Could Bradford Interchange to Leeds be Metroised?

[AlastairFraser]

Why do you think this? Why do you think it’s better to make these services go the long way around missing out key stations that they currently call at and feeding into Leeds on a much busier and more difficult to path route?

Adding yet another layer of changes where currently there is a direct service. Also let’s get this out of the way, there is no direct route from Bradford Interchange to Shipley and there never will be when it comes to heavy rail.

Yet more needless cost where the current direct service negates this requirement.

Making people from Halifax change is massively relevant. I honestly can’t believe the casual attitude towards Halifax passengers expecting them to forego their 4tph to Leeds. Making people change extends their journey time, adds a layer of disruption potential and is a seriously good advert for abandoning the railway. Maybe that’s what you want, it certainly seems that way. People don’t want a current 40 minute direct journey to be split up.

So 10% staying on and how many of those would be lost as you want to make Halifax to beyond Leeds change twice.

This is the point. A West Yorkshire light rail system needs to connect new areas along new alignments (along roads and former railway line alignments where they exist and are available being a good starting point), not make the current heavy rail network worse and less connective which is what seems to be getting suggested here.

I honestly don’t know why there’s a problem with regional services (Blackpool - York, Leeds - Man Vic via Calder Valley) being made to stop a few times as happens across the world. The 195’s were designed with this in mind. A long distance seating layout but with excellent metro loading capabilities and fast acceleration alongside a decent top speed.

All these suggestions are making peoples journeys slower with changes where there currently aren’t any adding into the mix (and excuse to add in) the usual destruction of Bradford city centre to link the terminals (no chance) and Skipton - Colne reopening (no chance).

One day someone might even acknowledge the free bus connection in Bradford idea, it works well in Glasgow.

1) The service needs speeding up as the 3rd cross pennine service, it's currently the poor relation with the low frequency and small units.
A new Skipton to Colne link at 100mph line speed and upgraded Gannow Jcn to Colne section could cut a significant amount of time off. Burnley could still be served by an upgraded Barracks Parkway station.

2) agreed on Interchange to Shipley - I was implicitly suggesting a bus or tram link when I said "by whatever means".

3) Nah, I don't want people to abandon the railway. Maybe I should clarify again - the question we were asked to answer was "Could Bradford Interchange be metroised?", not "Should Bradford Interchange be metroised?"
I was proposing an arrangement by which it could be.

4) The frequent stopping causes overcrowding along several sections, and unfortunately on the Blackpool to York services (unlike the Leeds to Manchester via Calder Valley) unit length is limited, because platform length is limited at several stations. This would be a less of an issue with several rebuilt or new stations Gannow Jcn to Skipton.

5) Trams work well as inter station connections - see Picc to Vic in Manchester or West Croydon to East Croydon in Croydon, but inter station buses have a really poor record of reliability and use in the UK.

That's why at least a LBA Parkway - Bradford Interchange tram line would be good as an initial phase of a longer route, linking the city centre stations with a major traffic objective and Apperley Bridge/the Harrogate line.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Had more thought been given at the time of design, this could have been purposed to offer a short route through.

Given the way the corridor to the toilets goes, I strongly suspect Westfield did consider it, and discounted it. They don’t want people to cut through the shopping centre, they want people to go into the shops.

The most direct walking route doesn’t go near the shopping centre though- it goes down Market Street and up Bridge Street. Even more so now Market Street and Bridge Street are traffic-free.

This was because it was a city bus (looping around the city centre), not a direct station to station bus which is my suggestion

It was, in fairness, direct in one direction. To be quite honest, with the changes in Bradford city centre closing most of the streets to traffic, even a direct free bus would be slower than just walking it now.

 

[geordieblue]

1) The service needs speeding up as the 3rd cross pennine service, it's currently the poor relation with the low frequency and small units.
A new Skipton to Colne link at 100mph line speed and upgraded Gannow Jcn to Colne section could cut a significant amount of time off. Burnley could still be served by an upgraded Barracks Parkway station.

Leeds to Burnley (Manchester Rd) takes about 1 hour 5. Burnley (Barracks) to Colne takes about 17, limited stop Skipton to Leeds takes 36. If you don’t do Skipton-Colne in less than 12 mins then there’s no time saving and meanwhile you’re skipping out the major markets of Bradford and Halifax. Not convinced spending half a million quid on reopening Skipton-Colne is much of a proposal especially in this context.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Leeds to Burnley (Manchester Rd) takes about 1 hour 5. Burnley (Barracks) to Colne takes about 17, limited stop Skipton to Leeds takes 36. If you don’t do Skipton-Colne in less than 12 mins then there’s no time saving and meanwhile you’re skipping out the major markets of Bradford and Halifax. Not convinced spending half a million quid on reopening Skipton-Colne is much of a proposal especially in this context.

