Fine for using anytime return ticket with railcard

[My13s]

Hi all, I was wondering if there is any help out there.

I travelled from HUN to LGW open anytime return. I used my network rail card when making the booking. I travelled out on a Saturday hence why i used my network rail card for the discount on the outbound sector. However, on my return journey I was fined £144.80 for not travelling on an off peak train because I used my rail card in the booking. Even though the booking stated could be used for anytime travel and full flexibility. I have appealed twice now but to no avail. Please see pics of my ticket and network rail website for fare description.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jfollows]

When did you travel?

Network Railcard is not generally valid before 10am on weekdays.

EDIT See https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

4.2. Network Railcard discounts apply for travel at or after 10.00 Monday to Friday (excluding Public Holidays) and any time on weekends.  Discounts apply to services in the Network Railcard area only (see network-railcard.co.uk/map).

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:

4.7.1. beyond the station for which your ticket is issued; or
4.7.2. to a destination beyond the area shown on the Network Railcard map (network-railcard.co.uk/map), without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey; or
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket has no time restrictions until it is discounted, at which point the restrictions on the use of the railcard override those on the use of the ticket. A Network Railcard, for the journey in question, cannot be used before 10:00 on Mondays to Fridays.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all, I was wondering if there is any help out there.

I travelled from HUN to LGW open anytime return. I used my network rail card when making the booking. I travelled out on a Saturday hence why i used my network rail card for the discount on the outbound sector. However, on my return journey I was fined £144.80 for not travelling on an off peak train because I used my rail card in the booking. Even though the booking stated could be used for anytime travel and full flexibility. I have appealed twice now but to no avail. Please see pics of my ticket and network rail website for fare description.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I assume you travelled to GTW (Gatwick Airport), not LGW, which is Langwathby which is in Cumbria!

What time did you travel back from Gatwick Airport?

Can you upload a copy of the notice with your personal details removed? It will help us understand why it was issued.

 

[Gaelan]

I’d be curious as to other members’ thoughts here: could NRE’s explicit statement that the ticket being purchased has “no time restriction” form part of the contract here, similarly to the argument frequently made about tickets sold with an itinerary?

 

[jfollows]

I’d be curious as to other members’ thoughts here: could NRE’s explicit statement that the ticket being purchased has “no time restriction” form part of the contract here, similarly to the argument frequently made about tickets sold with an itinerary?

No, because a railcard has its own terms and conditions which you accept by use, and which Haywain has observed above.
I have a Two Together Railcard and I am aware that I can't use it before 09:30 on weekdays, and have used it to discount an All Line Rover in the past knowing and observing this.

 

[The exile]

I’d be curious as to other members’ thoughts here: could NRE’s explicit statement that the ticket being purchased has “no time restriction” form part of the contract here, similarly to the argument frequently made about tickets sold with an itinerary?

Being pedantic, the ticket itself is valid, however if it hasn’t reached 10 o’clock the railcard isn’t- so you are travelling without a valid railcard.

 

[Haywain]

Deleted!

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d be curious as to other members’ thoughts here: could NRE’s explicit statement that the ticket being purchased has “no time restriction” form part of the contract here, similarly to the argument frequently made about tickets sold with an itinerary?

This has come up before, and I agree that it is very, very unclear - and should possibly be written on the ticket. However I don't anticipate that argument will work to appeal a PF.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Robert Page has been sacked as manager of the Welsh national team.

Something else to put in the appeal perhaps:

 

[My13s]

This was the fine I received.

 

[AlterEgo]

PF says "no ticket" - incorrect. You did present a ticket, and the Penalty Fare is not valid as a result. They have recorded the wrong reason for issue.

 

[jfollows]

So 09:37 at Huntingdon on Friday 10 May.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

As far as I understand the NRE website uses a journey planner based system so OP can only generate that price by specifically selecting a return time after the end of network rail card restriction time

 

[jfollows]

As far as I understand the NRE website uses a journey planner based system so OP can only generate that price by specifically selecting a return time after the end of network rail card restriction time

And, conversely, if the 07:19 from Gatwick Airport to Huntingdon had been selected it would have shown that the discounted ticket wasn’t valid.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Also where exactly was your train when you were issued the penalty fare?

 

[Wallsendmag]

What is shown when you press the info icon next to the Railcard?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately as others have pointed out your Network Railcard states it cannot be used for travel before 10:00 - this is stated on the Railcard. There might be a very technical reason as to why the Penalty Fare might not be valid eg incorrect signage at Gatwick Airport or incorrect reason codes used but I suggest an appeal for these reasons needs to be written using a legalistic form of words.

