Could Bradford Interchange to Leeds be Metroised?

[YorksLad12]

Do I really think these changes are worthwhile, not really, i just want a direct train from York to Bramley without changes

You're assuming Bramley stays open once Mass Transit comes in...

 

[yoyothehobo]

You're assuming Bramley stays open once Mass Transit comes in...

Why would you close it? And surely a mass transit route should serve places not already served by the railway. Also mass transit, cant see it happening.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you are going to build a new line you dont neccesarily need to build it to & from Bradford. You could build it from Low Moor then follow the M62 to joining the Transpennine route just before Leeds shortly after Morley tunnel.

You wouldn't get much speed out of a rail alignment that followed that stretch of the M62, it's pretty curvy... and you probably wouldn't chose that route to the Gildersome Interchange (IKEA & M621) only to continue following the M62 on the dogleg around to the Tingley Interchange. There's also a lot of busy roads and buildings around Gildersome (the IKEA, the massive retail park, the Cinema) that would make it difficult to thread a railway through unless you were to re-bore the infilled tunnel from the Leeds "New Line" which passed underneath where the Motorway junction is today.

 

[rapmastaj]

A form of Bradford Crossrail is coming, but it'll be by tram:

Leeds and Bradford trams in West Yorkshire mass transit plan

UK: Plans for two tram lines in Leeds and Bradford have been set out by West Yorkshire Combined Authority, ahead of the Mayoral election in May.

www.railwaygazette.com

"UK: Plans for two tram lines in Leeds and Bradford have been set out by West Yorkshire Combined Authority, ahead of the Mayoral election in May.

The Leeds Line would start at St James’ Hospital and run through Leeds city centre and Elland Road to reach the White Rose Shopping Centre.

The Bradford Line would share the route from St James’s University Hospital to Leeds city centre, before taking a route to Bradford Forster Square and a proposed new railway station south of Bradford city centre.

Submission of the strategic outline case to the Department for Transport is set to be approved by members of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority on March 14.

The estimated £2bn+ project would then be subject to a full business case and approvals process, including public consultation on the exact routes. A Transport & Works Act Order would then be sought. The Combined Authority hopes that construction could begin in 2028."

 

[AlastairFraser]

Ding ding ding.

Bradford crossrail bingo

Oh my goodness it never takes long for Bradford Crossrail to raise its head.

I reiterate (as every time).

How are you getting around the city centre and its newly built shopping centre? How are you getting around the huge height difference? How are you getting around the fact that you’d have to re-dig out the gradient at the Interchange which would involve closing Bridge Street and re-introducing a bridge to carry the road? That’s just the minor stuff!

I know it is an awkward project to build, but the question was "Could Bradford Interchange be Metroised"? The only rational answer is 1) with Bradford Crossrail, or 2) reopening of Skipton - Colne to divert Blackpool - York services.

With the Calder Valley services terminating in Bradford Interchange and a high frequency metro service to Leeds, the time lost for changing between services would be minimal and not obstructive to passenger flow, but with a key interregional service like Blackpool - York, a change in the interchange would be a significant deterrent to travel in an important transPennine link.

 

[dodecahedron67]

The only semi-realistic way to “metro-ise” Interchange-Leeds is either a tram on a new alignment, or adding min. 2tph extra Leeds-Bradford(-Halifax potentially) services

I haven’t even looked at platforming, pathing, or stock feasibility.

I suspect you would at minimum need to get rid of the BradHud ‘wobble’ service and integrate it into the 6tph LDS-HFX as well as re-opening a third platform at HFX for the minimum 2tph (HFX-Hull, HFX-LDS) terminators. You also may need extra platforms at Leeds or increased interworking and shorter turn arounds, which carries its own risks…

 

[yoyothehobo]

I know it is an awkward project to built, but the question was "Could Bradford Interchange be Metroised"? The only rational answer is 1) with Bradford Crossrail, or 2) reopening of Skipton - Colne to divert Blackpool - York services.

With the Calder Valley services terminating in Bradford Interchange and a high frequency metro service to Leeds, the time lost for changing between services would be minimal and not obstructive to passenger flow, but with a key interregional service like Blackpool - York, a change in the interchange would be a significant deterrent to travel in an important transPennine link.

I think my dictionary has a different definition of "rational".

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think my dictionary has a different definition of "rational".

If you've got any more realistic suggestions, please indulge us.

 

[Neptune]

I know it is an awkward project to built, but the question was "Could Bradford Interchange be Metroised"? The only rational answer is 1) with Bradford Crossrail, or 2) reopening of Skipton - Colne to divert Blackpool - York services.

