Travelcard + PAYG query

[yorkie]

Someone claims that " I got on the over ground Kensal Rise but the oyster reader wasn't working properly. It peeped for some and didnt for others. The station wasnt manned and I got on the train." - they were on a Z1/2 Travelcard and going to Stratford. So, as they are valid for that journey, they had no particular need to touch in.

Is this credible, and what could be happening with that reader?

Also, are London Overground (LO) stations left unmanned? I understand the policy is that they are always manned, however if staff are on a break or off sick, does the station continue to be open but with barriers left open (where applicable - I know the rule is that if staff are not manning barriers they have to be left open - where they exist!)

Anyway, fine so far, but the customer then interchanged at Stratford, from LO North London Line to an NXEA train heading toward Shenfield. Questions: Are there any convenient readers en-route? How practicable is it for someone to touch in while making this interchange?

They then got to their destination in Zone 4 and had the opportunity to touch on an exit reader. Had they done so, would the system have assumed - despite them not touching in - that they travelled from Zone1/2 and charge correctly? I am assuming so but would like confirmation.

They asked an RPI a question "will charge me the maximum fare as kensal rise was acting up?" before touching the reader. I am sure the answer is "no" because a maximum fare only applies where you have touched in (outside your validity of a Travelcard) and then do not touch out. I do not see how a maximum fare could apply, am I right?

The RPI then prevented them touching out and read that the card had not been touched in and issued a PF, allegedly denying the existence of Kensal Rise.

I believe if they had simply touched out they would have been charged correctly.

Can an RPI act in this way?

What are the chances of a successful appeal?

 

[sonic2009]

Do we know what time this person was travelling through Kensal Rise?

 

[Daniel]

There are pink and yellow readers on the LOROL platforms at Stratford. They are in a convinient position for customers interchaging from/to National Rail services. As these platform validators validate both entry and exit, if the passenger had touched their card it would have touched IN.

If the passenger had touched out at the Z4 station without touching their card at Stratford, they would have been charged a maximum fare. If the passenger had touched their card on a yellow reader at Stratford and again at their Z4 station they would have been charged the appropriate single.

I would query whether a PF could be issued where the passenger has boarded at a location with reduced ticketing issuing facilities, (as, realisticly, you're surely trying to purchase your ticket if you're trying to touch in), but then again I'd also question why the passenger didn't seek assistance at the first reasonable opportunity, (I'd say at Stratford).


If the passenger had been allowed to touch out they would have incurrec a maximum fare. This is because, as their card hadn't been validated anywhere en route, the platform validator at the Z4 station would assume they were entering, and it would log as a touch IN. As this journey would then not be completed, it would incur a maximum fare.

 

[MikeWh]

Someone claims that " I got on the over ground Kensal Rise but the oyster reader wasn't working properly. It peeped for some and didnt for others. The station wasnt manned and I got on the train." - they were on a Z1/2 Travelcard and going to Stratford. So, as they are valid for that journey, they had no particular need to touch in.

Is this credible, and what could be happening with that reader?

As a regular Oyster user I'd be sceptical about this. I'm not saying it can't be true, but my gut feeling is that it's unlikely. There is one possibility that would be credible. If the gates were locked open with some in each direction then only the readers with the gates locked away from you (ie as they would normally open) will work. The other readers should have a red light to indicate that they are not working. This may be a limitation of the software, but in my view it is a confusing situation.

Also, are London Overground (LO) stations left unmanned? I understand the policy is that they are always manned, however if staff are on a break or off sick, does the station continue to be open but with barriers left open (where applicable - I know the rule is that if staff are not manning barriers they have to be left open - where they exist!)

Some LO stations are left unmanned at times and yes, the gates would then be locked open.

Anyway, fine so far, but the customer then interchanged at Stratford, from LO North London Line to an NXEA train heading toward Shenfield. Questions: Are there any convenient readers en-route? How practicable is it for someone to touch in while making this interchange?

Yes there are validators here so they could touch in.

They then got to their destination in Zone 4 and had the opportunity to touch on an exit reader. Had they done so, would the system have assumed - despite them not touching in - that they travelled from Zone1/2 and charge correctly? I am assuming so but would like confirmation.