Burnley Barracks to Colne could have the line speed increased, and any reopened Skipton - Colne line would have a journey time of around 10 mins. So no real issue. (Especially at the price of half a million )

The major markets of Bradford/Halifax can be accessed by a change at Rose Grove for Halifax or Shipley for Bradford (now there is capacity for additional services).

 

[geordieblue]

Burnley Barracks to Colne could have the line speed increased, and any reopened Skipton - Colne line would have a journey time of around 10 mins. So no real issue. (Especially at the price of half a million )

The major markets of Bradford/Halifax can be accessed by a change at Rose Grove for Halifax or Shipley for Bradford (now there is capacity for additional services).

Well yes but then you end up spending money whilst simultaneously decreasing revenue so still not exactly sure of what role Skipton-Colne plays in this.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well yes but then you end up spending money whilst simultaneously decreasing revenue so still not exactly sure of what role Skipton-Colne plays in this.

Preparation for growth!

 

[TUC]

Very hard to see from this discussion any argument for why it is thought people from Halifax and the Calder Valley would want to change at Bradford. If anything, Metro needs remaining that West Yorkshire is not just Bradford and Leeds.

 

[185]

T'interchange - Forster Sq. Joining them up is a technical, major works project, but this would allow many more trains through by linking them, with much faster journey times to Leeds. The line could be lowered substantially into a (770m) tunnel, or as is with (640m) viaducts. The Pudsey line could then be turned into a high capacity light rail line with more stops.

Where Liverpool, Manchester & Tyne-Wear PTEs had a vision, not a lot has happened in unimaginative WYPTE.

 

[Neptune]

1) The service needs speeding up as the 3rd cross pennine service, it's currently the poor relation with the low frequency and small units.
A new Skipton to Colne link at 100mph line speed and upgraded Gannow Jcn to Colne section could cut a significant amount of time off. Burnley could still be served by an upgraded Barracks Parkway station.

100mph line? Really? That sounds like a grasping at straws argument for reinstatement. A 2nd service (say Hull - Preston by extending the Halifax service) would also help.

2) agreed on Interchange to Shipley - I was implicitly suggesting a bus or tram link when I said "by whatever means".

So cross Bradford rail is now dead to you.

3) Nah, I don't want people to abandon the railway. Maybe I should clarify again - the question we were asked to answer was "Could Bradford Interchange be metroised?", not "Should Bradford Interchange be metroised?"
I was proposing an arrangement by which it could be.

Sadly alot of what you’ve been saying is an excellent argument for modal shift away from the railways.

4) The frequent stopping causes overcrowding along several sections, and unfortunately on the Blackpool to York services (unlike the Leeds to Manchester via Calder Valley) unit length is limited, because platform length is limited at several stations. This would be a less of an issue with several rebuilt or new stations Gannow Jcn to Skipton.

Or here’s a radical solution, extend the platforms required on the current route at a fraction of the cost of a (now 100mph!) Skipton - Colne line. Combined with extending the Hull - Halifax service along the route as mentioned before.

5) Trams work well as inter station connections - see Picc to Vic in Manchester or West Croydon to East Croydon in Croydon, but inter station buses have a really poor record of reliability and use in the UK.

Glasgow? Or is this being ignored because it works well and is popular, especially for the less able and those with luggage.

Of course you mention trams and this would be the A1 solution for West Yorkshire, just not a Metrolink style heavy rail conversion.

That's why at least a LBA Parkway - Bradford Interchange tram line would be good as an initial phase of a longer route, linking the city centre stations with a major traffic objective and Apperley Bridge/the Harrogate line.

Agreed.

Burnley Barracks to Colne could have the line speed increased, and any reopened Skipton - Colne line would have a journey time of around 10 mins. So no real issue. (Especially at the price of half a million )

Yes there’s been alot of rubbish about Skipton - Colne on here in the past but even the deluded SELRAP don’t claim 10 minutes (assuming no intermediate stations en route). If you think BPN - YRK can be speeded up by going all the way around via Colne and Skipton then you’re more deluded than SELRAP.

The major markets of Bradford/Halifax can be accessed by a change at Rose Grove for Halifax or Shipley for Bradford (now there is capacity for additional services).

