Should the order for 10 new 345s have been given to Southeastern?

[RailWonderer]

Moderator note: Split from

Alstom win order for ten new class 345s

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2024/6/alstom-signs-eu430-million-contract-10-aventra-trains-associated-maintenance-elizabeth-line-london mods note - split from this thread Alstom signs a €430 million contract for 10 Aventra trains with associated maintenance for the Elizabeth...

www.railforums.co.uk

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

Pretty sure it's been stated that they would need it come Old Oak common addition. Definitely 5 of the units will be required for that but the additional 5 are very good backups.

Also SE wouldn't need such a small order for the networker replacement, hence why they've a tender for a larger order which if approved and met would help reduce the ton of microfleet they have.

 

[LLivery]

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

Seeing XR don't have enough to run with HS2 open from OCC, they need at least 5. The extra 5 on top of that should be welcomed - a bit of good thinking for (what feels like) a change, even if it does feel a bit political...

And the last thing Southeastern needs are ten random 345s

 

[Energy]

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

They need 5 extra 345s for Old Oak Common. 10 was the minimum order that Alstom wanted and the extra 345s could be ordered using options in the original rolling stock contract.

TfL and the DfT are public bodies so have to go out to public tender. They may use direct award in certain circumstances: such as research/prototypes, when an open tender has had no responses, a previously competitively-awarded contract has the same work (and expired less than 3 years ago), another company would be unable to compete due to IP rights, change of supplier would cause technical issues for operations, buying assets from a company in insolvency, or for very short time frames.

The SouthEastern order would not satisfy any of the above so it would have to go to public tender, with no guarantee that Alstom would win it.

 

[Horizon22]

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

Yes they need at least 5 for OOC. Another 1-2 could increase service frequency very selectively in the peak. And extra contingency is no doubt welcome allowing the stock to be rotated for longer through OOC for maintenance / less intensively used.

If Southeastern / DfT want to make an order then that it through the tendering process and would no doubt we welcome and on top of this order if Alstom is the selected bidder.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes they need at least 5 for OOC. Another 1-2 could increase service frequency very selectively in the peak. And extra contingency is no doubt welcome allowing the stock to be rotated for longer through OOC for maintenance / less intensively used.

If Southeastern / DfT want to make an order then that it through the tendering process and would no doubt we welcome and on top of this order if Alstom is the selected bidder.

Why do we have to tender?

 

[JonathanH]

Why do we have to tender?

To get the best outcome for the person funding the order, and to ensure that large contracts are awarded fairly on their merits, not corruption.

 

[Chester1]

Depending on delivery and opening of Old Oak Common times, is there a possibility that TfL will lease the 10 units to a ToC for a while?

 

[JJmoogle]

Depending on delivery and opening of Old Oak Common times, is there a possibility that TfL will lease the 10 units to a ToC for a while?

No chance, they'll go into service on the Elizabeth once delivered regardless of when Old Oak actually opens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Modetator note: Split from

Alstom win order for ten new class 345s

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2024/6/alstom-signs-eu430-million-contract-10-aventra-trains-associated-maintenance-elizabeth-line-london mods note - split from this thread Alstom signs a €430 million contract for 10 Aventra trains with associated maintenance for the Elizabeth...

www.railforums.co.uk

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

They are needed because of HS2.

No, they should not go to Southeastern - not least because they're 24m units which may not fit! Southeastern is a 20m operation.

 

[bramling]

Modetator note: Split from

Alstom win order for ten new class 345s

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2024/6/alstom-signs-eu430-million-contract-10-aventra-trains-associated-maintenance-elizabeth-line-london mods note - split from this thread Alstom signs a €430 million contract for 10 Aventra trains with associated maintenance for the Elizabeth...

www.railforums.co.uk

Has anybody talked about whether or not the Elizabeth line actually needs these units? Couldn't this order have been given to Southeastern who actually need something to start replacing Networkers?

Not really sure I see the logic in this.