For future reference, an Anytime Return from Huntingdon to Gatwick Airport is poor value if either journey takes place at the weekend. I'd have bought:

For the Outward journey at the weekend a railcard discounted Super Off Peak Day Single £19.70
For the Return journey an undiscounted Anytime Day Single £44.80
Total £64.50
This undercuts the undiscounted Anytime Return which costs £89.60 which is what most websites, ticket offices, ticket machines will try to sell.

If the OP had waited until 10:00 to make their return journey then they could've purchased a railcard discounted Off Peak Day Single costing £29.40 making the total cost £49.10 which is cheaper than the discounted ticket they did purchase.

 

[My13s]

I had selected open return as I wasn’t sure the time my flight would get into the airport and didn’t want to miss the train if delayed or have to wait There were 2 options when booking an Off Peak Return and Anytime time return. I paid the extra money for the anytime as it stated full flexibility. As the railcard was added before purchase then I would like to think it would highlight this issue or not allow the anytime extra money option as this seems to taking money under false pretences.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately as others have pointed out your Network Railcard states it cannot be used for travel before 10:00 - this is stated on the Railcard. There might be a very technical reason as to why the Penalty Fare might not be valid eg incorrect signage at Gatwick Airport or incorrect reason codes used but I suggest an appeal for these reasons needs to be written using a legalistic form of words.

For future reference, an Anytime Return from Huntingdon to Gatwick Airport is poor value if either journey takes place at the weekend. I'd have bought:

For the Outward journey at the weekend a railcard discounted Super Off Peak Day Single £19.70
For the Return journey an undiscounted Anytime Day Single £44.80
Total £64.50
This undercuts the undiscounted Anytime Return which costs £89.60 which is what most websites, ticket offices, ticket machines will try to sell.

If the OP had waited until 10:00 to make their return journey then they could've purchased a railcard discounted Off Peak Day Single costing £29.40 making the total cost £49.10 which is cheaper than the discounted ticket they did purchase.

Thank you, for the advice. Will definitely be doing this the next time. You can imagine my surprise at being fined for doing what I thought was the right thing.

 

[jfollows]

I had selected open return as I wasn’t sure the time my flight would get into the airport and didn’t want to miss the train if delayed or have to wait There were 2 options when booking an Off Peak Return and Anytime time return. I paid the extra money for the anytime as it stated full flexibility. As the railcard was added before purchase then I would like to think it would highlight this issue or not allow the anytime extra money option as this seems to taking money under false pretences.

When you bought the railcard you read and implicitly accepted its terms and conditions.

Legally, I don’t see how you argue otherwise.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had selected open return as I wasn’t sure the time my flight would get into the airport and didn’t want to miss the train if delayed or have to wait There were 2 options when booking an Off Peak Return and Anytime time return. I paid the extra money for the anytime as it stated full flexibility. As the railcard was added before purchase then I would like to think it would highlight this issue or not allow the anytime extra money option as this seems to taking money under false pretences.

You are always assumed to know your own railcard restrictions. The 1000 restriction has been in place for decades. Of course back when all tickets were bought at offices, if bought early you got used to them being rubber stamped “not valid before 10.00“, or “restrictions advised”.

 

[Hadders]

There is an issue here for ticket selling websites. This is what you see on Thameslink's website when purchasing a Network Railcard discounted ticket and selecting 'open return'.

While I stand by my earlier comments about the conditions of the Network Railcard this isn't exactly clear - many would say it's misleading. There really should be something displayed in the 'Open return' section saying that the ticket cannot be used before 10:00 on weekdays.

 

[AlterEgo]

PF says "no ticket" - incorrect. You did present a ticket, and the Penalty Fare is not valid as a result. They have recorded the wrong reason for issue.

This is a valid ground for appeal, btw - the notice does not give the proper grounds and hence does not comply with the Regulations.

 

[alistairlees]

I have to say that in general the rail industry handles the inherent contradiction between railcards with time restrictions and tickets with no time restrictions very poorly, and in a sort of "gotcha" way. It really must be improved. At present it is very customer-unfriendly.

 

[rs101]

I've just been playing with this on the National Rail site (new version). It doesn't make any attempt to communicate the Network Railcard restrictions - if you pick a time when the railcard doesn't apply, it doesn't discount the ticket and (in the click through details, just says 'Railcard not applied'). Doesn't say why it's not applied.
If you select a time when the railcard is valid, this is the detail screen.

The 'More information about this ticket' section ( https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/sor/ ) clearly says "Anytime fares are fully flexible walk-up tickets with no restrictions on when you can travel." and makes no mention at all of the need to check railcard validity.

