CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[vicbury]

As someone who wants to criticise the 197s normally I've been happy with their air con the last couple of days.

It's definitely feeling cooler inside, I wonder if they changed a setting. Someone more in the know can answer that though.

I could still complain about the ride today but they've definitely changed something to make them more comfortable

Yes my experience on Monday was that the air con was doing well too, so maybe some sort of software change or update as been applied (I hope!)

 

[BillStampy]

Yes my experience on Monday was that the air con was doing well too, so maybe some sort of software change or update as been applied (I hope!)

Better hope it can withstand the 20 degrees weather! I'll probably be travelling to Newport on Saturday so hopefully it'll be nice!

 

[Western 52]

Yes my experience on Monday was that the air con was doing well too, so maybe some sort of software change or update as been applied (I hope!)

I've had a few runs on 197s in the last couple of weeks, including 197012 today. Yes, it does seem the ride and aircon are a bit better, even when the unit was rather full.

 

[Lurcheroo]

As someone who wants to criticise the 197s normally I've been happy with their air con the last couple of days.

It's definitely feeling cooler inside, I wonder if they changed a setting. Someone more in the know can answer that though.

I could still complain about the ride today but they've definitely changed something to make them more comfortable

Well that’s great to hear about the aircon.
I get free travel being staff and our 2 year old loves the beach. We can’t wait to go this year. Aberdovey or Barmouth are our usuals but the thought of going on the train on an overcrowded, sweaty and roasting 158 is a deal breaker when I have a very nice 3 series with Ice cool AC to drive instead.
So I sometimes feel bewildered that so many people are happy to go on the train and pay for it.
So I really am looking forward to the 197’s coming. I can put up with the rougher ride if the temperature is reasonable.
All I want after that is 4 coaches, which they’re planning on doing on 2 services A day so another win.

Interesting, I wonder what they could have changed to improve the ride, but if they have then that’s absolutely fantastic!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2024 ==

Yes my experience on Monday was that the air con was doing well too, so maybe some sort of software change or update as been applied (I hope!)

Better hope it can withstand the 20 degrees weather! I'll probably be travelling to Newport on Saturday so hopefully it'll be nice!

I've had a few runs on 197s in the last couple of weeks, including 197012 today. Yes, it does seem the ride and aircon are a bit better, even when the unit was rather full.

All super great to hear. We’re stuck with them through their faults so I Really hope they can be made that but better.

 

[Sam 76]

Have been on a 197 for the first time this morning and I must say I’m very impressed. Although only a 15 min journey they are very comfy and a big improvement on the 195s at northern in my opinion

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have been on a 197 for the first time this morning and I must say I’m very impressed. Although only a 15 min journey they are very comfy and a big improvement on the 195s at northern in my opinion

Glad to hear you liked it!
No doubt someone will be along soon to tell you ‘wait until your on it for 2 hours and you won’t be able to walk after’. Just ignore them if you liked it

 

[Krokodil]

Sorry guys, going to run back a ‘classic’ with this.
It’s by no means roasting outside but the sun is shining and it’s warm.
How are people fishing the aircon ?
The 158’s on the Cambrian, as usual, are roasting even in this weather.

105's saloon coped well despite being on two engines. The back cab aircon was unavailable though, it had been load shed to conserve power. 26°C in there. Good job the train wasn't too busy and I could stay in the saloon.

 

[Lurcheroo]

105's saloon coped well despite being on two engines. The back cab aircon was unavailable though, it had been load shed to conserve power. 26°C in there. Good job the train wasn't too busy and I could stay in the saloon.

Ahh, I have heard from some Salop guards that a 3 car with an engine out will lose the rear cab aircon.

I’ve done that a few times on the VERY rare occasion that a 158 has semi- working AC in one saloon haha.

 

[Sam 76]

Glad to hear you liked it!
No doubt someone will be along soon to tell you ‘wait until your on it for 2 hours and you won’t be able to walk after’. Just ignore them if you liked it

Ahaa I’m used to that. I am probably one of the few that like the 777s on my daily commute. I did find the seats comfy and would be fine on them for a much longer period of time. Each to their own though we are all different

 

[Cambrian359]

Glad to hear you liked it!
No doubt someone will be along soon to tell you ‘wait until your on it for 2 hours and you won’t be able to walk after’. Just ignore them if you liked it

Spent 4 hours on them last week (Machynlleth - Cardiff return) while the initial sitting in the seat after just coming off a 158 was quite an eye opener I did find if I sit upright properly into the seat I was fine for the 2 hours down to Cardiff, however the slightest bit of slouching and you really feel the hardness!
Coming back up was fine as I was lucky to get a standard plus seat!

