CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[aleph_0]

Ahhh ok tidy, still a way to go yet then.
I assume that even if they cleared 5 cars today there wouldn’t be much change as there are still lonely overcrowded 2 cars. So if there was a spare 2 car they’d send it as a 4 or if there was a spare 3 they’d send the 3 instead.
But I suppose If there’s a few more 3 cars to come that could make quite a difference to the state of things.

Probably not a massive difference, but even with the same number of units, the 5-car sign off will improve flexibility in planning and on the day.

At the moment, 4 cars means either 2,3 or 2+2. But this has a knock-on effect - any diagram that couples to travel to Manchester as to be 2-car. Or if you have a diagram finishing somewhere, that then forms a coupled Marches service next day, that has to be 2-car too.

Plus, if there's any disruption, there's little room to strengthen services to rebalance.

3-car on Swanline yesterday was mentioned above. We don't know why that choice was made, over the Marches service, but it seems likely that the root cause of this will be length restrictions.

A good example today is the 1312 arrival at Manchester from Swansea, which couples to the overnight stabler, forming the 1330 departure. All those diagrams have to be 2-car.

 

[Jez]

Probably not a massive difference, but even with the same number of units, the 5-car sign off will improve flexibility in planning and on the day.

At the moment, 4 cars means either 2,3 or 2+2. But this has a knock-on effect - any diagram that couples to travel to Manchester as to be 2-car. Or if you have a diagram finishing somewhere, that then forms a coupled Marches service next day, that has to be 2-car too.

Plus, if there's any disruption, there's little room to strengthen services to rebalance.

3-car on Swanline yesterday was mentioned above. We don't know why that choice was made, over the Marches service, but it seems likely that the root cause of this will be length restrictions.

A good example today is the 1312 arrival at Manchester from Swansea, which couples to the overnight stabler, forming the 1330 departure. All those diagrams have to

One of the 3 car Swanline's yesterday started as the 0659 from Pembroke Dock so I guess it depends what is in Carmarthen the night before. But sometimes there are some odd allocations with 2 cars on some services that should have priority for 3 cars. No diagrams other than the likes of the Conwy Valley and Heart of Wales (the latter wont be getting 197s anyway) is sufficient with a 2 car allocated. Each diagram will have busy and quieter times at some point of the day. So it is a difficult decision.

There clearly arent enough 197s at the moment with the 5 x 3 cars missing as otherwise some Ebbw Vale and Maesteg's wouldnt be Sprinters.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Probably not a massive difference, but even with the same number of units, the 5-car sign off will improve flexibility in planning and on the day.

At the moment, 4 cars means either 2,3 or 2+2. But this has a knock-on effect - any diagram that couples to travel to Manchester as to be 2-car. Or if you have a diagram finishing somewhere, that then forms a coupled Marches service next day, that has to be 2-car too.

Plus, if there's any disruption, there's little room to strengthen services to rebalance.

3-car on Swanline yesterday was mentioned above. We don't know why that choice was made, over the Marches service, but it seems likely that the root cause of this will be length restrictions.

A good example today is the 1312 arrival at Manchester from Swansea, which couples to the overnight stabler, forming the 1330 departure. All those diagrams have to be 2-car.

Ohh yes !! A very good point that I’d forgotten about.

No diagrams other than the likes of the Conwy Valley and Heart of Wales (the latter wont be getting 197s anyway) is sufficient with a 2 car allocated.

There’s plenty of Cambrian ones too.
There almost certainly will be diagrams that need a 2 car as they involve being coupled up to something else for most of the days working.

There clearly arent enough 197s at the moment with the 5 x 3 cars missing as otherwise some Ebbw Vale and Maesteg's wouldnt be Sprinters.

Not for the current uses no. But there are in theory enough for their intended number of workings. once the 197’s can stop covering for other fleets that will help.

 

[nwales58]

CAF have definitely overpromised 197 availability.

