2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[Belperpete]

and yes, this is all a bit harsh on the Arab Palestinians. Their future has been sacrificed by 'the West' from the turn of the last century, in order to try and resolve a vexing problem there. I fully understand the Palestinians viewpoint. Deadlock.

The Palestinians have also been used as pawns by their Arab "brothers" in their territorial ambitions, and in keeping the conflict going. Only to be thrown to the winds when it became expedient for those brothers to establish ties with Israel.

The Balfour declaration did include the requirement that establishment of a Jewish state should not prejudice the native population. Fine words, but in practice nothing was done by the west when Israel chose to ignore that and subsequent UN mandates and ride roughshod over them.

In practice, the Jewish state was founded by terrorists who used violence to get rid of the British, and then went on to use violence to get rid of the Palestinians. At the same time as Ben Gurion was making a speech about how Israel was going to be a peaceful state, hundreds of Palestinians were getting slaughtered in order to clear them out of villages that the Israelis wanted for their own.

 

[RT4038]

That’s quite a good basic explanation in my opinion.

In regard to the sentence in bold in your final paragraph, to what extent have the Palestinians made the best of the hand they were dealt? (Genuine question, as I often see “not at all” cited as the reason some people have no sympathy whatsoever).

I don't think it is reasonable to be too judgmental, especially with the benefit of hindsight. The Arab Palestinians had the creation of Israel forced upon them (and that opportunity only really presented itself with the fallout from the First World War, with the establishment of the British mandate over Palestine because the previous rulers, the Turks had aligned themselves with vanquished Germany). They fought against Jewish immigration before the Second World War and, with their Arab allies, have fought against Israel since then, with varying degrees of ferocity. Understandably, they want to return to the pre First World War position, preferably without Turkish rulers I expect - and why wouldn't they, considering they did no wrong to bring about the situation in the first place. The Palestinians and their Arab allies have tested the resolve of 'The West' and the Jewish people on numerous occasions, including this latest manifestation, and have found pretty much no change since the establishment of Israel 75 years ago. At some point, the Palestinians (and their allies) will have to accept the geopolitical situation and how that affects them and make the best of the situation, or they are going to be fighting and dying for many many years to come [a not impossible scenario unfortunately].

The Palestinians have also been used as pawns by their Arab "brothers" in their territorial ambitions, and in keeping the conflict going. Only to be thrown to the winds when it became expedient for those brothers to establish ties with Israel.

Yes, the geopolitical situation in the area is very complex. In addition to the Arab brothers, it may well be in the interests of 'the west' to have a certain amount of conflict too (if we really want to be Machiavellian!)

The Balfour declaration did include the requirement that establishment of a Jewish state should not prejudice the native population. Fine words, but in practice nothing was done by the west when Israel chose to ignore that and subsequent UN mandates and ride roughshod over them.

In practice, the Jewish state was founded by terrorists who used violence to get rid of the British, and then went on to use violence to get rid of the Palestinians. At the same time as Ben Gurion was making a speech about how Israel was going to be a peaceful state, hundreds of Palestinians were getting slaughtered in order to clear them out of villages that the Israelis wanted for their own.

The Balfour declaration was made in a completely different time to now, and out of date 25 years later following the Final Solution and the Second World War.

I suspect that the Ben Gurion view of a peaceful state and how to get there was through a different prism to that of, say, the British people writing the Balfour declaration? (How often has the phrase 'We'll kill to get peace' been heard in conflicts across the world, and even in our own country).

 

[DustyBin]

The Palestinians have also been used as pawns by their Arab "brothers" in their territorial ambitions, and in keeping the conflict going. Only to be thrown to the winds when it became expedient for those brothers to establish ties with Israel.

This is another complicating factor, although in some cases it goes beyond these countries simply using the Palestinians to keep the conflict going. In the case of Jordan for example, they're happy for the Palestinians to live anywhere but in Jordan!

I don't think it is reasonable to be too judgmental, especially with the benefit of hindsight. The Arab Palestinians had the creation of Israel forced upon them (and that opportunity only really presented itself with the fallout from the First World War, with the establishment of the British mandate over Palestine because the previous rulers, the Turks had aligned themselves with vanquished Germany). They fought against Jewish immigration before the Second World War and, with their Arab allies, have fought against Israel since then, with varying degrees of ferocity. Understandably, they want to return to the pre First World War position, preferably without Turkish rulers I expect - and why wouldn't they, considering they did no wrong to bring about the situation in the first place. The Palestinians and their Arab allies have tested the resolve of 'The West' and the Jewish people on numerous occasions, including this latest manifestation, and have found pretty much no change since the establishment of Israel 75 years ago. At some point, the Palestinians (and their allies) will have to accept the geopolitical situation and how that affects them and make the best of the situation, or they are going to be fighting and dying for many many years to come [a not impossible scenario unfortunately].

