Overzealous(?) TransPennine Express Train Manager

[enginedin]

Today I was travelling up the West Coast Main Line, which involved a stint on a Northern service. Northern have been having a day of cancelling trains (again) - my reserved (advance ticket) train was cancelled so I took a train an hour earlier. At the station where I was due to change trains, I attempted to get on the next train heading to my destination (which was TransPennine Express), but wanted to check with the guard first. He saw my advanced ticket and despite acknowledging the disruption to the network, said I couldn't use his train and would have to wait for my reserved one.

Although I recognise he was (technically) correct, it seems a very overzealous following of the rules. Are TransPennine Train Managers instructed to follow the rules to the letter, or was I just unlucky with who I spoke to?

 

[yorkie]

Many staff are good with this, but some act as if the revenue goes to a totally different place and try their best to put people off travelling on the railway.

If ticket acceptance wasn't in place, then the staff member was being a "jobsworth", i.e. carrying out their job to the letter of the rules, but without applying pragmatism and common sense.

There are a few at TPE who are like that, but it's not the majority.

It's not how I would ever do any job I've ever done, but not everyone thinks the way that people like we do about such things.

 

[enginedin]

the staff member was being a "jobsworth"

I was actually going to use jobsworth too, but didn't want to offend any TPE Train Managers on here if that's what they're actually told to do...

With my booked train then being very delayed, a journey which should normally take 3.5 hours took just over 5. sigh.

 

[gray1404]

Was the delay known about when you asked the train manager if you could board the earlier service?

This train manager has ended up costing the industry money in delay repay.

 

[yorkie]

I was actually going to use jobsworth too, but didn't want to offend any TPE Train Managers on here if that's what they're actually told to do...

They do have the ability to apply discretion. I wouldn't call someone that to upset them, but this behaviour is the very definition of the term.

With my booked train then being very delayed, a journey which should normally take 3.5 hours took just over 5. sigh.

Some TPE staff seem to see that as just punishment for booking to travel with Northern.

Was the delay known about when you asked the train manager if you could board the earlier service?

If a delay of 61+ mins was foreseeable, Northern should be asked to agree to an alternative; if they fail to agree, then the customer can buy a ticket and bill the cost to Northern.

Given all the money goes to DfT, and given the alternative is to increase Delay Repay payments, it should really be automatic, but that's far too logical for the rail industry; see the existing thread on that subject: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-the-next-even-if-its-a-different-toc.269341/

This train manager has ended up costing the industry money in delay repay.

This minority doesn't care about the bigger picture; they are quite happy for the industry and DfT (who the money goes to, from both companies) to incur extra costs/losses and/or reduced income, as long as a pesky passenger doesn't travel on a 'rival' (!) operator's ticket on their train.

 

[enginedin]

Was the delay known about when you asked the train manager if you could board the earlier service?

Err, good question! Not to the public, although given the ~hour delay was because of a train crew being displaced because of other (90 minute) delays in the area which was affecting many services (including some TPE ones), I now realise that staff who were on the ball could probably have predicted what was going to happen...

 

[gray1404]

Make sure you claim delay repay at the very least!

 

[enginedin]

a 'rival' (!) operator's ticket on their train.

he did say he could sell me a ticket for his train for £90...

Make sure you claim delay repay at the very least!

I always do! Slightly annoyingly for me, it was a pretty cheap split ticket, so not quite as lucrative as it could have been

 

[gray1404]

If you want to post the full details of your journey and tickets held we can perhaps work out what should have happened and if you have grounds for a further complaint.

 

[PupCuff]

All of the above discourse misses the bigger point, that if Northern and TPE had agreed ticket acceptance, there wouldn't be any issue with requiring gestures of goodwill from individual staff.

The train companies task staff with following and enforcing, as necessary, the rules and instructions given. Rather than blaming the frontline staff member because they didn't go against what they had been told to do, complaint should be directed at the companies involved for not having agreements in place (which may mean money changes hands behind the scenes) for accepting passengers during disruption.

 

[yorkie]

Unless acceptance was in place, there isn't any point complaining to TPE about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

All of the above discourse misses the bigger point, that if Northern and TPE had agreed ticket acceptance, there wouldn't be any issue with requiring gestures of goodwill from individual staff.

I did mention the possibility of acceptance, but this point can be taken as a given.

It's also been debated extensively in the thread I linked to above.

The train companies task staff with following and enforcing, as necessary, the rules and instructions given.

Staff are not doing anything wrong by applying pragmatism; they have the authority to do so.

Rather than blaming the frontline staff member because they didn't go against what they had been told to do, complaint should be directed at the companies involved for not having agreements in place (which may mean money changes hands behind the scenes) for accepting passengers during disruption.

I stand by everything I said above; I don't think the term "blaming" is fair.

