Network Rail warns it may not be able to maintain the coastal route to Dover indefinitely.

[yorksrob]

As said in the title, page 23 Rail Magazine, June 12 2024 is reporting:

"Network Rail has warned that it may not be able to maintain the coastal route to Dover indefinitely".

Given that this route was maintained through various landslips from construction to the "toe weighing" engineering improvements in the 1950's, is it acceptable that NR is unilaterally saying that it "may have to" abandon the route.

There must surely be more scrutiny of this.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t this just RAIL catching up somewhat belatedly with the Observer’s story posted in the “Landslips thread” a couple of months ago?

…”It’s opened up quite significantly over the last two months or so,” Butcher points out: in the footpath through the shrub, 20cm to 30cm of fresh bare earth is visible against the green of weeds; at sea level, a concrete apron built half a century ago to protect the beachfront from erosion is ruptured again.”

Landslips

The Scunthorpe landslip appears to be in the cutting just West of the station. There is a T3 showing on Traksy.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[jfowkes]

Last year documents were leaked indicating that NR didn't have enough funding: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...in-the-uks-railway-infrastructure-18-04-2023/

It's entirely plausible that particularly vulnerable sections of the network will just go down a spiral of increasing decay and increasing costs until they become untenable to run.

Maybe a new government will recognise the issues and do something about it.

 

[stuu]

Without an unlimited budget what else can they do?

 

[yorksrob]

Isn’t this just RAIL catching up somewhat belatedly with the Observer’s story posted in the “Landslips thread” a couple of months ago?

Last year documents were leaked indicating that NR didn't have enough funding: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...in-the-uks-railway-infrastructure-18-04-2023/

It's entirely plausible that particularly vulnerable sections of the network will just go down a spiral of increasing decay and increasing costs until they become untenable to run.

Maybe a new government will recognise the issues and do something about it.

One would hope that this is more of a warning call to a new Government that funding is needed to protect these stretches.

I'd have hoped that this announcement would have sparked more dissent in Kent !

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think there’s much chance of NR unilaterally closing any route on the basis of it being difficult to maintain. What they’re probably doing is attempting to force the necessary parliamentary decision making.

 

[yorksrob]

Without an unlimited budget what else can they do?

They can do what they did up until the 1950's and rebuild any slips.

They could also review the geology and attempt to find a drainage solution to solve the problem.

Perhaps one of our many Universities could get to it as a matter of national importance.

 

[swt_passenger]

One would hope that this is more of a warning call to a new Government that funding is needed to protect these stretches.

Yes, agreed.

I'd have hoped that this announcement would have sparked more dissent in Kent !

Well perhaps it did, back in March…

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t think there’s much chance of NR unilaterally closing any route on the basis of it being difficult to maintain. What they’re probably doing is attempting to force the necessary parliamentary decision making.

I certainly hope so.

I doubt such a question would even have been posited had the Chunnel not have been here.

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Yes, agreed.

Well perhaps it did, back in March…

My family didn't mention it and they live there.

 

[najaB]

They can do what they did up until the 1950's and rebuild any slips.

Because, of course, land use, the climate and marine conditions are exactly the same now as they were in the 1950s.

They could also review the geology and attempt to find a drainage solution to solve the problem.

And we're back to that unlimited pot of money.

 

[yorksrob]

Because, of course, land use, the climate and marine conditions are exactly the same now as they were in the 1950s.And we're back to that unlimited pot of money.

In the 1950's the obviously thought "ooh deer" we have to do something. We have to do something now.

 

[Towers]

Is this route likely to be a higher or lower priority candidate for funding than Dawlish, I wonder?

 

[jfowkes]

And we're back to that unlimited pot of money.

There's a difference between unlimited and properly costed and funded.

Things cost money to maintain, and turns out if you underfund it for 15 years while also failing to do anything meaningful to combat climate change, they end up costing even more to maintain.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, agreed.

Well perhaps it did, back in March…

Is this route likely to be a higher or lower priority candidate for funding than Dawlish, I wonder?

There's a difference between unlimited and properly costed and funded.

Things cost money to maintain, and turns out if you underfund it for 15 years while also failing to do anything meaningful to combat climate change, they end up costing even more to maintain.

It's the Kent main line.

Admittedly not as critical as Dawlish but still the South Eastern main line.

 

[DelW]

In the 1950's the obviously thought "ooh deer" we have to do something. We have to do something now.

In the 1950s, routes to Dover were critical for cross-channel traffic. Since the Channel tunnel opened, Dover is a much less important destination. As well as the route via Folkestone, it has a route via Canterbury, and a (circuitous) route via Minster.

Closing the Folkestone route would be an inconvenience for a fairly small number of passengers, and potentially a route between Dover and Ashford (and thus HS1) could be maintained by building a short chord between the two lines west of Canterbury at much lower cost than reconstructing the coast route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

It's the Kent main line.

Admittedly not as critical as Dawlish but still the South Eastern main line.

It serves a fairly small seaside town. The remaining ferries are almost entirely connected by road as there are very limited facilities for foot passengers.

 

[HSTEd]

Service appears to be two trains per hour in each direction?
One to victoria and one to St Pancras, is that correct?
Plus peak extras, its not a particularly dense timetable.

EDIT:
I think the Canterbury chord option comes out about 10-12 minutes slower than the direct route for trains coming from Ashford? It might be worth considering considering how much cheaper it would be than Canute-ing the sea.
A seafront line at the base of a cliff is going to cause issues forever.

 

[yorksrob]

In the 1950s, routes to Dover were critical for cross-channel traffic. Since the Channel tunnel opened, Dover is a much less important destination. As well as the route via Folkestone, it has a route via Canterbury, and a (circuitous) route via Minster.