I think I said early on in this thread that ordinary Palestinians are the victims of geopolitical history. It really is a mess as you say, even without considering the religious significance of certain sites (more relevant to the West Bank, obviously).

There needs to be pragmatic and fundamentally decent leaders on both sides at the same time for there to be any chance of a peaceful resolution, but that seems a pipe dream at this point.

 

[brad465]

I think I said early on in this thread that ordinary Palestinians are the victims of geopolitical history. It really is a mess as you say, even without considering the religious significance of certain sites (more relevant to the West Bank, obviously).

There needs to be pragmatic and fundamentally decent leaders on both sides at the same time for there to be any chance of a peaceful resolution, but that seems a pipe dream at this point.

Hugh Dennis many years ago discussing the various Middle East conflicts joked about how if this is anyone's fault it's God's. He said something on the lines of; "Firstly for putting the primary religious sites of Judaism, Christianity and Islam within 300 miles of each other, then if that wasn't enough he put all the oil there as well. He could have put the oil anywhere he could have put it underneath Belgium. But instead he gave them chocolate and [insert certain behaviour linked to Marc Dutroux]."

 

[Bantamzen]

Hugh Dennis many years ago discussing the various Middle East conflicts joked about how if this is anyone's fault it's God's. He said something on the lines of; "Firstly for putting the primary religious sites of Judaism, Christianity and Islam within 300 miles of each other, then if that wasn't enough he put all the oil there as well. He could have put the oil anywhere he could have put it underneath Belgium. But instead he gave them chocolate and [insert certain behaviour linked to Marc Dutroux]."

That just made me laugh out loud! And sadly in a way its kind of true, ultimately the conflicts in the region that have raged on & off for centuries derive from the three religions from the area falling out with each other in a competition to be the shiniest and closest to their deity. Even when the big three aren't arguing and fighting with each other, they argue and fight amongst themselves. Then chuck oil and money into the mix...

Seriously though, I think one thing that is needed is religious leaders on all sides to stop competing, and take the lead in settling their differences. This would be a vital step in the right direction because for many people in the region, religion is far more important than politics. So the leaders setting a new bar based on peace not conflict could go a long way towards settling many disputes. Either that or god needs to make an appearance and choose his / her favourite.

 

[DustyBin]

Hugh Dennis many years ago discussing the various Middle East conflicts joked about how if this is anyone's fault it's God's. He said something on the lines of; "Firstly for putting the primary religious sites of Judaism, Christianity and Islam within 300 miles of each other, then if that wasn't enough he put all the oil there as well. He could have put the oil anywhere he could have put it underneath Belgium. But instead he gave them chocolate and [insert certain behaviour linked to Marc Dutroux]."

Many a true word....

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That is why Hitchens wrote the book "God is NOT great" .. religion really has messed the whole region up.

 

[brad465]

Netanyahu is planning to continue the war through the summer, including potential escalation against Hizbollah:

Benjamin Netanyahu lays out plans for a summer of conflict

Israeli premier’s first Hebrew interview since October 7 puts region on notice

on.ft.com

Benjamin Netanyahu’s first Hebrew-language interview since October 7 laid out his vision for a long, hot summer in the Middle East: continued fighting in Gaza, no permanent ceasefire to secure the return of hostages, and potential escalation with Hizbollah in Lebanon.

This is all very much on him now, the UN Security Council approved a US-led ceasefire plan and Bibi is clearly not interested. Never underestimate the lengths one individual will go to in order to stay out of jail.

 

[brad465]

Looks like Hamas are not coming out of this well, with some Palestinians questioning whether the October 7th attack was worth it and why Hamas are using civilian areas to hold hostages and/or launch attacks:

Hamas faces growing public dissent as Gaza war erodes support

Palestinians in Gaza are openly criticising the armed group both on the streets and online.

www.bbc.co.uk

The man in the video is beside himself, a mask of anguish radiating through his bloodied face.

“I am an academic doctor,” he says, “I had a good life, but we have a filthy [Hamas] leadership. They got used to our bloodshed, may God curse them! They are scum!”

