ASLEF vs. RMT

[ChristopherJ]

This is purely an historical question, but I no doubt this thread will become political. You have been warned.

Why do train drivers have their own exclusive ASLEF trade union, separate from all other grades represented by the RMT?

What was the requirement for train drivers to be represented separately from other railway grades?

The only plausible explanation I can think is because historically there was a 'driver is king' mentality within the railway. In some respects this still exists to this day...

Not ruffling feathers, up the workers...

Baz.

 

[AlterEgo]

The simple answer is both unions are the result of over 100 years of history and mergers, and they absorbed other smaller unions on the way. You can read all the history on Wikipedia.

A merger between the RMT and ASLEF has never been likely in modern times because ASLEF is a narrowly focused union representing an increasingly skilled workforce. The RMT is a giant hulk of a union with a different political agenda, and represents grades with a very different industrial relations perspective to drivers.

 

[Irascible]

ASLEF also covered firemen ( what would be the gender neutral description of that I wonder ) - did they historically cover cleaners ( passed or not ) also? they're somewhat borderline as footplate staff.

 

[driver9000]

ASLEF also covered firemen ( what would be the gender neutral description of that I wonder ) - did they historically cover cleaners ( passed or not ) also? they're somewhat borderline as footplate staff.

As far as I know engine cleaners were represented by ASLEF. The requirement for ASLEF membership is to be in the footplate line of promotion which cleaner was the first step.

 

[LowLevel]

ASLEF also covered firemen ( what would be the gender neutral description of that I wonder ) - did they historically cover cleaners ( passed or not ) also? they're somewhat borderline as footplate staff.

Well they were known informally as stokers in various areas so there's a good starter for ten!

 

[Undiscovered]

firemen

Firefighters?

 

[Gloster]

They couldn’t be firefighters because that is the opposite to what they do/did. Fire management technicians?

 

[Haywain]

They couldn’t be firefighters because that is the opposite to what they do/did. Fire management technicians?

Firers?

 

[John Webb]

They couldn’t be firefighters because that is the opposite to what they do/did. Fire management technicians?

Bearing in mind the other functions of a fireman on a steam loco, perhaps 'Boiler Management Technician'?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Bearing in mind the other functions of a fireman on a steam loco, perhaps 'Boiler Management Technician'?

Quite so, bearing in mind a fireman who wasn't up to the job, or got distracted from same, could, inadvertently, cause a blow back or worse, with horrific consequences (burns/scalding/even death to those on the footplate). There was a reason that promotion through the ranks was - as some today may think - long winded.
As an old hand NUR man (that's RMT in modern speak) I always got on well, in my later Management career with a number of my ASLEF colleagues. It wasn't about Union status, but more about understanding the issues that each side (I hate that phrase, 'side') that each group of people (drivers/planners etc) had to deal with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2024 ==

A merger between the RMT and ASLEF has never been likely in modern times because ASLEF is a narrowly focused union representing an increasingly skilled workforce. The RMT is a giant hulk of a union with a different political agenda, and represents grades with a very different industrial relations perspective to drivers.

Taking this to a specific job scenario (my BOLD), as mentioned above I am ex NUR, from the Signalling grade. Two different functions, but neither more (or less) important/skilled than the other - and yes, as part of my latter day Managerial job, rode 'Up Front' on a number of occasions for various (official) reasons.
I think this (ASLEF rules all/'driver is king') sort of BS is more about the Media/SM/forums various (etc) over the years, and at the end of the day does an injustice to the vast majority of railway employees who for the most part just try to provide the service that they are paid to do.

Rant for today over.

 

[NER1621]

Trade Unions have two different roots: the craft union (representing workers with a particular skill set who work across many different organisations or industries) and the industry union (representing all, or a lot of, workers in a particular economic sector, regardless of their specific job). ASLEF is a craft union, like the National Union of Journalists, or the National Union of Teachers, and RMT is an industry union like UNITE or UNISON or PROSPECT. So, in a local authority education department, the teachers might be members of the NUT (other teachers’ unions are available) whilst the cleaners, caretakers, administrative staff, maintenance workers etc might all be members of UNISON. All work in the same place but different unions. Sometimes craft and industry unions merge (often if the craft is a declining one in terms of numbers practising or economic power); sometimes they don’t.

 

[6Gman]

ASLEF also covered firemen ( what would be the gender neutral description of that I wonder ) - did they historically cover cleaners ( passed or not ) also? they're somewhat borderline as footplate staff.

I believe the full name is (or certainly was) the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, Motormen and Cleaners.


An interesting use of the North American "Engineers".