That’s what liquidated damages are for in the contract … but when the contractor seriously underbids after you hit the cap on damages, their problem becomes your problem 100%.

So TfW will be scrabbling around for more stock forever, with the Government saying no more money.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Currently on the 13:10 ex Crewe to Milford Haven. Single 197008… it’s cosy to say the least.

EDIT: Now stuck at Shrewsbury as the toilet is broken. Sensibly bailed out to wait for the 4 car an hour later.

 

[Krokodil]

That’s what liquidated damages are for in the contract … but when the contractor seriously underbids after you hit the cap on damages, their problem becomes your problem 100%.

And with the late delivery the damages cap was hit long ago.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So TfW will be scrabbling around for more stock forever, with the Government saying no more money.

Will they though ? There will be 77 197’s, 11 231’s, 24 756’s, 36 398’s 5 230’s and 7 (possibly 8) MK4 sets.
That should be absolutely plenty to provide the services TFW plan to provide with good capacity too. If there was a surge of passengers or a hope to increase services further then yes possibly they would be stuck.

 

[Krokodil]

Will they though ? There will be 77 197’s, 11 231’s, 24 756’s, 36 398’s 5 230’s and 7 (possibly 8) MK4 sets.
That should be absolutely plenty to provide the services TFW plan to provide with good capacity too. If there was a surge of passengers or a hope to increase services further then yes possibly they would be stuck.

But if CAF fail to deliver the ambitious promises made about 197 availability and the 230s finally get binned off then you have a problem.

And surges of passengers happen several times a week during the summer.

 

[Cambrian359]

But if CAF fail to deliver the ambitious promises made about 197 availability and the 230s finally get binned off then you have a problem.

And surges of passengers happen several times a week during the summer.

Also the original future long term plans involved the class 170 fleet staying(32 carriages = 12 trains) now the 197s and a handful of 153s will doing their duties instead.(I’m not sure on the exact number of 153s staying)

 

[Lurcheroo]

But if CAF fail to deliver the ambitious promises made about 197 availability and the 230s finally get binned off then you have a problem.

Any idea what availability CAF have specified ?
Yeah the 230’s could be a serious problem.

Off topic but I studied and worked as an electrical engineer before I joined the railway. Having seen the ‘engineering’ that was done on the 230’s in regards to the batteries and their cooling, I wonder how it ever got signed off to be honest.
The parts of the plan that I have seen seems reasonable but time will tell if the whole things fixes the issues or not.

If it was to be a flop and they decided to bin the 230’s then I don’t know what would be best to be honest. More 197’s would be costly but would be the simplest in terms of being able to maintain them at Chester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2024 ==

Also the original future long term plans involved the class 170 fleet staying(32 carriages = 12 trains) now the 197s and a handful of 153s will doing their duties instead.(I’m not sure on the exact number of 153s staying)

I believe it’s 8 standard units and 4 or 5 active travel units.
The original plan also only had 3 MK4 sets. Instead of the 7 we have now.
The MK4’s alone is 35 coaches, 40 if we get an 8th set. Plus the 153’s. So slightly more than the original plan ? Unless there’s other changes I can’t think of.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Also the original future long term plans involved the class 170 fleet staying (32 carriages = 12 trains) now the 197s and a handful of 153s will doing their duties instead.(I’m not sure on the exact number of 153s staying)

I believe it’s 8 standard units and 4 or 5 active travel units.
The original plan also only had 3 MK4 sets. Instead of the 7 we have now.
The MK4’s alone is 35 coaches, 40 if we get an 8th set. Plus the 153’s. So slightly more than the original plan ? Unless there’s other changes I can’t think of.