The video - unthinkable before the Gaza war - was filmed outside a hospital, inundated with hundreds of Palestinian casualties after an Israeli operation to free hostages from central Gaza last month.

Warning: Graphic image

Seconds before the video ends, he turns to the crowd.

“I’m one of you,” he says, “but you are a cowardly people. We could have avoided this attack!”

The video went viral. And it’s not the only one.

Open criticism of Hamas has been growing in Gaza, both on the streets and online.

Some have publicly criticised Hamas for hiding the hostages in apartments near a busy marketplace, or for firing rockets from civilian areas.

Residents have told the BBC that swearing and cursing against the Hamas leadership is now common in the markets, and that some drivers of donkey carts have even nicknamed their animals after the Hamas leader in Gaza - Yahya Sinwar - urging the donkeys forward with shouts of "Yallah, Sinwar!"

“People say things like, ‘Hamas has destroyed us’ or even call on God to take their lives,” one man said.

“They ask what the 7 October attacks were for - some say they were a gift to Israel.”

Some are even urging their leaders to agree a ceasefire with Israel.

There are still those in Gaza fiercely loyal to Hamas and after years of repressive control, it’s difficult to know how far the group is losing support, or how far existing opponents feel more able to speak their mind.

But even some on the group’s own payroll are wavering.

One senior Hamas government employee told the BBC that the Hamas attacks were “a crazy, uncalculated leap”.

He asked that we concealed his identity.

“I know from my work with the Hamas government that it prepared well for the attack militarily, but it neglected the home front,” he said.

“They did not build any safe shelters for people, they did not reserve enough food, fuel and medical supplies. If my family and I survive this war, I will leave Gaza, the first chance I get.”

This should serve as a reminder that a regime is not representative of the people it presides over, and that while the IDF rightly gets criticism, it is possible to criticise the actions of all sides, rather than picking one to suit an agenda, something the ICC prosecutor believes in, given the arrest warrant requests for individuals from both Hamas and the Israeli government.

 

[jon0844]

Looks like Hamas are not coming out of this well, with some Palestinians questioning whether the October 7th attack was worth it and why Hamas are using civilian areas to hold hostages and/or launch attacks:

Hamas faces growing public dissent as Gaza war erodes support

Palestinians in Gaza are openly criticising the armed group both on the streets and online.

www.bbc.co.uk

This should serve as a reminder that a regime is not representative of the people it presides over, and that while the IDF rightly gets criticism, it is possible to criticise the actions of all sides, rather than picking one to suit an agenda, something the ICC prosecutor believes in, given the arrest warrant requests for individuals from both Hamas and the Israeli government.

Indeed, just as we're in the process of holding our Government to account and hopefully booting them out, so too should we all be able to criticise the Israeli Government and Hamas freely.

The current regimes are as bad as each other and until they can realise at some point they just must stop tit for tat attacks (with one side stupidly more powerful than the other) and accept the need to seek a peaceful solution, as we did after decades in Northern Ireland (however hard it might be not to get revenge for whatever happened in the past) then it won't change.

And Israel clearly has a man in charge who would never entertain such an idea. He wants to literally wipe everyone out and either take the whole land for Israel, or at least take it over (perhaps with troops on the ground forever) for security reasons.

There are clearly people on both sides who can see this and want the fighting to stop. We've seen plenty of Jewish people doing so, and maybe we'd have seen more Palestinians in Gaza decrying Hamas if the media hadn't been effectively ousted and they weren't terrified of the repercussions of saying so.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The ICJ believes Israel's occupation of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal:

The UN's top court has said Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is against international law, in a landmark opinion.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) said Israel should stop settlement activity in the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza and end its "illegal" occupation of those areas as soon as possible.

The court's advisory opinion is not legally binding but still carries significant political weight. It marks the first time the ICJ has delivered a position on the legality of the 57-year occupation.

ICJ gives opinion on Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories

The UN's top court says Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is against international law and settlements should stop, in a landmark opinion.

www.bbc.co.uk

Lammy has said the UK will restore funding to UNRWA

The UK will resume funding UNRWA, the UN's agency for Palestinian refugees, the foreign secretary has announced.

David Lammy told MPs he had received reassurances about its neutrality in the wake of a review of alleged links between its staff and terror groups.

UK to resume funding UN Gaza aid agency, David Lammy says - BBC News

The UK was among nations to halt funding after Israel alleged UNWRA staff took part in the Hamas attack.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two decisions that will be welcomed by many across the world.