Awkward? That’s an understatement and a half.

I also find it incredible that as well as Bradford crossrail rearing its head here somehow the reopening of Colne to Skipton gets squeezed in. This time taking away the huge traffic flow Blackpool - York services attract from Bradford, Halifax and even Hebden (I can tell you’ve never looked at passenger flow on this route).

With the Calder Valley services terminating in Bradford Interchange and a high frequency metro service to Leeds, the time lost for changing between services would be minimal and not obstructive to passenger flow, but with a key interregional service like Blackpool - York, a change in the interchange would be a significant deterrent to travel in an important transPennine link.

Really? Have you not read my previous post about how constrained Bradford Interchange is for constant flows of passengers changing trains in both directions? You’re also happy for Halifax to lose its direct Leeds service too (Halifax’s main flow)?

You also don’t seem to have explained what you’d do with the well used East Leeds and beyond market. For instance a family travelling from Halifax to York who currently have a direct service would have to change twice under this plan. This seems like a great advert for the roads (York does have an excellent park and ride after all). Or those commuters from Halifax to Cross Gates or Garforth likewise changing twice in rush hour (constrained BDI and fighting the crowds at LDS). Hello office car park.

Can I respectfully ask do you even know the area and the travel habits? Do you realise that breaking services up just to create a couple of extra stations and a slightly more regular service between 2 points (there are already 6tph Leeds - Bradford across both routes) affects far more people far and wide and in many cases would lead to modal shift away from the railways as they’d lose the reason they use the trains.

Why does the Leeds - Bradford metro route need to be on a current route. It would be better on a new route heading through the many suburbs of both cities which don’t have quite as easy access to the railway network. Let the 20-25 minute Leeds - Bradford services continue across both routes and let a new metro take up the slack in the other areas that aren’t connected.

 

[Topological]

For those with more knowledge of planning than I, is it possible to find slots amongst a metro frequency electric stopping service to run longer-distance trains without a significant time penalty? I dropped the directs from the OP on the assumption that it would be hard, but subsequent posts have suggested the direct services could be kept.

If the pattern allowed maintaining the Blackpool-York and one Manchester Victoria*-Leeds in opposite half hours would give Halifax a better Leeds service.

Presumably the 195s have better acceleration so if they get stuck behind a metro would not suffer as badly as a slower-accelerating unit?

 

[30907]

For those with more knowledge of planning than I, is it possible to find slots amongst a metro frequency electric stopping service to run longer-distance trains without a significant time penalty? I dropped the directs from the OP on the assumption that it would be hard, but subsequent posts have suggested the direct services could be kept.

It would - metro EMUs could be specified like German S-Bahns to maintain similar running times to a fast (New Pudsey only) DMU, and 4+4=8tph should be possible on that basis. However, you couldn't run that number into Leeds City (nor probably Interchange)....

If the pattern allowed maintaining the Blackpool-York and one Manchester Victoria*-Leeds in opposite half hours would give Halifax a better Leeds service.

At half the present frequency though and only a couple of minutes faster.

 

[Topological]

It would - metro EMUs could be specified like German S-Bahns to maintain similar running times to a fast (New Pudsey only) DMU, and 4+4=8tph should be possible on that basis. However, you couldn't run that number into Leeds City (nor probably Interchange)....

At half the present frequency though and only a couple of minutes faster.

The concern here was that you end up with a situation like that on the Styal line in Manchester, where the local service is constrained by longer-distance trains going to the airport.

IF Picadilly could be redesigned I would advocate for a regular shuttle service on the Styal line too, but it creates too many crossing moves and the longer-distance services need somewhere to terminate having arrived in platforms 13/14 (hence sending to the airport). Long distance direct trains are politically useful too given the concentration on Manchester Aiport in the region.

In the case of Bradford, it would seem that the station at Interchange could handle more services IF they were not having to cross each other to get to/from Leeds. There is land in the throat to almost operate platforms 1 and 2 as a separate terminus to 3 and 4, which means there is not the big issue that constrains the Styal line. Indeed a 6tph metro service only needs one platform really, as the turnaround time can be less than 10 minutes.

Each service which continues through Interchange represents a crossing move, so for every route continued through Bradford there needs to be paths. Reducing the current operation to 2tph in each direction saves crossing moves.

Maybe nothing will ever be done, but it feels like we are very quick to let longer-distance trains dominate local provision potential.

IF the stock were suitable, the trains could continue to be direct but now serve all stations between Bradford and Leeds, but that is another one that creates outrage for longer-distance passengers.