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Going back to the late 70s and early 80s the NUR (which later merged with the seamens union to form the RMT) had a strong membership amongst footplate staff at former LMS depots in at least some parts of Scotland although as the years progressed new recruits tended to join ASLEF.

 

[6Gman]

Going back to the late 70s and early 80s the NUR (which later merged with the seamens union to form the RMT) had a strong membership amongst footplate staff at former LMS depots in at least some parts of Scotland although as the years progressed new recruits tended to join ASLEF.

When I was a youngster my father (an ASLEF branch secretary) used to get regular figures of membership at ex-LNWR depots. Some were 100% ASLEF and many were very close. This was in the early 1960s, so quite close to the 1955 dispute which created significant tensions between ASLEF and NUR footplate staff. I'm sure there were significant regional variations.

 

[LYradial]

Does it not also go back to the days when drivers and shed staff were a different division reporting ultimately to the CME, whereas guards, station staff etc were traffic, with a different reporting structure.

both CME and traffic were directly answerable to the board, so two different negotiating lines

 

[Irascible]

Well they were known informally as stokers in various areas so there's a good starter for ten!

Would probably be in the RMT now though, that's a very maritime description I think

Bearing in mind the other functions of a fireman on a steam loco, perhaps 'Boiler Management Technician'?

And that's a very modern example of verbosity! describes the job well though, and why it's a bit more involved than a ship stoker ( as far as I'm aware ). Something involving "Specialist" perhaps, or "Engineer".

As an old hand NUR man (that's RMT in modern speak) I always got on well, in my later Management career with a number of my ASLEF colleagues. It wasn't about Union status, but more about understanding the issues that each side (I hate that phrase, 'side') that each group of people (drivers/planners etc) had to deal with.

Faction instead of "side" perhaps.

 

[Belperpete]

The NUR and ASLEF aren't or weren't the only railway unions. There is also the TSSA. I seem to recall that workshop staff belonged to a different union, but can't offhand remember its name.

 

[Snow1964]

The National Union of Railwaymen (another non neutral gender union name) was an amalgamation of some smaller unions in March 1913.

Think consistuents included :
Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales
General Railway Workers' Union
United Pointsmen's and Signalmen's Society

Clearly ASLEF did not join this union grouping, although had been one of the four unions that worked together in 1911 railway strike.

Apparently NUR was a very sexist union, the membership records from First World War (which are in various archives) have female members in red ink to denote temporary as didn't want women working when war was over.

 

[LowLevel]

The National Union of Railwaymen (another non neutral gender union name) was an amalgamation of some smaller unions in March 1913.

Think consistuents included :
Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales
General Railway Workers' Union
United Pointsmen's and Signalmen's Society

Clearly ASLEF did not join this union grouping, although had been one of the four unions that worked together in 1911 railway strike.

Apparently NUR was a very sexist union, the membership records from First World War (which are in various archives) have female members in red ink to denote temporary as didn't want women working when war was over.

In common with general attitudes at the time I think - you wouldn't have needed suffragettes if it was an easy problem to solve that wasn't entrenched in society!

It is a matter of record that the NUR was a large Jekyll and Hyde organisation during it's history - institutionally (in areas and at times) sexist and racist but also with people working within to change and break that approach that eventually won through.

It basically follows the rest of society.

 

[Calthrop]

As an old hand NUR man (that's RMT in modern speak) I always got on well, in my later Management career with a number of my ASLEF colleagues. It wasn't about Union status, but more about understanding the issues that each side (I hate that phrase, 'side') that each group of people (drivers/planners etc) had to deal with.

@Irascible writes: "Faction instead of 'side' perhaps."

I seem to recall a song, "in the 'folk' idiom" -- dating from the latter days of BR steam: its lyric being a catalogue of woes, told of by a fireman who is having hard times / journeys in a variety of ways -- including being paired with a driver with whom he doesn't get on well; whence a couplet, approximate wording

[he] draws a chalk line down the footplate -- one on each side we stand / For I belong to the NUR, and he's an ASLEF man.

 

[Irascible]

[he] draws a chalk line down the footplate -- one on each side we stand / For I belong to the NUR, and he's an ASLEF man.

Hah! in times of industrial dispute where each union had different approaches I'd imagine that'd have been more than figurative.

 

[ac6000cw]

I believe the full name is (or certainly was) the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, Motormen and Cleaners.


An interesting use of the North American "Engineers".

This BBC article provides a bit of background to that - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-32758223

Basically, 'engineer' is a very broad term that can be/has been applied to people who operate machines as well as those who design and maintain them. In that sense it was in use on both sides of the Atlantic well before railways arrived (the US was about 5 years behind the UK in early railway building).

