Voyagers to XC & Yellow Front Ends

[SteveP29]

Just watching Geoff Marshall's Avanti 805 review and 2 things struck me.

He says the Voyagers are to be decanted to XC to create extra capacity. Are XC intending to make 10 car trains that don't need two sets of staff as they do now when they join two units?

Also, watching this and also having watched his video from Kings Cross talking about new Open Access operators and it reminded me, seeing the Hitachi trains for Hull Trains and Lumo of something I've meant to ask for a long time.
Why don't new trains compulsorily have yellow fronts any more (with the exception of LNER & GWR)?

Apologies, I have been recommended to link to the video:
Newcastle Avanti Class 805 Trains

 

[skyhigh]

Why don't new trains compulsorily have yellow fronts any more (with the exception of LNER & GWR)?

Because the standards no longer require it if the unit has compliant lighting. It is optional though hence LNER, GWR, Northern, TfW etc specified a livery with a yellow front.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just watching Geoff Marshall's Avanti 805 review and 2 things struck me.

He says the Voyagers are to be decanted to XC to create extra capacity. Are XC intending to make 10 car trains that don't need two sets of staff as they do now when they join two units?

No evidence of anything other than pairs of units. XC are getting 12 additional 5 car units, up from the original 7 intended to replace the HSTs. No lengths of individual units will change.

This thread started out about refurbishment, but also includes everything about the transfer of units from Avanti to XC:

XC Voyager Refurbishment

In Modern Railways January 2024. Beacon Rail have gone out to tender for XC Voyager refurbishment with 3 companies interested in the work (Alstom probably one of them). Also mentions Beacon Rail considering batteries for the voyagers but ruled out on cost. Not much other detail, but some good...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Trainman40083]

Just watching Geoff Marshall's Avanti 805 review and 2 things struck me.

He says the Voyagers are to be decanted to XC to create extra capacity. Are XC intending to make 10 car trains that don't need two sets of staff as they do now when they join two units?

Also, watching this and also having watched his video from Kings Cross talking about new Open Access operators and it reminded me, seeing the Hitachi trains for Hull Trains and Lumo of something I've meant to ask for a long time.
Why don't new trains compulsorily have yellow fronts any more (with the exception of LNER & GWR)?

No, Cross Country will carry on running pairs of units. I wonder if they will be mainly 8 cars, with 5 car units on other diagrams....There are some stations where 9 or 10 cars won't fit on the platform.

 

[IanXC]

No, Cross Country will carry on running pairs of units. I wonder if they will be mainly 8 cars, with 5 car units on other diagrams....There are some stations where 9 or 10 cars won't fit on the platform.

8 or 9 will be planned and typical. 10 cars causes a whole host of problems with platform lengths across their routes.

 

[Lurcheroo]

TfW

Minor but TFW’s new fleet don’t have yellow ends.
Some of The 398’s do but I believe they intend to sort the lighting issue to make them complaint.
Shame really as I think the yellow ends are iconic and very recognisable.
Also on the 197’s if the high level headlight becomes defective then we’re limited to a maximum speed of 20mph

 

[Trainman40083]

8 or 9 will be planned and typical. 10 cars causes a whole host of problems with platform lengths across their routes.

Even 8 or 9 coaches will not solve much. As many of us know, most passengers only board through one set of doors, then realise they have a reservation for another coach /part of the train and try to move heavy luggage down the train or sit in a different reserved seat, causing fun and games later. Maybe the coach letters on the side of the coach need to be BIGGER

 

[Lurcheroo]

Even 8 or 9 coaches will not solve much. As many of us know, most passengers only board through one set of doors, then realise they have a reservation for another coach /part of the train and try to move heavy luggage down the train or sit in a different reserved seat, causing fun and games later. Maybe the coach letters on the side of the coach need to be BIGGER

Whilst having been a conductor l get your point, Having 8 or 9 coaches will definitely make a huge difference. It is a shame that they’re not 8 or 9 coach sets as opposed to double sets.

I’m not familiar really, Do XC do much portion working?