 

[brad465]

Netanyahu is visiting Washington today and addressing Congress, in what is expected to be a very contentious affair with huge protest/unrests:

Live updates: Netanyahu to address US Congress on Israel-Hamas conflict

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will soon address both chambers of Congress.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hello and welcome to our live coverage of Israel Prime Minister's Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to a joint session of the US Congress.

Netanyahu, who was invited by Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson, is on his first trip outside Israel since the conflict began,

He is expected to try and bolster bipartisan support for Israel as he faces increasing pressure for his handling of the war.

The speech, which comes after close to nine months of war in Gaza during which more than 39,000 people have been killed, is expected to be met by a day "day of rage" from protesters in Washington DC.

American families of hostages still held in Gaza will attend the speech and have asked Congress to keep the focus on their release.

Stay with us as we bring you the latest lines from the Congress and the protests outside, as well as analysis of the situation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Biden is a lame duck president for all intents and purposes. It will be interesting to see what he does after today's speech.

 

[brad465]

Israel has launched a strike on southern Beirut to target a Hizbollah commander. They, or should I say Netanyahu with the threat of jail looming, really wants to escalate this conflict don't they.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Netanyahu's best strategy imho is to call a general election - crazy idea I know in the middle of a war (s)

 

[Belperpete]

Israel has launched a strike on southern Beirut to target a Hizbollah commander. They, or should I say Netanyahu with the threat of jail looming, really wants to escalate this conflict don't they.

And now apparently a strike on Tehran. Talk about poking a hornets nest!

 

[ainsworth74]

And now apparently a strike on Tehran. Talk about poking a hornets nest!

Yes a real poke in the eye. Apparently they've managed to kill the head of Hamas (who I shall not be shedding a tear for) in Tehran following his attendance at the inauguration of the new President of Iran. A massive security failure by the Iranian security services during a time in which they'd presumably be on high alert due to the inauguration ongoing (quite apart from any regional tensions!) making them look quite foolish.

Last time something like this happened we narrowly avoid a regional war and on that occasion Israel didn't carry out their attack in Iran but in Damascus. So, strap in folks...

 

[brad465]

Something else perhaps worth mentioning is that the target, Ismail Haniyeh, is one of the 5 who the ICC prosecutor has been seeking arrest warrants for. Of course he was probably never going to face trial anyway.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Last time something like this happened we narrowly avoid a regional war and on that occasion Israel didn't carry out their attack in Iran but in Damascus. So, strap in folks...

Yes, I am very concerned. Of course, I have skin in the game in that many of my relatives live in Israel - and quite a few of Israeli descent in Preston Lancs et al too.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Last time something like this happened we narrowly avoid a regional war and on that occasion Israel didn't carry out their attack in Iran but in Damascus. So, strap in folks...

At the same time, it might be a good move by Israel. They've not only shown that the Iranian defences are wide open, but that they've also managed to take out a prime target.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I see Netanyahu has done an "Address the Nation" within the last few hours.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

At the same time, it might be a good move by Israel. They've not only shown that the Iranian defences are wide open, but that they've also managed to take out a prime target.

Yes a real poke in the eye. Apparently they've managed to kill the head of Hamas (who I shall not be shedding a tear for) in Tehran following his attendance at the inauguration of the new President of Iran.

Wasn't he the political not military head? If Israel is serious about wanting an end to the fighting, I thought that he might be the one to talk to.

 

[uglymonkey]

They don't want to end the fighting, an external threat is what is keeping Netanyahu on the "throne" and also as someone said "Out of jail". He has absolutely no reason to want to stop this at all, so it goes on.

 

[brad465]

Something else perhaps worth mentioning is that the target, Ismail Haniyeh, is one of the 5 who the ICC prosecutor has been seeking arrest warrants for. Of course he was probably never going to face trial anyway.