No, it would charge a reduced maximum fare equivalent to the zone 1-4 combined NR+TfL fare applicable at the time of touch out.

They asked an RPI a question "will charge me the maximum fare as kensal rise was acting up?" before touching the reader. I am sure the answer is "no" because a maximum fare only applies where you have touched in (outside your validity of a Travelcard) and then do not touch out. I do not see how a maximum fare could apply, am I right?

No, a maximum fare applies for either an unmatched touch in or an unmatched touch out. The system doesn't assume anything other than the worst case scenario. The only concession is that the maximum fare is reduced if you have a travelcard stored on the Oyster.

The RPI then prevented them touching out and read that the card had not been touched in and issued a PF, allegedly denying the existence of Kensal Rise.

I believe if they had simply touched out they would have been charged correctly.

Can an RPI act in this way?

What are the chances of a successful appeal?

Had the journey been a single train then I'd hope that he might have made some effort to check what might be happening at Kensal Rise, but as it clearly involved a change of trains with an opportunity to touch in while doing so, I'd say yes, the RPI can act in this way. And I'd not hold out much chance of a successful appeal either.

There are pink and yellow readers on the LOROL platforms at Stratford. They are in a convinient position for customers interchaging from/to National Rail services. As these platform validators validate both entry and exit, if the passenger had touched their card it would have touched IN.

Surely only the yellow ones validate entry and exit? The pink ones are for interchange where you are already touched in? What would happen if you touched a pink validator while out of the system?

 

[Mike395]

Surely only the yellow ones validate entry and exit? The pink ones are for interchange where you are already touched in? What would happen if you touched a pink validator while out of the system?

I would have thought it would treat it as an entry or just double-beep saying it's invalid (surely would make sense for it to treat the touch as an entry, as people in a rush, especially at somewhere like Stratford, might just see an Oyster validator and attempt to touch in, especially as it's a cross-platform interchange from the Central to NR).

 

[FGWman]

They then got to their destination in Zone 4 and had the opportunity to touch on an exit reader. Had they done so, would the system have assumed - despite them not touching in - that they travelled from Zone1/2 and charge correctly? I am assuming so but would like confirmation.

No. It would have been an exit with no corresponding entry. You would have been charged the maximum fare. When travelling outside your zones you must always touch in at the start of the journey and touch out at the end otherwise you may be liable for a penalty fare - as happened here.

They can appeal but would need to provide some evidence that the reader was not working. Also it is your responsibility to make sure you have touched in. As you state in the op the user was aware there was a problem with the reader and should have resolved the problem before travelling.

 

[Daniel]

Surely only the yellow ones validate entry and exit? The pink ones are for interchange where you are already touched in? What would happen if you touched a pink validator while out of the system?

I was referring to the yellow readers, (I did say there were both yellow and pink validators).

I must admit that I do not know how a pink reader would react/impact your journey if you touched it first.

 

[313103]

Kensal Rise Station is manned all the time from 05.45 until 20.30 by LOROL staff and by STM secruity Guards at other times (is a KPI) so stations are manned so the company doesnt get fined. The Ticket office is located on the westbound side of the station. Kensal Rise is in zone 2. Kensal Rise does not have barriers due to the layout of the station. There are 2 Ticket Machines one on either side of the station both of these have oyster readers, as well as that there are two oyster readers again on both sides of the station. Kensal Rise station is not often that busy on entry that a person can know whether some were ok and some were not. To do that you would have to stand there and watch this take place. Most people when they hear that the machine has done it incorrectly will try again, and if that doesnt do it they go to another reader and try there.

The zone 1 & 2 would not be valid for the entire journey as Stratford is in zone 3. The validity would have expired at the previous point Hackney Wick. At which point the person could of jumped out and touched the oyster card reader there as it is on the platform itself and would only take 10 seconds.

As stated there are 4 pink oyster readers at Stratford on platforms 1 & 2 alone, let alone other oyster readers that are dotted around the station.

Without trying to put blame on the person it seems to me that the person was trying their luck and got caught out.