 

[Trainman40083]

Whilst having been a conductor l get your point, Having 8 or 9 coaches will definitely make a huge difference. It is a shame that they’re not 8 or 9 coach sets as opposed to double sets.

I’m not familiar really, Do XC do much portion working?

Portion working? As it in the train splits, say at Reading or Leeds? I would think only to get a unit somewhere. Happened to me on a Edinburgh train, at Leeds, where the train split. Good job I was only going to Leeds

 

[WAB]

Whilst having been a conductor l get your point, Having 8 or 9 coaches will definitely make a huge difference. It is a shame that they’re not 8 or 9 coach sets as opposed to double sets.

I’m not familiar really, Do XC do much portion working?

They’ll often dump a unit somewhere, say Newcastle on a Plymouth-Edinburgh run. This is often badly-publicised or changed at the last minute, with the resultant chaos. Don’t think they portion work to multiple depots, though.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Portion working? As it in the train splits, say at Reading or Leeds? I would think only to get a unit somewhere. Happened to me on a Edinburgh train, at Leeds, where the train split. Good job I was only going to Leeds

Yes essentially, so TFW running a 4 car to Machynlleth where the train divides with the front Portion going to Aberystwyth and the rear going to Pwllheli.

They’ll often dump a unit somewhere, say Newcastle on a Plymouth-Edinburgh run. This is often badly-publicised or changed at the last minute, with the resultant chaos. Don’t think they portion work to multiple depots, though.

Oh right ok. Yeah I’ve been involved in plenty of random set swaps and been given info last minute which you can’t do much with and then the chaos that ensues.

 

[bnc2018]

Even 8 or 9 coaches will not solve much. As many of us know, most passengers only board through one set of doors, then realise they have a reservation for another coach /part of the train and try to move heavy luggage down the train or sit in a different reserved seat, causing fun and games later. Maybe the coach letters on the side of the coach need to be BIGGER

While they're at it they could choose a more logical system for naming their carriages. The most recent crosscountry service I took went:
G - I - J - L + A - B - C - D - F

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that if you have a ticket for coach G, that would be near coach F

 

[Lurcheroo]

While they're at it they could choose a more logical system for naming their carriages. The most recent crosscountry service I took went:
G - I - J - L + A - B - C - D - F

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that if you have a ticket for coach G, that would be near coach F

Very difficult to have fixed coach Letters and then alway have them in the same order on multiple sets coupled together.

 

[py_megapixel]

Very difficult to have fixed coach Letters and then alway have them in the same order on multiple sets coupled together.

They don't have fixed coach letters though - they're displayed electronically!

 

[Towers]

While they're at it they could choose a more logical system for naming their carriages. The most recent crosscountry service I took went:
G - I - J - L + A - B - C - D - F

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that if you have a ticket for coach G, that would be near coach F

This is to do with two things; firstly which end First Class is, which can vary depending on where a particular unit has been, and then the variation of 4 or 5 car units. GWR for example also have missing letters on their 9 and 10 car (pair of 5 car) trains, it’s to ensure that reserved coaches are always of the same layout regardless of which length of train turns up. There is a logic, obscure as it might seem!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2024 ==

They don't have fixed coach letters though - they're displayed electronically!

Yes but each coach is always the same letter. The internal seating layout isn’t the same in every coach, owing to various design features of the train. If you just randomly apply a letter to a coach it will mess up all the seat reservations as the seats won’t be in the same places!

 

[swt_passenger]

While they're at it they could choose a more logical system for naming their carriages. The most recent crosscountry service I took went:
G - I - J - L + A - B - C - D - F

It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to assume that if you have a ticket for coach G, that would be near coach F

They cannot guarantee which way round a particular unit will be, because of reversals on route, in this case at Reading. They will have probably formed the two units up at Eastleigh, both in reverse formation, so that the original set up had the lower set of letters on the front unit for its first departure, ie it must have been FDCBA-LJIG leaving Bournemouth (or Southampton).
Clearly you can’t swap the front/rear unit designation round at Reading, (as people are already on board and in their reserved seats), just to make it look neater on platform displays.