Okay, now 2 out of 5:

Hamas military chief was killed in July air strike, Israel says

Hamas has not confirmed the death of Mohammed Deif, who led the group's military wing.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel's military says it killed Hamas military chief Mohammed Deif in an air strike in Gaza on 13 July.
Deif was targeted in an Israeli strike on a compound in the Khan Younis area.
The Israeli military said at the time said that another Hamas commander, Rafa'a Salemeh, was killed in the strike, but said it did not have final confirmation on the fate of Deif.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2024 ==

There's form for an announcement like this preceding notable military action in the affected area:

US urges citizens to leave Lebanon on 'any available ticket'

The UK and Jordan also tell citizens to leave, as Israel's tensions with Iran reach a new high.

www.bbc.co.uk

The US embassy in Beirut has urged its citizens to leave Lebanon on “any ticket available”, amid soaring tensions in the Middle East.
The advisory follows a similar warning from UK Foreign Secretary David Lammy, who said the regional situation “could deteriorate rapidly”.
Iran has vowed “severe” retaliation against Israel, which it blames for the death of Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran on Wednesday. His assassination came hours after Israel killed Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr in Beirut.
It is feared that Lebanon-based Hezbollah, an Iran-backed group, could play a heavy role in any such retaliation, which in turn could spark a serious Israeli response.

Hezbollah launched dozens of rockets at the town of Beit Hillel in northern Israel at around 00:25 local time on Sunday (22:25 BST Saturday) .
Footage posted on social media showed air defence systems intercepting the missiles. There have been no reports of casualties.
Jordan's Foreign Ministry has also issued advice to its citizens, telling those in Lebanon to leave immediately and warning others not to travel there.
Canada has warned its nationals to avoid travel to Israel, on top of existing advice against going to Lebanon, because the "situation can deteriorate further without warning" in the region.

 

[brad465]

Pressure seems to be intensifying on the Israeli government to come to a deal with Hamas for releasing hostages, after it transpired 6 hostages were killed not long before Israeli forces reached them:

Tens of thousands rally in Israel calling for hostage release deal

The protests come after six hostages taken by Hamas on the 7 October attacks were found dead in Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thousands of people taking part in mass demonstrations across Israel after the bodies of six hostages held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip were recovered by soldiers on Sunday.
Protestors, many clad in Israeli flags, have descended on major cities, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, demanding that the government reaches a deal to secure the release of the remaining hostages taken by Hamas during the 7 October attacks.
The demonstrations come as a major Israeli labour union, Histadrut, called for a nationwide general strike on Monday, urging the government to strike a deal.
Sunday's protests have been peaceful, but demonstrators have broken through police lines, blocking a major highway in Tel Aviv.
As they broke through the lines onto the Ayalon Highway protesters chanted things like "policemen, policemen who are you protecting" and "shame, shame". Some set fires on the road and draped yellow ribbons - a symbol of solidarity with the hostages - from a bridge overhead.
As she marched down the highway, one demonstrator - Noga Burkman - told the BBC that she "couldn't stay at home anymore".
"People understand that now we need to break the rules and do something," adding that "tonight is just the beginning".
Elsewhere, in the city itself, the gathering saw a diverse mix of demonstrators, with one group of young scouts leading chants.
Some people scaled buses and bins to gain a vantage point over the march, while others surrounded someone wearing a mask of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, chanting: “Alive, alive, we want them alive.”
Another held a sign which read: "You are the head. You are to blame". In Jerusalem, a massive crowd of demonstrators gathered outside the prime minister's office.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Pressure seems to be intensifying on the Israeli government to come to a deal with Hamas for releasing hostages, after it transpired 6 hostages were killed not long before Israeli forces reached them:

Tens of thousands rally in Israel calling for hostage release deal

The protests come after six hostages taken by Hamas on the 7 October attacks were found dead in Gaza.

www.bbc.co.uk

Netanyahu survival is intrinsically linked to keeping this going and the ultra right wing grouping in the cabinet is right behind him.

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully, this will lead to the downfall of the far-right regime in Israel.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hopefully, this will lead to the downfall of the far-right regime in Israel.

Maybe the beginning of the end but they will need to keep the pressure on them for weeks to get the cabinet right wingers to flinch they are in it for the long haul now.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Israeli Supreme Court is now trying to end the general strikes, this could get messy if the popular anger keeps people out on the streets beyond the 16:30 deadline. Assuming Netanyahu is able to use the judiciary to support an unpopular government position, how far could protest go and will the government resort to oppressive means to shut it down?

Update - deadline was initially reported as 16:30, now clarified as 14:30, which was half an hour ago. The far right Finance Minister Smotrich has also been clarified as the party who took this to the high court, so it’s clear the government has pushed for judicial involvement.

 

[Ediswan]

Maybe the beginning of the end but they will need to keep the pressure on them for weeks to get the cabinet right wingers to flinch they are in it for the long haul now.

Zionism is a multi-generational project. Currently about 125 years in.