The RPI has an oyster reader and can tell you the last 10 journeys and transactions you have done.. I not sure on NEGs rules on issuing a penalty fare. So i cant comment as to whether the RPI was right or wrong.

What would help is the time of day this took place. As an employee of London Overground i know how busy or not Kensal Rise is.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are 2 Ticket Machines one on either side of the station both of these have oyster readers, as well as that there are two oyster readers again on both sides of the station...

But for the purposes of a discussion about difficulties with validating a card you cannot include a 'reader' on a TVM; these do not allow you to touch in or out.

 

[313103]

But for the purposes of a discussion about difficulties with validating a card you cannot include a 'reader' on a TVM; these do not allow you to touch in or out.

Ok i am sorry i didn't know that (not trained in revenue) so sorry that it implied that it was ok.

So the question could be asked why didn't the person access the oyster reader on the opposite platform and at the same time inform the member of station staff that the one on the Eastbound platform is not working properly.

 

[Mojo]

I have seen standalone validators out of action on a number of occasions. They are displaying a yellow light but not reading any cards, even to reject them, just nothing happens. I am not aware of them reading some people's cards and not others. The only instance of this I believe happening would be if the persons card failed and is thus unreadable.

 

[bb21]

No. It would have been an exit with no corresponding entry. You would have been charged the maximum fare. When travelling outside your zones you must always touch in at the start of the journey and touch out at the end otherwise you may be liable for a penalty fare - as happened here.

So what happens if you decided originally to travel to somewhere like Hackney Wick (Zone 2) and then decide en route that you need to travel further for whatever reason? Do you have to jump out the train at Hackney Wick, touch in, and then be delayed by 15 minutes? I thought the whole point about smart ticketing is that this kind of thing does not happen and the correct fare is automatically calculated.

In OP's case, I would assume that the worst case scenario, i.e. a Zone 2-4 TfL+NR single, should be charged. Is there really any reason to charge a PF? As far as I understand, that's what a maximum fare is there for, the worst case scenario.

 

[MikeWh]

So what happens if you decided originally to travel to somewhere like Hackney Wick (Zone 2) and then decide en route that you need to travel further for whatever reason? Do you have to jump out the train at Hackney Wick, touch in, and then be delayed by 15 minutes? I thought the whole point about smart ticketing is that this kind of thing does not happen and the correct fare is automatically calculated.

This is why ideally you are encouraged to touch in and out everywhere, even with a travelcard. At least you don't now have the possibility that you could need an OEP. If you haven't touched in and change your mind about how far you are going then yes, you do have to get out to touch in while still valid.

In OP's case, I would assume that the worst case scenario, i.e. a Zone 2-4 TfL+NR single, should be charged. Is there really any reason to charge a PF? As far as I understand, that's what a maximum fare is there for, the worst case scenario.

He might have boarded at Knockholt (z6), travelled to Lewisham (z2), changed to the DLR to Stratford, so that's now a zone 3-6 fare. Or boarded at Chesham (z9), changed at Wembley Park to Stratford - zone 3-9 required now. Do you see the problem.

Anyway, the rules state that you must have a validated card or a ticket before you start your journey. The maximum fare is there to protect revenue when no RPIs are around, but if you meet one then you are travelling without a ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

So what happens if you decided originally to travel to somewhere like Hackney Wick (Zone 2) and then decide en route that you need to travel further for whatever reason? Do you have to jump out the train at Hackney Wick, touch in, and then be delayed by 15 minutes? I thought the whole point about smart ticketing is that this kind of thing does not happen and the correct fare is automatically calculated.

In OP's case, I would assume that the worst case scenario, i.e. a Zone 2-4 TfL+NR single, should be charged. Is there really any reason to charge a PF? As far as I understand, that's what a maximum fare is there for, the worst case scenario.

You must touch in at the beginning of your journey according to the TfL CoC (6.6.1); if you have done so you will always be charged the correct fare. Yes, this is a bit silly but I believe it was necessary to get the TOCs to agree to Oyster.