 

[eldomtom2]

The NUR and ASLEF aren't or weren't the only railway unions. There is also the TSSA. I seem to recall that workshop staff belonged to a different union, but can't offhand remember its name.

The TSSA was and is the white-collar railway union (as opposed to the blue-collar NUR/RMT), and before 1951 was known as the Railway Clerks Association.

The National Union of Railwaymen (another non neutral gender union name) was an amalgamation of some smaller unions in March 1913.

Think consistuents included :
Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales
General Railway Workers' Union
United Pointsmen's and Signalmen's Society

Clearly ASLEF did not join this union grouping, although had been one of the four unions that worked together in 1911 railway strike.

The other unions wanted ASLEF to join but ASLEF refused. This was the start of a long and bitter rivalry that at one point escalated to ASLEF funding a breakaway signalman’s union.

I seem to recall a song, "in the 'folk' idiom" -- dating from the latter days of BR steam: its lyric being a catalogue of woes, told of by a fireman who is having hard times / journeys in a variety of ways -- including being paired with a driver with whom he doesn't get on well; whence a couplet, approximate wording

[he] draws a chalk line down the footplate -- one on each side we stand / For I belong to the NUR, and he's an ASLEF man.

Eight Freight Blues by Dave Goulder.

 

[Belperpete]

When I joined BR it was a closed shop, which meant that you HAD to join the appropriate union. I was handed the joining form (already filled out for me ready to sign IIRC) by my personnel officer (or staff officer as they were called in those days) on my first day as part of my induction. Were drivers given a choice of which union to join? I have never understood why some drivers were NUR while most were ASLEF.

I recall on one occasion when ASLEF were on strike, and I think the NUR too, the PWay needed to get a train down the Brighton line in place for an important weekend possession. They took possession of virtually the whole of the Brighton line, and used a steam crane to haul the train down, as cranes were operated by workshop union members. It had a big audience as it passed Southern House!

 

[Gloster]

I had an occasion when ASLEF were on strike so the local PW gang decided that they could do a bit of work that they needed the whole gang on. They rang me up to say where they were and I said that I wouldn’t let them do it without a TIII (Absolute Possession): “Oh, there aren’t any trains.” “I don’t care, I am not letting you do it without a TIII in the book.” One NUR driver came in at Plymouth and worked a HST to Bristol and back. I had that slight dilemma of whether I should have cautioned the train in case they had gone ahead anyway, but reckoned that the gang wouldn’t do the work once I had dug my toes in.

 

[MadMac]

Going back to the late 70s and early 80s the NUR (which later merged with the seamens union to form the RMT) had a strong membership amongst footplate staff at former LMS depots in at least some parts of Scotland although as the years progressed new recruits tended to join ASLEF.

I recall being told that ASLEF (didn’t the ‘F’ become Footplatemen latterly?) had relatively little presence in Scotland, what there was being mostly in the Borders. When the whole ”flexible rostering/single manning of freight” dispute was going on, a lot of younger drivers felt that ASLEF was doing a better job of fighting the fight and switched to them.

 

[furnessvale]

I believe disputes over the use of fireMAN, railwayMEN is divisive nonsense.

This use of the word man/men refers to mankind which covers both sexes.

 

[driver9000]

I recall being told that ASLEF (didn’t the ‘F’ become Footplatemen latterly?) had relatively little presence in Scotland, what there was being mostly in the Borders. When the whole ”flexible rostering/single manning of freight” dispute was going on, a lot of younger drivers felt that ASLEF was doing a better job of fighting the fight and switched to them.

If the F changed to Footplatemen then it didn't last long because it is still Firemen today and has been for as long as I've been a member.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2024 ==

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I believe disputes over the use of fireMAN, railwayMEN is divisive nonsense.

This use of the word man/men refers to mankind which covers both sexes.

At risk of veering OT, just wanted to say I completely agree, and that in the wider sense there is now far too much time/money/effort etc being wasted on such matters relating to language usage in all walks of life, to the point that in some cases I am sure that core job content/output may be suffering. I like most, would never deliberately cause offence to anyone and treat others as I would wish to be treated myself. There will always be a minority of people who take a warped sense of pleasure in offending others, but no amount of laws/rules will ever stop that.

 

[MadMac]

If the F changed to Footplatemen then it didn't last long because it is still Firemen today and has been for as long as I've been a member.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2024 ==

Quite possible that the word was used by a journalist who couldn’t be arsed to find out the truth!