 

[Envoy]

Saturday June 22 2024 - Can anyone explain how come a Holyhead to Cardiff service this morning gets 6 coach 197 and then they all return from Cardiff to Holyhead? This happens whilst many of the the Manchester services are still only 2 coaches.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Saturday June 22 2024 - Can anyone explain how come a Holyhead to Cardiff service this morning gets 6 coach 197 and then they all return from Cardiff to Holyhead? This happens whilst many of the the Manchester services are still only 2 coaches.

Shrewsbury to Manchester direct is not yet cleared for more than 4 car 197s. They are planning to run further proving runs to clear for 5 and 6 car.

 

[sd0733]

Saturday June 22 2024 - Can anyone explain how come a Holyhead to Cardiff service this morning gets 6 coach 197 and then they all return from Cardiff to Holyhead? This happens whilst many of the the Manchester services are still only 2 coaches.

Simply that Holyhead is cleared for 6 Manchester isn't.
Most of those morning trains from Holyhead split when they get to Cardiff so short forming them as 4 or 5 just leads to a different 2 car later. Until the Shrewsbury-Manchester is cleared for more than 4s this will always be the case unfortunately. Far from ideal and on many trains a worse situation capacity wise than before the 197s came in.

 

[Caaardiff]

Saturday June 22 2024 - Can anyone explain how come a Holyhead to Cardiff service this morning gets 6 coach 197 and then they all return from Cardiff to Holyhead? This happens whilst many of the the Manchester services are still only 2 coaches.

If you're referring to 1V91 that is booked a 3 car. There are 3 2 cars allocated which probably means they are just being sent South and are still allocated to the full diagram but will be changed at some point.
2+2 = 5 again.

 

[sd0733]

Shrewsbury to Manchester direct is not yet cleared for more than 4 car 197s. They are planning to run further proving runs to clear for 5 and 6 car.

Beat me to it!
Manchester won't be cleared for 6 yet as it stands, just 5. There's an update planned for Late this year/early next on the ASDO which may lead to 6s but the current round of proving is for 5 max due to the limitations of the ASDO as it stands.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Beat me to it!
Manchester won't be cleared for 6 yet as it stands, just 5. There's an update planned for Late this year/early next on the ASDO which may lead to 6s but the current round of proving is for 5 max due to the limitations of the ASDO as it stands.

Ah I forgot that part. 5 will be better than now anyway!

 

[sd0733]

If you're referring to 1V91 that is booked a 3 car. There are 3 2 cars allocated which probably means they are just being sent South and are still allocated to the full diagram but will be changed at some point.
2+2 = 5 again.

There's been shortages of 197s in the south for several days now, a couple of north-south services were over-formed yesterday as well as an ecs to balance sets after repairs at Chester so the likelihood is the same is happening again as units are released.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Beat me to it!
Manchester won't be cleared for 6 yet as it stands, just 5. There's an update planned for Late this year/early next on the ASDO which may lead to 6s but the current round of proving is for 5 max due to the limitations of the ASDO as it stands.

The 5 car proving run was quite a while ago, is it getting closer to being signed off ?

 

[sd0733]

The 5 car proving run was quite a while ago, is it getting closer to being signed off ?

AFAIK that was a test run, the proving is still to happen.
That's what I believe the position to be!

 

[Lurcheroo]

AFAIK that was a test run, the proving is still to happen.
That's what I believe the position to be!

Ahhh ok tidy, still a way to go yet then.
I assume that even if they cleared 5 cars today there wouldn’t be much change as there are still lonely overcrowded 2 cars. So if there was a spare 2 car they’d send it as a 4 or if there was a spare 3 they’d send the 3 instead.
But I suppose If there’s a few more 3 cars to come that could make quite a difference to the state of things.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ahhh ok tidy, still a way to go yet then.
I assume that even if they cleared 5 cars today there wouldn’t be much change as there are still lonely overcrowded 2 cars. So if there was a spare 2 car they’d send it as a 4 or if there was a spare 3 they’d send the 3 instead.
But I suppose If there’s a few more 3 cars to come that could make quite a difference to the state of things.