 

[Mike Machin]

It's about time that trains were long enough and frequent enough to be able to just decide on the spur of the moment to travel, purchase a ticket on the app and rock-up at the station to get a comfortable seat as a matter of course without all this muppetry! No wonder the motorways are so busy.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It's about time that trains were long enough and frequent enough to be able to just decide on the spur of the moment to travel, purchase a ticket on the app and rock-up at the station to get a comfortable seat as a matter of course without all this muppetry! No wonder the motorways are so busy.

Totally agreed!
I don’t think it can be a ‘turn up and go’ service (generally no more than 15 min intervals between trains) everywhere, it just wouldn’t be feasible.
But it should be as simple as, open the one unified rail travel app, put where you want to go, have it display you your ticket options (much more simplified than now), purchase and off you go without worry of having to stand for hours.

I do genuinely think TFW are heading towards that, they’ve got a way to go but once all the new units are in service I think they could be operating a really good service.

 

[fgwrich]

This is to do with two things; firstly which end First Class is, which can vary depending on where a particular unit has been, and then the variation of 4 or 5 car units. GWR for example also have missing letters on their 9 and 10 car (pair of 5 car) trains, it’s to ensure that reserved coaches are always of the same layout regardless of which length of train turns up. There is a logic, obscure as it might seem!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2024 ==


Yes but each coach is always the same letter. The internal seating layout isn’t the same in every coach, owing to various design features of the train. If you just randomly apply a letter to a coach it will mess up all the seat reservations as the seats won’t be in the same places!

They cannot guarantee which way round a particular unit will be, because of reversals on route, in this case at Reading. They will have probably formed the two units up at Eastleigh, both in reverse formation, so that the original set up had the lower set of letters on the front unit for its first departure, ie it must have been FDCBA-LJIG leaving Bournemouth (or Southampton).
Clearly you can’t swap the front/rear unit designation round at Reading, (as people are already on board and in their reserved seats), just to make it look neater on platform displays.

On this point, this is another area where I feel the ex Avanti units have the advantage thanks to Virgin - the replacement of the rubbish LCD screens on the side of each vehicle with very bright White LEDS does seem to make a difference and people do seem to look at them (mostly) for coach letters. Most of the native units screens are now either fogged up, just about working but not particularly visible or broken and displaying junk.

 

[SteveP29]

Thanks for all your answers everyone, appreciated.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Whilst having been a conductor l get your point, Having 8 or 9 coaches will definitely make a huge difference. It is a shame that they’re not 8 or 9 coach sets as opposed to double sets.

I’m not familiar really, Do XC do much portion working?

1V64 (1307 Edinburgh to Plymouth) detaches and reverses at Gloucester, rear set on arrival goes on to Plymouth, front goes empty to Central Rivers.

 

[Thunderer]

1V64 (1307 Edinburgh to Plymouth) detaches and reverses at Gloucester, rear set on arrival goes on to Plymouth, front goes empty to Central Rivers.

From the December timetable, I think this will change. The split at Gloucester will see one unit run through to Plymouth (as is the case now) but the second unit that currently runs ECS back to “Voyagerland” will run through to Cardiff Central. There is also a planned service in the other direction between Cardiff Central & Edinburgh…I think this will be the 09:45 off Cardiff?

 

[voyagerdude220]

They don't have fixed coach letters though - they're displayed electronically!

I think Cross Country doesn't help by insisting on lettering the front set of double Voyagers A-F, even if it would make more sense having A on the rear so it runs in ascending order.

E.g. F D C A ± L J I G

In this scenario I'd label the extreme rear carriage as A so it would be

L J I G + F D C A.

(Fair enough if the formation splits etc. requiring certain letters to be on a specific Voyager)

 

[swt_passenger]

I think Cross Country doesn't help by insisting on lettering the front set of double Voyagers A-F, even if it would make more sense having A on the rear so it runs in ascending order.

E.g. F D C A ± L J I G

In this scenario I'd label the extreme rear carriage as A so it would be

L J I G + F D C A.