Closing the Folkestone route would be an inconvenience for a fairly small number of passengers, and potentially a route between Dover and Ashford (and thus HS1) could be maintained by building a short chord between the two lines west of Canterbury at much lower cost than reconstructing the coast route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==


It serves a fairly small seaside town. The remaining ferries are almost entirely connected by road as there are very limited facilities for foot passengers.

Service appears to be two trains per hour in each direction?
One to victoria and one to St Pancras, is that correct?
Plus peak extras, its not a particularly dense timetable.

EDIT:
I think the Canterbury chord option comes out about 10-12 minutes slower than the direct route for trains coming from Ashford? It might be worth considering considering how much cheaper it would be than Canute-ing the sea.
A seafront line at the base of a cliff is going to cause issues forever.

Perhaps the citizens of Kent will have to learn to fight the establishment and demand the route is retained.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps the citizens of Kent will have to learn to fight the establishment and demand the route is retained.

Or, accepting that change is inevitable, insist that the money that would be spent fighting the sea is spent on improving the service via alternate routes - be that an increase in frequency or refurbishments to the rolling stock

 

[DelW]

Perhaps the citizens of Kent will have to learn to fight the establishment and demand the route is retained.

I really doubt whether many of the citizens of Kent will care very much, since few of the railway users within the county actually travel between Folkestone and Dover.

 

[yorksrob]

Or, accepting that change is inevitable, insist that the money that would be spent fighting the sea is spent on improving the service via alternate routes - be that an increase in frequency or refurbishments to the rolling stock

Ha ha, Dover to Folkestone via Canterbury is doable but not practical

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I really doubt whether many of the citizens of Kent will care very much, since few of the railway users within the county actually travel between Folkestone and Dover.

I imagine it will be a big scandal.

 

[The Planner]

Indefinitely with an expected time frame or it being a point in time 25-30 years away? Not sure why people are getting their underwear in a twist. Its not closing anytime soon.

 

[DelW]

Ha ha, Dover to Folkestone via Canterbury is doable but not practical

I was suggesting that route for Dover to Ashford and HS1 to London. The Dover to Folkestone travel demand is tiny.

I imagine it will be a big scandal.

There would be a fuss in Dover. The rest of the country won't care.

 

[yorksrob]

Indefinitely with an expected time frame or it being a point in time 25-30 years away? Not sure why people are getting their underwear in a twist. Its not closing anytime soon.

Plant the seed now, the opposition will develop it to their advantage. Cut it down, before it takes root.

I was suggesting that route for Dover to Ashford and London. The Dover to Folkestone travel demand is tiny.


There would be a fuss in Dover. The rest of the country won't care.

It would become a big issue across Kent. Kent is often overlooked as being in the South East in spite of its struggles. This will just emphasise the point

 

[DelW]

It would become a big issue across Kent. Kent is often overlooked as being in the South East in spite of its struggles. This will just emphasise the point

The residents of the rest of Kent rarely if ever have any need to travel between Folkestone and Dover, so won't be much bothered.

Dover is a smallish seaside town which happens to have three separate rail routes to it, for historic reasons. Those reasons have disappeared now the ferries are much fewer, and the remaining ones aren't rail-served anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

The residents of the rest of Kent rarely if ever have any need to travel between Folkestone and Dover, so won't be much bothered.

Dover is a smallish seaside town which happens to have three separate rail routes to it, for historic reasons. Those reasons have disappeared now the ferries are much fewer, and the remaining ones aren't rail-served anyway.

I spent twenty years of my life in Kent. Any closure attempt will be picked up with London Plus/Meridian News or the latest iterations who will be extremely angry to see a main line removed.

 

[paul1609]

The residents of the rest of Kent rarely if ever have any need to travel between Folkestone and Dover, so won't be much bothered.

Dover is a smallish seaside town which happens to have three separate rail routes to it, for historic reasons. Those reasons have disappeared now the ferries are much fewer, and the remaining ones aren't rail-served anyway.

According to the latest ORR figures Dover Priory has just under 900k exits and entries of which 227k are for St Pancras. It ranks 504 of Uk Stations. That puts it on a par with Kidderminster or Newark Northgate.

 

[yorksrob]

According to the latest ORR figures Dover Priory has just under 900k exits and entries of which 227k are for St Pancras. It ranks 504 of Uk Stations. That puts it on a par with Kidderminster or Newark Northgate.

Means nothing.

Dover is officially recognised as a deprived are, and any moves to closure will develop into a s**t storm for whoever's proposing it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Means nothing.

Dover is officially recognised as a deprived are, and any moves to closure will develop into a s**t storm for whoever's proposing it.

You’re posting almost as though closure had already been announced. I don’t think NR have done anything of the sort.

 

[DelW]

I spent twenty years of my life in Kent.

In that time, did you ever have a need to travel between Folkestone and Dover (as opposed to doing so just for the railway interest)?

I have lived or worked in five different locations in Kent, and the only time I've ever visited Dover was on a track-bashing railtour.

 

[yorksrob]

L

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

You’re posting almost as though closure had already been announced. I don’t think NR have done anything of the sort.

Give the buggers an inch, they will take it. We learnt this from Beeching.

In that time, did you ever have a need to travel between Folkestone and Dover (as opposed to doing so just for the railway interest)?

I have lived or worked in five different locations in Kent, and the only time I've ever visited Dover was on a track-bashing railtour.

I grew up in Ashford. We had many occasions to visit Deal and Sandwich (both worth visiting).