I cannot help feeling that the expected availability of 197s might be unrealistic as this seems to be a common problem across the UK.

But then I wonder how many 197s will be freed up by the introduction of 756s and 398s - That is 60 new units on top of the 197s yet to come into service (mostly for Cambrian). But how many 150s and 158s will be going ?.

 

[BillStampy]

On an absolutely packed and boiling 197048 right now, people were left behind at Pontyclun. The air conditioning isn't working and it's 17 degrees. It's probably about 24 in here. Really not good! People were crowding the doors and some refusing to move. Most did when I asked as I got on though. Would hate to be on this for longer..

 

[Lurcheroo]

I cannot help feeling that the expected availability of 197s might be unrealistic as this seems to be a common problem across the UK.

But then I wonder how many 197s will be freed up by the introduction of 756s and 398s - That is 60 new units on top of the 197s yet to come into service (mostly for Cambrian). But how many 150s and 158s will be going ?.

Can’t say on availability. They are planned covering for multiple fleets though. 756’s, 230’s and some MK4 work.
And then unplanned covering for other fleets too, such as when a planned MK4 isn’t available.

As for the Cambrian, it’s pretty much. Straight swap, 24 158’s for 21 ETCS 197’s. But those 21 197’s will be a bit more ‘contained’ than the 158’s are/were I believe. I’m not exactly sure in the details of how though.
Those units are replacing 34 150’s and 15ish 153’s.
Obviously it’s not quite that simple as 197’s have replaced some of their work such as 150’s on the bidstons.

On an absolutely packed and boiling 197048 right now, people were left behind at Pontyclun. The air conditioning isn't working and it's 17 degrees. It's probably about 24 in here. Really not good! People were crowding the doors and some refusing to move. Most did when I asked as I got on though. Would hate to be on this for longer..

Gosh, that’s not good!
I see it was reported F+S from Llanharen by the conductor and that 2 people were left behind at Pontyclun.
I see people complain about 3 cars being put on Maesteg services but clearly it is needed sometimes !!

At least that route will eventually be 231’s and have good capacity.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As for the Cambrian, it’s pretty much. Straight swap, 24 158’s for 21 ETCS 197’s. But those 21 197’s will be a bit more ‘contained’ than the 158’s are/were I believe. I’m not exactly sure in the details of how though.

In Arriva days I think it was often said that three class 158s were normally booked to visit south Wales (ie. NOT on Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead diagrams), for example on Saturdays I think it was the 06:30 Manchester to Milford Haven and return that was booked 158 as one of the three. So effectively I've always assumed that KeolisAmey's plan was 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 197s replacing 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 158s with the other three class 158s considered to be non-ETCS (although in reality all 24 are ETCS/ERTMS fitted I believe) and replaced by non-ETCS class 197s.

 

[Lurcheroo]

In Arriva days I think it was often said that three class 158s were normally booked to visit south Wales (ie. NOT on Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead diagrams), for example on Saturdays I think it was the 06:30 Manchester to Milford Haven and return that was booked 158 as one of the three. So effectively I've always assumed that KeolisAmey's plan was 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 197s replacing 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 158s with the other three class 158s considered to be non-ETCS (although in reality all 24 are ETCS/ERTMS fitted I believe) and replaced by non-ETCS class 197s.

I get what you’re saying and that would make perfect sense!
With the plan for the hourly mainline service with some additional 4 cars services on both the mainline and coastline (summer only) I do wonder how they will keep enough units on the Cambrian if the diagrams will still involve going to Holyhead.

 

[Jez]

I noticed the 1252 arrival into Cardiff from Carmarthen was a 2 car 197 and full and standing. Meanwhile there were 3 car 197s on Swanline. Im not saying Swanline doesnt deserve 3 cars but it does seem odd that 2 cars are allocated to some West Wales-Cardiff/Manchester.

I did chuckle when my service to Cardiff this morning was going to 'Newport Gwent' following discussion earlier this week about the 197 announcements!