The National Rail Conditions of Use for Oyster on NR (here) haven't been updated since the OEP has been scrapped, but a PF was allowed if an OEP was not set - I believe not touching in now constitutes the same thing.

 

[Clip]

The zone 1 & 2 would not be valid for the entire journey as Stratford is in zone 3. The validity would have expired at the previous point Hackney Wick. At which point the person could of jumped out and touched the oyster card reader there as it is on the platform itself and would only take 10 seconds.

Just to correct Yorkie on this one they say they had a zone 2-3 travelcard

Someone claims that " I got on the over ground Kensal Rise but the oyster reader wasn't working properly. It peeped for some and didnt for others. The station wasnt manned and I got on the train." - they were on a Z1/2 Travelcard and going to Stratford. So, as they are valid for that journey, they had no particular need to touch in.

Hello all,

I have a zone 2 and 3 travel card and took a bus 302 to Kensal Rise the final stop. .

 

[RJ]

This is applicable to the time the incident happened, which was quite some time ago (sometime around March 2011) and reported on another website.

Going on what I've read so far, I believe the Penalty Fare should be paid.

One holding a Zone 2 - 3 Travelcard going to an NR station needs to load an OEP prior to travel and touch in at a station within those Zones. Travelling to Zone 4 would incure a Zone 4 Only single charge.

One holding a Zone 2 - 3 Travelcard, not touching in within their Zones but touching out in Zone 4 will incur an Exit Charge. This would possibly a Zone 1 - Watford single, minus a Zone 2 - 3 Single, with consideration to maximum time limit and the time of day the errant validation was made.

Discretion should be shown if there was a complete failure of validation equipment. IIRC there are at least two readers at Kensal Rise, one by the entrance at the top of the steps and one by the accessible entrance on the westbound platform. OP, did you try both of them? If the one you tried was working for others as you say, you may not be able to use this as a defence.

I do resent the accusation of corruption however. I've had a less than pleasant experience with a NXEA Revenue Protection where the officer was unduly tenacious with issuing a PF. I appealled and eventually the Penalty Fare was cancelled and I received a full refund. If you were not liable to pay a Penalty Fare and you can prove that was the case, you will be able to get your money back.

As a Collector of Penalty Fares, I certainly wouldn't issue a Penalty Fare without just cause. A successfully appealed Penalty Fare is not good for the record and could lead to discipline. In your case, simply using your card to exit Ilford without having an Oyster Extension Permit meant that you were in breach of clause 3.19 of the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services, which can be found on the National Rail website. As stated, this means that you were liable to pay a Penalty Fare and/or be prosecuted. I advise that the Penalty Fare is paid, to prevent charges mounting up and legal proceedings being brought against you.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks to Clip for his post. I've now managed to read the whole story and it somewhat changes my view of the matter. In particular, one aspect causes me concern. The user was allowed to touch out after receiving the penalty fare. This caused a maximum fare to be charged in addition to the PF. Could this be used as a defence when appealing the penalty fare?

Thankfully the user has come back to the original thread and reported that the PF was dropped anyway. I'd still be interested to hear the view of any legal experts on the above question, though.

 

[swt_passenger]

You must touch in at the beginning of your journey according to the TfL CoC (6.6.1); if you have done so you will always be charged the correct fare. Yes, this is a bit silly but I believe it was necessary to get the TOCs to agree to Oyster.

AIUI this is not actually new. The TfL conditions required all Oyster users to touch in and out well before the system was extended to all the TOCs. It was written that way in the T&C when I first had an Oyster card in about 2005.

 

[LexyBoy]

AIUI this is not actually new. The TfL conditions required all Oyster users to touch in and out well before the system was extended to all the TOCs. It was written that way in the T&C when I first had an Oyster card in about 2005.

I don't think there used to be any penalty for failing to touch in with a Travelcard though, which there now is (under certain circumstances). I think you're right about the T&Cs though.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure it is down to the fact that back in the days when a Travelcard/PAYG combination was only really relevant to LU services (including those joint LU/NR routes where PAYG was already valid), the barriers at the vast majority of LU stations sorted out the touch in/out anyway.

