 

1V53

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I'd also suggest, without demanding to know what you or anyone else does, to remember the old adage 'no one is indispensable'. Now think about your job. Do you work hard, feel you do something worthwhile? Would you feel a bit threatened if someone was paid a lot of money to write a report basically saying why you should be made redundant?

Once again remember 'no one is indispensable'

Now put yourself in my shoes. My job is like your job - the world would carry on without us. But in my shoes wouldn't you defend your role?

I think that's why the need to find out what you do, so we can turn the tables on you and try to make you see how unpleasant it is to have some members on this forum belittling our role and saying we are dispensable.

Once again: no one is indispensable. It could be you next. Do you just walk away or do you put up a fight?
 

Metroland

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I actually try very hard to inform people that the railways (and the jobs involved with them) are a lot more involved, a lot less straightforward, a lot more skilled, a lot more difficult than many people given them credit for.

There is a lot if myths about the railways, and I spend a long time putting them right, especially around train punctuality, safety and so on.

I think for the most part people's rates of pay are more or less about right for what they do, especially the S&T, Signalling, Pway and most of the train crew grades.

I fully sympathise with guards, but as it's been pointed out, even if it was decided that DOO would be the norm, with the amount of resignalling, train alterations and other things it's a 20 year project. By that time, most people here would either be retired or promoted.

There is no one person more pro-rail than me, I make a point of NOT buying a car and travelling by train. I want to see the railway succeed. But there are underlying issues with costs, which everyone knows must be addressed. With a rising crisis elsewhere, such as the NHS, there simply isn't going to be the money and the railways must become less dependent on government.

I can only apologise for coming into conflict with people on sensitive matters such as this (which sprung out of the A-B reopening in Scotland) and strikes in general. You must as a group be concerned at the image of the railways as a whole?

I would prefer a much better PR effort by the railways to address some of the issues, and a much more grown up approach by the unions - the trouble is they are far too political for their own good at times, even if that causes sustained long term damage. And that is not in the best interests of railwaymen.

It is 100% understandable to be looking inside the bubble of the railways, or the short term. But there are long term crisis growing, and this could either be the beginnings of the second golden age of rail, or the period where it fails to modernise and miss the boat.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I actually try very hard to inform people that the railways (and the jobs involved with them) are a lot more involved, a lot less straightforward, a lot more skilled, a lot more difficult than many people given them credit for.

There is a lot if myths about the railways, and I spend a long time putting them right, especially around train punctuality, safety and so on.

I think for the most part people's rates of pay are more or less about right for what they do, especially the S&T, Signalling, Pway and most of the train crew grades.

I fully sympathise with guards, but as it's been pointed out, even if it was decided that DOO would be the norm, with the amount of resignalling, train alterations and other things it's a 20 year project. By that time, most people here would either be retired or promoted.

There is no one person more pro-rail than me, I make a point of NOT buying a car and travelling by train. I want to see the railway succeed. But there are underlying issues with costs, which everyone knows must be addressed. With a rising crisis elsewhere, such as the NHS, there simply isn't going to be the money and the railways must become less dependent on government.

I can only apologise for coming into conflict with people on sensitive matters such as this (which sprung out of the A-B reopening in Scotland) and strikes in general. You must as a group be concerned at the image of the railways as a whole?

I would prefer a much better PR effort by the railways to address some of the issues, and a much more grown up approach by the unions - the trouble is they are far too political for their own good at times, even if that causes sustained long term damage. And that is not in the best interests of railwaymen.

It is 100% understandable to be looking inside the bubble of the railways, or the short term. But there are long term crisis growing, and this could either be the beginnings of the second golden age of rail, or the period where it fails to modernise and miss the boat.
So can we call a truce then? Or will it go on and on?


 

1V53

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I think we are at a truce stage, hopefully.

I think most of us realise we need to modernise, but there is deep suspicion of governments and authority.

Those in lower paid (sub 15-20k) council jobs were assured they would not be subject to pay freezes for two years but even part timers have found they have been. I know times are hard but sorry it cannot be right to freeze their pay while inflation is over 5%. That is simply not sustainable. And meanwhile the fat cats take more.

I would be open to fair and reasonable discussion on across the board root and branch reasonable thought out streamlining, but that is not what this report is actually about.
 

j0hn0

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I'd also suggest, without demanding to know what you or anyone else does, to remember the old adage 'no one is indispensable'. Now think about your job. Do you work hard, feel you do something worthwhile? Would you feel a bit threatened if someone was paid a lot of money to write a report basically saying why you should be made redundant?

Once again remember 'no one is indispensable'

Now put yourself in my shoes. My job is like your job - the world would carry on without us. But in my shoes wouldn't you defend your role?

I think that's why the need to find out what you do, so we can turn the tables on you and try to make you see how unpleasant it is to have some members on this forum belittling our role and saying we are dispensable.

Once again: no one is indispensable. It could be you next. Do you just walk away or do you put up a fight?

Would you like a response from someone working in the private sector? ok then...

YOU WALK AWAY AND FIND ANOTHER JOB!

Oh that's right, you can't walk away because you know what the benefits in working in the public sector are.

As I have said in many other discussions, the one thing that made your job better than anyone else's is no longer there. What is that?

JOB SECURITY

Public sector workers needs to wise up and start playing the game themselves instead of getting militant unions to do all their dirty work.

If you can't negotiate a pay rise, go somewhere that you can, or learn how to do it yourself. Bringing the country to a standstill will not help matters.

We all know that guards/drivers/station staff etc mostly do a great job and enjoy what they are doing, but the holders of the purse strings will see that as a way to dump on you. An example for you from my sector....

I am a Software Test Manager, I work in london and I command a fairly decent salary for my experience. However, if I was to work for say, a computer games manufacturer where playing games all day was my job, the pay is more than halved. The industry know this and therefore the pay is reflected.

Considering that rail employees are now mostly from private companies, do you not think that it is fair that they are subject to the same market pressures as those in the private sector?
 
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