So you admit they are major markets but still think they should be disconnected (and Halifax practically isolated judging by previous posts). As I say, modal shift away from the railway because you’ve massively lost both those markets. The coach companies will be rubbing their hands together for those hundreds upon hundreds of Blackpool days out in the summer.

T'interchange - Forster Sq. Joining them up is a technical, major works project, but this would allow many more trains through by linking them, with much faster journey times to Leeds. The line could be lowered substantially into a (770m) tunnel, or as is with (640m) viaducts.

How steep is this tunnel going to be and where are the portals? Which way is the viaduct threading through the city and how will it avoid all the issues as I asked up thread? Also how fast is ‘much faster’ on a much busier route?

The Pudsey line could then be turned into a high capacity light rail line with more stops.

What have Pudsey and Bramley done so wrong to be isolated from the national network? Where are these additional stops going to be on what is at times a pretty rural route.

Where Liverpool, Manchester & Tyne-Wear PTEs had a vision, not a lot has happened in unimaginative WYPTE.

So unimaginative that a light rail is being planned. You do know that these can be built on new alignments without the need to isolate places from the national network or isolate a major town from the biggest employment hub and financial draw in the county.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Joining them up is a technical, major works project, but this would allow many more trains through by linking them, with much faster journey times to Leeds. The line could be lowered substantially into a (770m) tunnel, or as is with (640m) viaducts.

The line from Leeds to Shipley is pretty much at capacity. And, even if it wasn’t, all you’d be doing is running the Calder Valley stuff via Shipley instead of via Bramley. Faster journey times? BDQ to LDS is slower than BDI to LDS.

As a Bradford boy, I’ve genuinely never understood why people are so obsessed about spending a few billion quid on linking two stations which are barely half a mile apart.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2024 ==

How steep is this tunnel going to be and where are the portals? Which way is the viaduct threading through the city and how will it avoid all the issues as I asked up thread?

The Bradford Beck doesn’t show on Google maps and I think people forget it exists.

 

[Neptune]

The line from Leeds to Shipley is pretty much at capacity. And, even if it wasn’t, all you’d be doing is running the Calder Valley stuff via Shipley instead of via Bramley. Faster journey times? BDQ to LDS is slower than BDI to LDS.

Also you’d be crossing Leeds west end from a different side which is the busiest side of the station. I just find it incredulous that this thread has become a tool to squeeze in the tired, debunked arguments for both Bradford crossrail and Skipton - Colne with the added hilarity of trying to justify making the current service much much worse. I just wish crayons came with planning tools (although it’d probably be said that the tools are wrong just to ‘prove’ a point).

As a Bradford boy, I’ve genuinely never understood why people are so obsessed about spending a few billion quid on linking two stations which are barely half a mile apart.

They don’t ever argue for Glasgow do they, 2 termini even closer together.

The Bradford Beck doesn’t show on Google maps and I think people forget it exists.

Yes if you go back 25 years or so there were plans to open it up again and form a marina in the city.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yes if you go back 25 years or so there were plans to open it up again and form a marina in the city.

That plan was to reinstate the Bradford Canal, which closed in 1922 because it was uneconomical. And that was a more sensible idea than Bradford Crossrail!

 

[WAO]

In Ken Livingston's time at the GLC, he ran a competition about cooling the tube. One entry proposed half-flooding the tunnels to platform height and substituting a Gondola service for the electric trains (yes we know the lines aren't level). It didn't win.

The reason that the old Crossrail item re-arose is because both a metro and a mysterious through heavy rail Bradford station have been seriously proposed, all at enormous cost. Political will is everything here.

We could cast our minds back to Merseyside's proposal for a 7.5 mile tram route to Kirkby, which was estimated at >£60M/route mile - a lot more now. Bradford did have a partial solution until 1968 - its trolley buses, which like Reading's were discontinued that year. Whether a "bendy-trolley" would be practical would be interesting to know? It would be a lot more achievable than re-routing all the underground services for tram track.

WAO

 

[185]

Where are these additional stops going to be on what is at times a pretty rural route?

Rural? It may be 20 years since I signed that short section of route, but it definitely isn't rural. I've just looked on Google Maps and there are two small fields it passes through, other than that the other 90-95% of the route is within 100m of housing or industry - many places would benefit from an improved rail service or high capacity light rail similar to T&W Merseyrail.

 

[Neptune]

Rural? It may be 20 years since I signed that short section of route, but it definitely isn't rural. I've just looked on Google Maps and there are two small fields it passes through, other than that the other 90-95% of the route is within 100m of housing or industry - many places would benefit from an improved rail service or high capacity light rail similar to T&W Merseyrail.