Indeed; when the 170s were planned to be staying there would have been no 153s staying and only 3 mark 4 rakes (with those being only 4 coaches each). Actually, in the longer-term the 170s were intended for Pembrokeshire and Heart Of Wales so Cambrian359 is correct that it is 197s and 153s that directly replace the 170s but those 197s will be released by the extra mark 4s (with 8x5-coach mark 4 rakes being expected at the time the decision to drop the 170s was made). If we're counting coaches, that's 28 more mark 4 passenger vehicles than the original plan, almost as many as the outgoing 170s even before you count the 153s. In terms of units, each mark 4 diagram on the Manchesters releases two 197s, since the Manchesters were orignally to all be 5-car 197s.

 

[Topological]

But all this neglects the fact that the Mk4 diagrams necessarily cannot use all 8 MK4s so it is not a direct flexible alternative to the same number of 197 carriages.

Likewise, since the Mk4 are unreliable, having 8 is necessary just to run 4/5 diagrams and hence the replacement 197 number is also lower.

Further, with a Mk4 diagram only replacing a single 197 to Holyhead, there are just 7/9 197s freed up.

Indeed; when the 170s were planned to be staying there would have been no 153s staying and only 3 mark 4 rakes (with those being only 4 coaches each). Actually, in the longer-term the 170s were intended for Pembrokeshire and Heart Of Wales so Cambrian359 is correct that it is 197s and 153s that directly replace the 170s but those 197s will be released by the extra mark 4s (with 8x5-coach mark 4 rakes being expected at the time the decision to drop the 170s was made). If we're counting coaches, that's 28 more mark 4 passenger vehicles than the original plan, almost as many as the outgoing 170s even before you count the 153s. In terms of units, each mark 4 diagram on the Manchesters releases two 197s, since the Manchesters were orignally to all be 5-car 197s.

Would be nice if some more 197s could be ordered. However, we know that will not happen.

 

[Lurcheroo]

If we're counting coaches, that's 28 more mark 4 passenger vehicles than the original plan, almost as many as the outgoing 170s even before you count the 153s.

Yep so we should be ‘quids’ in with this plan.

But all this neglects the fact that the Mk4 diagrams necessarily cannot use all 8 MK4s so it is not a direct flexible alternative to the same number of 197 carriages

No fleet is planned to use all units / sets in a day so thats not really relevant. It’s based on percentages for the most part so you’d only benefit if the rounding suited.

Likewise, since the Mk4 are unreliable, having 8 is necessary just to run 4/5 diagrams and hence the replacement 197 number is also lower.

The 197’s are equally not showering themselves in glory over their maintenance and availability as it’s stands. It’s just less obvious with a larger fleet but we are seeing 150’s and 153’s going to Manchester last week to cover for the 197’s.

The hope for the MK4’s is 8 sets, 6 diagrams, 1 spare and 1 on planned maintenance.

Further, with a Mk4 diagram only replacing a single 197 to Holyhead, there are just 7/9 197s freed up

But the MK4 was already planned to go to Holyhead so isn’t replacing anything.

Would be nice if some more 197s could be ordered. However, we know that will not happen.

They’re a lot of cash and at present, no reason to believe they will be needed.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a few more middle cars made and turning some of the 2 cars into 3 cars though! In fact possibly all bar the Cambrian ones (although I’d love them to be 3 cars as well in honesty but Mach depot can not support 3 cars).
And it could be a way of keeping work at Newport once they start running out of orders.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yep so we should be ‘quids’ in with this plan.


No fleet is planned to use all units / sets in a day so thats not really relevant. It’s based on percentages for the most part so you’d only benefit if the rounding suited.


The 197’s are equally not showering themselves in glory over their maintenance and availability as it’s stands. It’s just less obvious with a larger fleet but we are seeing 150’s and 153’s going to Manchester last week to cover for the 197’s.

The hope for the MK4’s is 8 sets, 6 diagrams, 1 spare and 1 on planned maintenance.


But the MK4 was already planned to go to Holyhead so isn’t replacing anything.

They’re a lot of cash and at present, no reason to believe they will be needed.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a few more middle cars made and turning some of the 2 cars into 3 cars though! In fact possibly all bar the Cambrian ones (although I’d love them to be 3 cars as well in honesty but Mach depot can not support 3 cars).
And it could be a way of keeping work at Newport once they start running out of orders.