* SE already has three separate types of metro units, four if you include the two builds of Networker. Introducing a microfleet of 10 trains isn’t going to be helpful
* Crossrail ordering 10 trains doesn’t really have any bearing on what happens with SE
* Whether or not Crossrail absolutely needs 10 extra trains at this time, if they’re not ordered now then it may well prove very difficult to get matching extra trains in the future if the build comes to an end. The last thing needed is Crossrail having to have a mixed fleet
* SE doesn’t *need* new trains at all. They already have trains in store, and on paper at least the Networkers ought to be able to manage another decade. By contrast Crossrail aren’t replacing anything.

 

[RailWonderer]

They are needed because of HS2.

No, they should not go to Southeastern - not least because they're 24m units which may not fit! Southeastern is a 20m operation.

GA and LNR have gone from 20m units to 23m units so I don't see why Southeastern wouldn't, especially if they replace all the Networkers at once and you end up getting an order larger than ten.

* SE doesn’t *need* new trains at all. They already have trains in store, and on paper at least the Networkers ought to be able to manage another decade. By contrast Crossrail aren’t replacing anything.

A lot of posters on the forum were mentioning those trains not being in a very good condition and that they were high on the list for replacement. If not then a refurb would be needed for another decade as they're 30 years old already. Plus by the time new trains arrive they'll be 35 years old at the minimum. A 40 year service life isn't a plain rule, it depends how well looked after they've been, the difficulty and expense of sourcing parts, like a car really. Then you have franchise timing, but now it's more like DfT remembering they exist and will need new trains at some point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GA and LNR have gone from 20m units to 23m units so I don't see why Southeastern wouldn't, especially if they replace all the Networkers at once and you end up getting an order larger than ten.

There are gauging/clearance issues with 23/24m units on parts of the former Southern Railway, which is why the Javelin units are 20m. This differs from north of the river where the 23m IC trains running on the same lines have already led to that work being done.

 

[D7666]

There are gauging/clearance issues with 23/24m units on parts of the former Southern Railway, which is why the Javelin units are 20m. This differs from north of the river where the 23m IC trains running on the same lines have already led to that work being done.

You really must stop posting facts here you know you will disillusion the theorists.

 

[RailWonderer]

There are gauging/clearance issues with 23/24m units on the former Southern Railway, which is why the Javelin units are 20m. This differs from north of the river where the 23m IC trains running on the same lines have already led to that work being done.

Surely not the whole Southern Railway as you had 442s and currently 444s on part of it. And if Alstom can't manufacture a different length of coach when basically every other trainbuilder can, then they aren't helping themselves.

 

[D7666]

Not really sure I see the logic in this.

* SE already has three separate types of metro units, four if you include the two builds of Networker. Introducing a microfleet of 10 trains isn’t going to be helpful
*

And 10 fixed formation 205 m long units at that, have SET got any depots that could deal with that ?

PS
I think I know the answer .....................

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

And if Alstom can't manufacture a different length of coach when basically every other trainbuilder can, then they aren't helping themselves.

Of course they can. And they do.

But then if they did do that, it ain't a 345 order, ain't a 345 option, ain't a 345, and the end result is non standard. Who does that help ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The extra 5 on top of that should be welcomed - a bit of good thinking for (what feels like) a change, even if it does feel a bit political...

The whole order is political. Without them the Alstom plant would have no work and would close. The fact it would have no work would be due to the government’s inept management of the HS2 contract.

And if Alstom can't manufacture a different length of coach when basically every other trainbuilder can, then they aren't helping themselves.

They can, but if it’s not a 345 run-on order then it has to go out to tender. And if your primary objective is to keep the plant open in the short term, to keep it open in a gap in work that’s caused by the government, then a tender is no good.

 

[RailWonderer]

Who does that help ?

Alstom, to stay, you know, open, and save jobs? When it does go to tender they're surely the favourites if Alstom doesn't have other work on it's books before the HS2 build starts.

 

[skyhigh]

Alstom, to stay, you know, open, and save jobs? When it does go to tender they're surely the favourites if Alstom doesn't have other work on it's books before the HS2 build starts.

The whole idea of the 345 order is to quickly produce an existing design using a follow on option. Coming up with something new/modified with different body lengths doesn't fit any of that.

Your argument seems to be that instead of TFL getting a further 10 345s, Southeastern should have got 10 units designed to fit their requirements. Which was never on the table as an option.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I would have thought that Alstom would be taking care of the Elizabeth Line order 1st and possibly gaining more orders later on.