If you see something you disagree with, please quote the exact words and state your alternative view, without making any suggestions that someone has done something they did not do, e.g. "blaming".

 

[enginedin]

Unless acceptance was in place, there isn't any point complaining to TPE about it.

Yeh, that would have been my thought process too

If you want to post the full details of your journey and tickets held we can perhaps work out what should have happened and if you have grounds for a further complaint.

in my efforts to be vague, I realise there's something which might have been missed (which may or may not make a difference to the level of jobsworthness of the TM):

- ~18:00 Northern service cancelled, so I travelled on the 1700 service instead (I did check with the TM of that service, and he agreed I could travel) - ~45 min journey
- my advance ticket was then on a ~1900 service at the station I was connecting at - this service was neither Northern nor TPE (probably easy to guess which operator this was instead!)
- ~1800 service was the TPE train I asked to get on, and was refused
- my 1900 service was nearly an hour late

So sorry, my original post might have inadvertently made it seem that Northern and TPE should have ticket acceptance, which I didn't mean to imply (and probably not much argument for), but it does seem like reading between the lines most people think that many TMs would be pragmatic and would have still let me travel on the 1800 service.

 

[yorkie]

This is why it's best to tell us full details of the journey at the start of the thread. We can only go by what we are told.

However, the principle still stands, insofar as the operator of the 1900 is the operator you could have contacted to enable earlier travel on the 1800, if acceptance was not in place, and a delay of 61+ mins was foreseeable.

 

[gray1404]

I'm sorry but by failing to name the stations, exact times and date it is impossible to help.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

All of the above discourse misses the bigger point, that if Northern and TPE had agreed ticket acceptance, there wouldn't be any issue with requiring gestures of goodwill from individual staff.

Unless acceptance was in place, there isn't any point complaining to TPE about it.

There is mutual ticket acceptance with both TPE and Northern ongoing “in the event of a cancellation” during the current local industrial dispute.
I’ve carted enough of their passengers about recently without batting an eyelid!

Before I get hauled over the coals for not posting the source for this, as I’m sure some will, I will happily private message the source to any admin/moderators but it’s from an internal message board and even states it is not advertised but for staff information and to allow, I don’t want to post internal messages publicly here

Also, TPE have a history of, even when full ticket acceptance is in place, announcing Northern tickets will not be accepted when it’s on CIS screens, websites, apps and fully posted out on internal systems

Edit: last paragraph made no sense so re written

 

[yorkie]

There is mutual ticket acceptance with both TPE and Northern ongoing “in the event of a cancellation” during the current local industrial dispute.

That's interesting; how long has that been going on for?

I was on a Northern train from Blackpool to York that got cancelled last month and everyone was told to either go via Harrogate, or wait 45 mins for the Northern stopper. The Guard of the next TPE told me that there was no acceptance in place.

I've been denied travel or reluctantly allowed travel a few times, when I felt acceptance should be in place, but without anything in writing it is difficult to argue.

I’ve carted enough of their passengers about recently without batting an eyelid!

Before I get hauled over the coals for not posting the source for this, as I’m sure some will, I will happily private message the source to any admin/moderators but it’s from an internal message board and even states it is not advertised but for staff information and to allow, I don’t want to post internal messages publicly here

That's fine

Also, TPE have a history of, even when full ticket acceptance is in place, announcing Northern tickets will not be accepted when it’s on CIS screens, websites, apps and fully posted out on internal systems

That's disappointing, but not surprising.

 

[LowLevel]

TPE have always had some tediously over the top guards. I've recounted on here before that I once rolled into Manchester Piccadilly wedged out with their passengers and several members of stranded staff I'd rescued en route post the 2018 farce only to hear the guard of their train headed to Manchester Airport booming about how he was going to charge anyone without precisely the correct ticket in great detail.

Given the 3 figure sum of cancellations I figured he could have done with learning the same as the rest of us and just keeping quiet and getting his train from A to B!

 

[Tetchytyke]

TPE have always had some tediously over the top guards.

I do have sympathy given the shambolic ticketing arrangements between Manchester City centre and the Airport. But every time I get TPE from the airport these days there seems to be a guard or RPI having an argument with someone, usually because the preceding Northern train has been cancelled and the passenger has just got on the next train.

I don’t even travel in the UK that often! Maybe I’m just unlucky…

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do have sympathy given the shambolic ticketing arrangements between Manchester City centre and the Airport. But every time I get TPE from the airport these days there seems to be a guard or RPI having an argument with someone, usually because the preceding Northern train has been cancelled and the passenger has just got on the next train.

I don’t even travel in the UK that often! Maybe I’m just unlucky…

There's always been a bit of an arrogance among some TPE staff and a looking down the nose at Northern - "we're InterCity don't you know" (no, you're not, you're a jumped up regional express operation with some slightly fancy trains with pointy noses).