As well as ensuring key routes like Marches and North Wales coast ect always have enough capacity.

 

[Jez]

Also the original future long term plans involved the class 170 fleet staying(32 carriages = 12 trains) now the 197s and a handful of 153s will doing their duties instead.(I’m not sure on the exact number of 153s staying)

Whats interesting about that is the 150s were meant to stay the longest out of the old fleet. Now of course the 153s and probabaly the 158s will outlast them. In the case of the 153s some of them are staying long term.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Is it me or is the air conditioning rather weak on the 197s? Both sets I had today were absolutely roasting inside (although they were all quite crowded, other stock are normally able to cool it down).

It didn’t make for a pleasant trip from Crewe to Cardiff.

 

[Krokodil]

Is it me or is the air conditioning rather weak on the 197s? Both sets I had today were absolutely roasting inside (although they were all quite crowded, other stock are normally able to cool it down).

It didn’t make for a pleasant trip from Crewe to Cardiff.

It's not just you. At least 158s have hopper windows that can be opened when it fails.

 

[Western 52]

Is it me or is the air conditioning rather weak on the 197s? Both sets I had today were absolutely roasting inside (although they were all quite crowded, other stock are normally able to cool it down).

It didn’t make for a pleasant trip from Crewe to Cardiff.

The aircon can be variable. I was on 197019 this evening. It was hotter and more humid than my greenhouse.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It's not just you. At least 158s have hopper windows that can be opened when it fails.

The aircon can be variable. I was on 197019 this evening. It was hotter and more humid than my greenhouse.

It’s partly why I decided to bail out of the 1310 ex Crewe at Shrewsbury. (197008)

I didn’t feel like standing all the way to Cardiff, and the train was just far too hot inside.

The four car after it (197015 and 049) wasn’t too bad, but it was still very warm.

Having never been on a 197 before, my opinion is that they are pretty meh.

The seats aren’t the best and it feels more like a commuter train than a long distance express train.

One thing that lets it down is that massive catering food unit thing in one of the coaches, especially if it’s a two car where you could put a ton of extra seats.

 

[Rhydgaled]

But all this neglects the fact that the Mk4 diagrams necessarily cannot use all 8 MK4s so it is not a direct flexible alternative to the same number of 197 carriages.

Likewise, since the Mk4 are unreliable, having 8 is necessary just to run 4/5 diagrams and hence the replacement 197 number is also lower.

Further, with a Mk4 diagram only replacing a single 197 to Holyhead, there are just 7/9 197s freed up.

At the time the decision was made, wasn't the plan to have two mark 4 diagrams doing Cardiff-Holyhead work? There were certainly three trains each way with first class advertised between Holyhead and Cardiff in at least one of the PDF timetables TfW have issued since the change of plan was announced. Therefore, the additional five sets on Swansea-Manchester would have been expected to cover either four or five of the diagrams previously planned to be covered by 197s. Thus, it would have been 8 (if four diagrams) or 10 (if five diagrams) class 197s released by the additional mark 4 sets.

Would be nice if some more 197s could be ordered.

No it wouldn't. Far too many were ordered in the first place.

it feels more like a commuter train than a long distance express train.

That's because a class 197 is more like a commuter train than a long distance express train. That wouldn't be too much of a problem if they were bi-mode and could be used on the south Wales Metro, but the routes which are going to need diesel for longer (though still not quite long enough to give such a large fleet of diesel-only things a 35 year life unless we come nowhere near to hitting net-zero by 2050) could do with something much more like a long-distance express train.

One thing that lets it down is that massive catering food unit thing in one of the coaches, especially if it’s a two car where you could put a ton of extra seats.