 

[Nick Ashwell]

In Arriva days I think it was often said that three class 158s were normally booked to visit south Wales (ie. NOT on Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead diagrams), for example on Saturdays I think it was the 06:30 Manchester to Milford Haven and return that was booked 158 as one of the three. So effectively I've always assumed that KeolisAmey's plan was 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 197s replacing 21 ETCS/ERTMS class 158s with the other three class 158s considered to be non-ETCS (although in reality all 24 are ETCS/ERTMS fitted I believe) and replaced by non-ETCS class 197s.

I understand how this works but I also feel the plan is essentially unrelated other than the needs of the Cambrian. 90+%of my Cheltenham trains are 197s, whereas at most it was two 158s at most most days. I can't talk for other routes though.

398 introduction is the main problem with both classes of Flirts being ready to go on their routes. Without going too off topic it feels like the 231s are too diesel for what's needed and the 756s are only just getting going on routes that aren't their long term routes.

Did they do the Valley's in the wrong order? It feels like the Rhymney side should have been done first and then you'd be able to restrict 150s to the western side, although I do understand that with the retirement when exams are needed there may not have been enough

197s seem stretched onto services they were never meant to operate, and I feel that once the full fleet is operational things will be much better

 

[BillStampy]

I noticed the 1252 arrival into Cardiff from Carmarthen was a 2 car 197 and full and standing. Meanwhile there were 3 car 197s on Swanline. Im not saying Swanline doesnt deserve 3 cars but it does seem odd that 2 cars are allocated to some West Wales-Cardiff/Manchester.

I would have said same with Maestegs and Ebbw Vales but after my experience earlier today just for the short journey between Llanharan and Cardiff, not the best for 2 coaches on some of those either..

197s seem stretched onto services they were never meant to operate, and I feel that once the full fleet is operational things will be much better

Just other stuff not going to plan, 231s in the wrong place. So we're about 8 diagrams over the expected amount, 5 on Maestegs and like 3 on Ebbw Vale or something like that. Full fleet won't make too much of a difference, only a few extra 197/1s and 197s for the Cambrian which shouldn't go South or elsewhere anyway.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I noticed the 1252 arrival into Cardiff from Carmarthen was a 2 car 197 and full and standing. Meanwhile there were 3 car 197s on Swanline. Im not saying Swanline doesnt deserve 3 cars but it does seem odd that 2 cars are allocated to some West Wales-Cardiff/Manchester.

I did chuckle when my service to Cardiff this morning was going to 'Newport Gwent' following discussion earlier this week about the 197 announcements!

Always a tough one. There is usually a good reason for it but I can’t say what it is in this case.

I understand how this works but I also feel the plan is essentially unrelated other than the needs of the Cambrian. 90+%of my Cheltenham trains are 197s, whereas at most it was two 158s at most most days. I can't talk for other routes though.

398 introduction is the main problem with both classes of Flirts being ready to go on their routes. Without going too off topic it feels like the 231s are too diesel for what's needed and the 756s are only just getting going on routes that aren't their long term routes.

Did they do the Valley's in the wrong order? It feels like the Rhymney side should have been done first and then you'd be able to restrict 150s to the western side, although I do understand that with the retirement when exams are needed there may not have been enough

197s seem stretched onto services they were never meant to operate, and I feel that once the full fleet is operational things will be much better

Obviously 231’s are in service but 756’s are a little way off.
From what I’ve seen internally the conversion course has been mostly developed but not rolled out to crew yet. The conversion course is much quicker than the full 231 training course so won’t take so long to get everyone trained up.
There are 24 756’s to come which will allow some of the 197’s to be free’d up such as the Maesteg ones as they will go onto the routes the 231’s are working and the 231’s will go to their intended routes.
Exactly how many 197’s it will free up I can’t tell.
But with those few released, plus 5 more 3 cars to come into service it will definitely make a difference to many services.
There is also a 230 fix going on, so if they can be brought up to a standard to cover their 3 diagrams that will release 2 more 2 car 197’s (as one diagram is covered by a 230 each day.

398’s are quite a long way off yet unfortunately. I think these will mostly replace 150’s, 153’s and facilitate frequency improvements but may cause a cascade and release more 197’s.

There is also potential for an 8th MK4 set which would again allow 197’s to provide more capacity else where.

There’s a long way to go overall but once every fleet is in operation things should be a lot better. And it’s been a damn long time coming

 

[Krokodil]

CAF have definitely overpromised 197 availability.