(Fair enough if the formation splits etc. requiring certain letters to be on a specific Voyager)

As as been pointed out already, the coach lettering is fixed to the orientation of the first class, and at any given time 50% of XC Voyagers will be randomly running in the reverse orientation. Even if A-F happens to be correct on leaving the first station of the day, it will clearly be the other way round once a reversal has happened on route. Some reversals must happen as at Reading, some are at signallers option eg SW to Manchester can take two routes into New St, only one of which reverses the formation.

 

[voyagerdude220]

As as been pointed out already, the coach lettering is fixed to the orientation of the first class, and at any given time 50% of XC Voyagers will be randomly running in the reverse orientation. Even if A-F happens to be correct on leaving the first station of the day, it will clearly be the other way round once a reversal has happened on route. Some reversals must happen as at Reading, some are at signallers option eg SW to Manchester can take two routes into New St, only one of which reverses the formation.

I'm well aware of how things work on the Cross Country network. I was referring to when you have double Voyagers as per my example and the letters could be in a much more logical arrangement if they didn't insist on the front set always being A to F.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm well aware of how things work on the Cross Country network. I was referring to when you have double Voyagers as per my example and the letters could be in a much more logical arrangement if they didn't insist on the front set always being A to F.

But even then it can’t ever be right for the whole route. if a train drops a portion for reduced capacity at some point, they have a decision to make which end gets the low letters. Is it always going to be the unit travelling the furthest distance? Seems to me any change to orientation or order you try to make won’t see the day out, it’s all too random.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that any suggestions/ideas/proposals, such as to change the way anything should be done, belong in the Speculative Discussion section, please.

Thanks

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

From the December timetable, I think this will change. The split at Gloucester will see one unit run through to Plymouth (as is the case now) but the second unit that currently runs ECS back to “Voyagerland” will run through to Cardiff Central. There is also a planned service in the other direction between Cardiff Central & Edinburgh…I think this will be the 09:45 off Cardiff?

This leads me onto a question. Can the Voyagers’ Train Management System (TMS) cope with a journey that involves terminating in two different directions? I know IET’s can’t handle it and require a new headcode to be loaded fresh which in turn makes it a ‘separate service’, even though it’s not. We all know the TMS on the Voyagers is ancient, but despite the advances in technology I wouldn’t be surprised if they could cope with it.

For clarification for everyone else what I’m referring to is where two trains carry on to two different destinations and not having a rear portion terminating short.

 

[virgintrain1]

This leads me onto a question. Can the Voyagers’ Train Management System (TMS) cope with a journey that involves terminating in two different directions? I know IET’s can’t handle it and require a new headcode to be loaded fresh which in turn makes it a ‘separate service’, even though it’s not. We all know the TMS on the Voyagers is ancient, but despite the advances in technology I wouldn’t be surprised if they could cope with it.

For clarification for everyone else what I’m referring to is where two trains carry on to two different destinations and not having a rear portion terminating short.

Short answer yes.

Although one set would display one destination, the other set the other destination.

 

[Towers]

Travelling on XC would appear to be confusing as a matter of course. The train formation itself, the often completely haphazard catering provision which might be available only in one half of a double set or only for a certain stretch of the journey, and the all too often woefully poor announcements made by the crew, all combine to lead to a general air of chaos on quite a few journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

This leads me onto a question. Can the Voyagers’ Train Management System (TMS) cope with a journey that involves terminating in two different directions? I know IET’s can’t handle it and require a new headcode to be loaded fresh which in turn makes it a ‘separate service’, even though it’s not. We all know the TMS on the Voyagers is ancient, but despite the advances in technology I wouldn’t be surprised if they could cope with it.

For clarification for everyone else what I’m referring to is where two trains carry on to two different destinations and not having a rear portion terminating short.

The IETs are a capable of displaying a different destination on the two halves of a ten car set; Swansea/Carmarthen is an example. It’s particularly complex in that case as the set not only splits but also reverses en route at Swansea, so the rear portion leaving London is going further than the front.