Ok maybe rural was the wrong word. So what’s wrong with running a tram along the A647 to connect these towns on the route better than the current heavy rail route.

From what I’ve seen on this thread nobody has absolutely any decent ideas for a fully integrated West Yorkshire public transport network serving underserved areas. It’s just ‘plonk a tram on a current heavy rail route’ and ‘disconnect one of the major towns from the county’s largest employment and leisure hub’ and then of course a forum favourite of Bradford crossrail without a thought for the nightmare logistics of such a scheme. Then we even get Colne - Skipton cropping up which would not benefit Bradford whatsoever and would substantially affect services despite the fantasy linespeed and magicking of paths on a much busier route.

It’s as if people want a new metro for West Yorkshire but don’t want it to serve anywhere new. I mean, it could be the cross Bradford link everyone is crying out for without need to knock buildings down, plough a viaduct through the shopping centre or tunnel under the city (no idea where the portals would be as that question wasn’t answered unsurprisingly). I just don’t get it.

 

[WAO]

From what I’ve seen on this thread nobody has absolutely any decent ideas for a fully integrated West Yorkshire public transport network serving underserved areas.

I've seen a lot of decent, interesting ideas, including yours.

I just don’t get it.

Be optimistic, tell yourself there may be a solution, even if partial and not immediately evident, and enjoy the search!
Regards,
WAO

 

[Sapphire Blue]

There is however a core section in the middle, which does cut through part of the shopping centre. Had more thought been given at the time of design, this could have been purposed to offer a short route through.

Generally though, shopping centres seem to hate good signage on how to walk through them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

other than that the other 90-95% of the route is within 100m of housing or industry

The line mostly backs on to low density commercial land or low density suburbia. The only bit where there’s any sort of density is around Stanningley and Bramley, both of which have railway stations.

 

[geordieblue]

The line mostly backs on to low density commercial land or low density suburbia. The only bit where there’s any sort of density is around Stanningley and Bramley, both of which have railway stations.

And, to be fair, around Armley although that could also be served by the Kirkstall Forge trains.

 

[AlastairFraser]

100mph line? Really? That sounds like a grasping at straws argument for reinstatement. A 2nd service (say Hull - Preston by extending the Halifax service) would also help.

So cross Bradford rail is now dead to you.

Sadly alot of what you’ve been saying is an excellent argument for modal shift away from the railways.

Or here’s a radical solution, extend the platforms required on the current route at a fraction of the cost of a (now 100mph!) Skipton - Colne line. Combined with extending the Hull - Halifax service along the route as mentioned before.

Glasgow? Or is this being ignored because it works well and is popular, especially for the less able and those with luggage.

Of course you mention trams and this would be the A1 solution for West Yorkshire, just not a Metrolink style heavy rail conversion.

Agreed.

Yes there’s been alot of rubbish about Skipton - Colne on here in the past but even the deluded SELRAP don’t claim 10 minutes (assuming no intermediate stations en route). If you think BPN - YRK can be speeded up by going all the way around via Colne and Skipton then you’re more deluded than SELRAP.

So you admit they are major markets but still think they should be disconnected (and Halifax practically isolated judging by previous posts). As I say, modal shift away from the railway because you’ve massively lost both those markets. The coach companies will be rubbing their hands together for those hundreds upon hundreds of Blackpool days out in the summer.

How steep is this tunnel going to be and where are the portals? Which way is the viaduct threading through the city and how will it avoid all the issues as I asked up thread? Also how fast is ‘much faster’ on a much busier route?

What have Pudsey and Bramley done so wrong to be isolated from the national network? Where are these additional stops going to be on what is at times a pretty rural route.

So unimaginative that a light rail is being planned. You do know that these can be built on new alignments without the need to isolate places from the national network or isolate a major town from the biggest employment hub and financial draw in the county.

1) I'm pretty sure 100mph has been mentioned as the spec speed for reopening on here some time before.
Any extension of a service over Copy Pit is going to be a waste of time, the line through Halifax is pretty rammed with existing services and the section time Tod to Burnley Manchester Road is not easily improved.

2) Extending the platforms at places like Accrington, Burnley Manchester Road and Heb Bridge?
How much money do you have? The site at Burnley MR in particular is hemmed in by embankments.

3) Glasgow is less of a pertinent example because there's the St Enoch to Buchanan St Subway option as well. I assume that we're considering bus OR alternative in Bradford, not both.