On the final review screen (before being redirected to a vendor) it mentions the railcard, so would be the sensible place to put a warning about the railcard validity period.
If I click through to the vendor, again, no mention of railcard restrictions and a clear statement 'Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel'



The 'More info' option just says "Please make sure you bring your Railcard(s) with you." . If they can show that message, then there's no obvious reason it couldn't be expanded to say "
Please make sure you bring your Railcard(s) with you. Please check the Railcard restrictions to ensure your ticket is valid on the service you choose to use - some time restrictions may apply"

 

[My13s]

I've just been playing with this on the National Rail site (new version). It doesn't make any attempt to communicate the Network Railcard restrictions - if you pick a time when the railcard doesn't apply, it doesn't discount the ticket and (in the click through details, just says 'Railcard not applied'). Doesn't say why it's not applied.
If you select a time when the railcard is valid, this is the detail screen.
View attachment 160559
The 'More information about this ticket' section ( https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/sor/ ) clearly says "Anytime fares are fully flexible walk-up tickets with no restrictions on when you can travel." and makes no mention at all of the need to check railcard validity.

On the final review screen (before being redirected to a vendor) it mentions the railcard, so would be the sensible place to put a warning about the railcard validity period.
If I click through to the vendor, again, no mention of railcard restrictions and a clear statement 'Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel'

View attachment 160560

The 'More info' option just says "Please make sure you bring your Railcard(s) with you." . If they can show that message, then there's no obvious reason it couldn't be expanded to say "
Please make sure you bring your Railcard(s) with you. Please check the Railcard restrictions to ensure your ticket is valid on the service you choose to use - some time restrictions may apply"

This is exactly as I did it, and as it said no time restrictions at point of booking which I checked and double check I assumed that it was not discounting the return journey with the railcard as I had paid the extra money for it not to be a off peak return.

You live and learn, it just doesn’t inspire me with confidence to use online booking anymore.

 

[Hadders]

I have to say that in general the rail industry handles the inherent contradiction between railcards with time restrictions and tickets with no time restrictions very poorly, and in a sort of "gotcha" way. It really must be improved. At present it is very customer-unfriendly.

I agree. The screenshot of Thameslink's website I posted upthread is particularly poor, in my opinion.

Perhaps someone involved in website design and ticket retailing might see this and do something about it.....

 

[My13s]

There is an issue here for ticket selling websites. This is what you see on Thameslink's website when purchasing a Network Railcard discounted ticket and selecting 'open return'.

While I stand by my earlier comments about the conditions of the Network Railcard this isn't exactly clear - many would say it's misleading. There really should be something displayed in the 'Open return' section saying that the ticket cannot be used before 10:00 on weekdays.


View attachment 160558

Thank you for looking into it further. I am just a little confused as to how this can be done with no warning and charging extra for the anytime return which can only be used off peak.

In your opinion do you think there is anything I can do to strengthen my appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments and suggestions.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for looking into it further. I am just a little confused as to how this can be done with no warning and charging extra for the anytime return which can only be used off peak.

In your opinion do you think there is anything I can do to strengthen my appeal?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments and suggestions.

The issue with the incorrect grounds being given is sufficient in and of itself to overturn the Penalty Fare. The PF notice has to mention in general terms why you are being issued with it, and it plainly does not - "no ticket" is a falsehood.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you for looking into it further. I am just a little confused as to how this can be done with no warning and charging extra for the anytime return which can only be used off peak.

In your opinion do you think there is anything I can do to strengthen my appeal?

It's a tricky one because the Network Railcard do state on the railcard that they aren't valid before 10:00 on weekdays. If your railcard is on a phone app then the same info will be shown if you press the i in the top right hand corner.



There are potentially three things you could include in your appeal:

1. The Penalty Fare notice has been completed incorrectly as mentioned by @AlterEgo You did present a ticket when asked to do so.
2. Get someone to check whether the Penalty Fare notices at Gatwick Airport station comply with the regulations. An exact form of words has to be used on the notices and often the notices are incorrect and therefore do not comply with the regulations.
3. You could refer to the website screenshots shown above and given the confusion your appeal should be allowed for exceptional reasons.

Take a look at this thread as it might give you some ideas of how an appeal should be worded:

Stansted Airport fines

Went through today. Certainly is another huge poster on the right hand side above the ramp with a few different languages. It's all over the gates too. I wish the OP well with the appeal but I would be very surprised for GA to overturn it given how clear the signage is. Thanks - a few people...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

The issue with the incorrect grounds being given is sufficient in and of itself to overturn the Penalty Fare. The PF notice has to mention in general terms why you are being issued with it, and it plainly does not - "no ticket" is a falsehood.

Assuming the OP needs some good grounds to Appeal - this is surely good advice for them to follow.