It's not all that big actually. The seat plan shows the catering area opposite the bike space to be 2460mm long and the seat pitch (spacing) in the ordinary airline-style seating to be 820mm. Since 820x3 = 2460 that means it takes up exactly the same amount of space as six ordinary airline-style seats. Stick a table bay (1840mm) or priority seats (870mm seat pitch) in there and you wouldn't even get six extra seats. You might get a small toilet in there instead of seats (the one in the middle coach is shown as taking up 2751mm, so a tad too big, but that includes two equipment boxes (one is probably the water tank for the toilet but I don't know if the other one is also to do with the toilet or not)).

 

[Caaardiff]

197124 now at Chester, should be the next to enter service.

Was this the latest to be delivered? Almost a month ago. Any sign of any more?

 

[SeaKing]

Was this the latest to be delivered? Almost a month ago. Any sign of any more?

It was returned to Crewe, speaking to member of the training team last week 119,121 & 123 should all be available for service in the next 2 weeks. will see.

 

[sd0733]

Was this the latest to be delivered? Almost a month ago. Any sign of any more?

It made it to Chester and coupled to another 197 and was promptly despatched back to Crewe South Yard and don't think it's moved since so not entirely sure what happened to it. Others have been on mileage accumulation so shouldn't be far off.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Is it me or is the air conditioning rather weak on the 197s? Both sets I had today were absolutely roasting inside (although they were all quite crowded, other stock are normally able to cool it down).

It didn’t make for a pleasant trip from Crewe to Cardiff.

It's not just you. At least 158s have hopper windows that can be opened when it fails.

The aircon can be variable. I was on 197019 this evening. It was hotter and more humid than my greenhouse.

I see in our internal social media that a number of staff are complaining about the same problem. We will see what comes of it.

One thing that lets it down is that massive catering food unit thing in one of the coaches, especially if it’s a two car where you could put a ton of extra seats.

As Rhydgaled has point out it’s 6 extra seats at best. How many situations are there where every seat is full and there is no more than 6 standing ? Not many. If there’s standing it should be 3 or more coaches.

I always thought the plan was for the catering area to allow a better catering provision. I can not find a definite and clear answer as to what or how it will be used. Speaking with the catering teams, they’ve got no idea either it seems.
There is a fresh water tank in there and TFW now have the new trolleys that fit in the cupboard and can connect directly to the tank. Some sort of microwave to provide basic warm food would be much better.

It was returned to Crewe, speaking to member of the training team last week 119,121 & 123 should all be available for service in the next 2 weeks. will see.

It made it to Chester and coupled to another 197 and was promptly despatched back to Crewe South Yard and don't think it's moved since so not entirely sure what happened to it. Others have been on mileage accumulation so shouldn't be far off.

That would be really good. Every extra unit counts at this point it seems.

 

[Chorley Cake]

Does anybody have a list of what’s currently at Crewe South Yard, and where they are specifically ? Are they visible from the main line (I guess the line to Nantwich).

 

[50002Superb]

Is anyone able to provide an update as to which 197s are still in storage please?

 

[BillStampy]

Is anyone able to provide an update as to which 197s are still in storage please?

The following 3 coach 197s are currently still waiting to enter service: 119, 121, 123, 124 and 126. All the Cambrian units are either still being produced, in storage or testing.

 

[50002Superb]

The following 3 coach 197s are currently still waiting to enter service: 119, 121, 123, 124 and 126. All the Cambrian units are either still being produced, in storage or testing.

Sorry, I’m a bit out of touch. Which ones are the Cambrian ones?

Also are all the 197/0s working now?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Sorry, I’m a bit out of touch. Which ones are the Cambrian ones?

21 197/0s (2 cars) are to be fitted with ETCS so that they can operate on the Cambrian line.

I believe 197003 and then 197022 - 041 will have ETCS.

 

[BillStampy]

Sorry, I’m a bit out of touch. Which ones are the Cambrian ones?

Also are all the 197/0s working now?

From my knowledge, 003, 022-041.
All other 197/0s are working in service.