So it's fair to say that in most cases the T&C were already automatically enforced by the hardware, and it seems to me both then and now that TfL/LU didn't ever go out looking for the problem on their own services (although it must have been there all along - because there were always ungated ways in such as the DLR via Bank).

 

[yorkie]

This is applicable to the time the incident happened, which was quite some time ago (sometime around March 2011) and reported on another website.

Which website was that? I've not seen the quote in question. Of course the IEP issue is no longer relevant (thank goodness!).

 

[MikeWh]

Which website was that? I've not seen the quote in question. Of course the IEP issue is no longer relevant (thank goodness!).

A quick google shows the topic up on here, on MSE and on CAG. RJ was refering to the CAG version.

 

[yorkie]

OK, I am home now so able to look into it in more detail, and have found the topic.

An interesting quote is "...as you demonstratably failed to pay for your journey before travelling regardless of whether you paid at the end...." is such a statement valid? If they had touched in and out correctly they would have paid at the end, and as they were forced to touch out again, they did pay at the end (more than the correct fare).

 

[MikeWh]

OK, I am home now so able to look into it in more detail, and have found the topic.

An interesting quote is "...as you demonstratably failed to pay for your journey before travelling regardless of whether you paid at the end...." is such a statement valid? If they had touched in and out correctly they would have paid at the end, and as they were forced to touch out again, they did pay at the end (more than the correct fare).

Exactly. You don't pay for the journey at the beginning, only at the end. I'm not convinced that they were forced to touch out again, but if they were that makes it even worse. The regulations say that the penalty fare is £20 (or twice the single fare if greater), not £20 plus an Oyster maximum fare. The RPI was obviously desperate that they didn't touch out before the card was checked. I'd really like to know what effect, if any, touching out just after being issued with a PF might have.

 

[John @ home]

If they had touched in and out correctly they would have paid at the end

Exactly. You don't pay for the journey at the beginning, only at the end.

But there's more than one way of looking at this. It is evident from Oyster PAYG statements that the system works by deductung the appropriate maximum fare at the beginning of a journey then refunding any balance at the end. Could this be the context of "as you demonstratably failed to pay for your journey before travelling regardless of whether you paid at the end"?

 

[MikeWh]

But there's more than one way of looking at this. It is evident from Oyster PAYG statements that the system works by deductung the appropriate maximum fare at the beginning of a journey then refunding any balance at the end. Could this be the context of "as you demonstratably failed to pay for your journey before travelling regardless of whether you paid at the end"?

Possibly, although that is not how I see it. In my view the system takes a security deposit at the beginning and then returns it at the end minus whatever was required to pay for the journey. Now we no longer need OEPs, when starting within your zones you definitely do not pay anything up front.

 

[RJ]

Which website was that? I've not seen the quote in question. Of course the IEP issue is no longer relevant (thank goodness!).

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.u...ng-Out-By-National-Rail-To-Issue-Penalty-Fare.

 

[dcd]

But there's more than one way of looking at this. It is evident from Oyster PAYG statements that the system works by deductung the appropriate maximum fare at the beginning of a journey then refunding any balance at the end. Could this be the context of "as you demonstratably failed to pay for your journey before travelling regardless of whether you paid at the end"?

You definitely get charged as the response I got after writing to Oyster (see quote below). I had gone on to Southwark station to travel to Waterloo. There were delays so I left again touching out and got charged nothing so then Touched in on Waterloo East - walked along the platform and touched out again at the Waterloo end of Waterloo East and was charged for walking along the platform.

Last year, London Underground and Southeastern (which manage Southwark and Waterloo East stations respectively) made some changes to the ticket barrier settings between the two stations, following complaints from season ticket holders who were experiencing some difficulties making the change between the Jubilee line and rail platforms.



As a result of these changes, you were refunded the entry charge (£6.50) in full when passing out of Southwark station but the refund was ‘reversed’ as you entered Waterloo East, as the Oyster system automatically assumed you intended to travel. Because you then touched out at the other end of Waterloo East station without catching a train, the £6.50 was re-adjusted back to the platform charge, capped at 40p.