4)We'll see about Colne - Skipton. With some investment in Gannow Jcn - Colne, I reckon it could shave some time off.

5) Why would you be particularly worried about losing Blackpool days out?
The roads are **** cross pennine from most of Yorks to anything north/west of Preston. It's an hour and a half Halifax to Blackpool in a car at night, add 20 mins for a coach limited to 60. Even worse for places like Bradford.

A changeover at Rose Grove for WY daytrippers heading westbound wouldn't be particularly difficult, especially with a less expensive reinstatement of the 4 platforms there.

 

[Topological]

The line mostly backs on to low density commercial land or low density suburbia. The only bit where there’s any sort of density is around Stanningley and Bramley, both of which have railway stations.

It could be argued such conditions actually make a stronger case for metroisation.

Relatively speaking, it would be easier to add residential density on such land compared to already developed land. Given most cities are targeting options for more residential, it would seem that an opportunity arises here for Leeds/Bradford.

When I suggested the metroisation, I was thinking with a view to development opportunities and the resultant bounce that such a metroisation would give to the areas it passed through.

The cost to Halifax has been noted, meaning a solution that permits continued through trains appears to be required.

It would be interesting to think whether the faster acceleration profiles of electric metro stock would limit the longer distance trains that greatly, especially given longer distance trains also stop between Bradford Interchange and Leeds. If the overall time penalty would be low, then continued through running of some services would be less problematic. The connection also becomes less problematic if the time penalty is not too great. Sadly, modelling such is not in my skillset.

 

[Neptune]

1) I'm pretty sure 100mph has been mentioned as the spec speed for reopening on here some time before.

If it has then the promoters of this are even more naive than I thought.

Any extension of a service over Copy Pit is going to be a waste of time, the line through Halifax is pretty rammed with existing services and the section time Tod to Burnley Manchester Road is not easily improved.

There is space for the existing Halifax terminator from Hull to extend westwards.

2) Extending the platforms at places like Accrington, Burnley Manchester Road and Heb Bridge?
How much money do you have? The site at Burnley MR in particular is hemmed in by embankments.

Are you saying it would cost less to rebuild Skipton - Colne than to extend a few platforms (HBD is already long enough for 5 car trains and 6 car with ASDO). BYM was extended to take 4 cars back when Holme Tunnel was repaired so not exactly a tough task like you seem to (want to?) imply. ACR would be more difficult westbound due to the viaduct/signalling but 4 cars fit and ASDO is a solution for longer trains.

3) Glasgow is less of a pertinent example because there's the St Enoch to Buchanan St Subway option as well. I assume that we're considering bus OR alternative in Bradford, not both.

And yet there’s still a free bus in Glasgow despite there being an alternative on rails that has been there since the late 19th century.

As it stands in Bradford it would be a free bus as there is no alternative that is as quick or easy to get in place. Just because it doesn’t run on tracks doesn’t make it the devils work.

4)We'll see about Colne - Skipton. With some investment in Gannow Jcn - Colne, I reckon it could shave some time off.

Really? Can we see your detailed workings on this? Us planners will be happy to have a look although I tell you that we would never say ‘I reckon it could shave some time off’ unless we had those detailed plans in place with all timetabling and platforming (particularly interesting how it would affect Leeds).

5) Why would you be particularly worried about losing Blackpool days out?

And if you think that’s the only reason people from West Yorkshire use this service it 100% proves to me that you haven’t a clue about passenger flow on this route. Burnley or Blackburn to Bradford or Halifax are large markets. Preston though is the key station on the route from Bradford/Halifax for WCML connections. Losing this link would lose traffic to the roads.

The roads are **** cross pennine from most of Yorks to anything north/west of Preston. It's an hour and a half Halifax to Blackpool in a car at night, add 20 mins for a coach limited to 60. Even worse for places like Bradford.

So why are you wanting to get rid of that direct link if it takes so long by road? By the way from many parts of WY it is quicker by car than train. I should know, I used to do it when I lived in the Aire Valley.

A changeover at Rose Grove for WY daytrippers heading westbound wouldn't be particularly difficult, especially with a less expensive reinstatement of the 4 platforms there.

Right, so you question the theory of cost when it comes to extending a few platforms. That’s fair enough in isolation.

However in the self same post talk about making it a 100mph route including reopening a section of line that would be extremely expensive to reopen for little return and now you’re also quadrupling the line through Rose Grove including adding another ‘far too expensive in your opinion’ platform.

You really need to read through what you put before you post because all you keep doing is tripping yourself up and it looks a bit daft to be honest.