 

[Neptune]

If the pattern allowed maintaining the Blackpool-York and one Manchester Victoria*-Leeds in opposite half hours would give Halifax a better Leeds service.

It would be worse as you’d be cutting HFX - LDS in half from 4tph to 2tph.

In the case of Bradford, it would seem that the station at Interchange could handle more services IF they were not having to cross each other to get to/from Leeds. There is land in the throat to almost operate platforms 1 and 2 as a separate terminus to 3 and 4, which means there is not the big issue that constrains the Styal line. Indeed a 6tph metro service only needs one platform really, as the turnaround time can be less than 10 minutes.
Each service which continues through Interchange represents a crossing move, so for every route continued through Bradford there needs to be paths. Reducing the current operation to 2tph in each direction saves crossing moves.

The track works and associated signalling and platform extensions at BDI a few years ago actually made the layout more flexible. With bi-di working you can have simultaneous arrivals/departures. Yes each service crosses the throat in 1 direction but the more flexible layout plus better spaced timetabling removes conflicting moves except during late running (which can afflict the network anywhere in the country anyway).

Maybe nothing will ever be done, but it feels like we are very quick to let longer-distance trains dominate local provision potential.
IF the stock were suitable, the trains could continue to be direct but now serve all stations between Bradford and Leeds, but that is another one that creates outrage for longer-distance passengers.

195’s are more than suitable for both long distance services and metro style services due to their internal layout. They also have the rapid acceleration needed for metro style stoppers.

 

[BogiePicker]

Re Bradford Crossrail, it seems much more sensible than building a third, brand new, NPR through-station and ending up with *three* disconnected city stations. The amount quoted here by Huw Merriman is £2bn for a new station https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/23837088.2bn-rail-project-chance-regenerate-bradford/

I always thought that Bradford Crossrail's benefits were

Generally:
- Through-running means greater capacity than two separate termini
- Through-running also means greater connectivity

Specifically:
- Halifax to Leeds via Aire Valley - > can open more stations along New Pudsey Route
- Former Forster Square terminators from Ilkley and Skipton can be unified with New Pudsey trains to Leeds, increasing loadings and basically doubling direct frequencies (though not all with same timings) from Skipton and Ilkley to Leeds.

Back to topic, this might thus be how you get your 'metroisation': say 4 tph via New Pudsey and 4 tph via Shipley = 8 tph, but from a single central station.

There is definitely a lot of latent demand in South Bradford. An Atkins 2014 study estimated 500k pa demand from a new Bowling station. In 2024 ten years later and with north-south intracity Bradford connectivity added, you can bet it would be higher. Thus this is the sort of project where the 'business case' would be much stronger implemented as part of a greater regional strategy rather than piecemeal. And to get the same sort of functional capacity from the two termini, you'll be spending a lot as well. Bit by bit, adding a platform here and there, and having to do it at two stations rather than one.

Anecdotally, I've a friend with a family who lives in Keighley. Would like to take leisure trips to Halifax and even Bradford, but the Forster Square factor is a deterrent to both trips: the indirect change for the former and the inconvenient location for the latter. There must be quite a few trips not taken because of this, a good bit of suppressed demand.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I have got it!

First of all we close the New Pudsey line and open Bradford central crossrail station, 4 tracks 4 platforms( 2 tracks are split into a and b). Running from bradford towards shipley is 4 track (dont worry about the room, space is just negative thinking). Before we get to shipley 2 of the tracks (these connect to the calder valley services at bradford) have a fully grade separated flyover at Shipley to run on the new 3rd and 4th track down the aire Valley completely independtly of any other service.

I have costed this at approximately 57million pounds

 

[Neptune]

Re Bradford Crossrail, it seems much more sensible than building a third, brand new, NPR through-station and ending up with *three* disconnected city stations. The amount quoted here by Huw Merriman is £2bn for a new station https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/23837088.2bn-rail-project-chance-regenerate-bradford/

I always thought that Bradford Crossrail's benefits were

Generally:
- Through-running means greater capacity than two separate termini
- Through-running also means greater connectivity

Specifically:
- Halifax to Leeds via Aire Valley - > can open more stations along New Pudsey Route
- Former Forster Square terminators from Ilkley and Skipton can be unified with New Pudsey trains to Leeds, increasing loadings and basically doubling direct frequencies (though not all with same timings) from Skipton and Ilkley to Leeds.

Back to topic, this might thus be how you get your 'metroisation': say 4 tph via New Pudsey and 4 tph via Shipley = 8 tph, but from a single central station.

There is definitely a lot of latent demand in South Bradford. An Atkins 2014 study estimated 500k pa demand from a new Bowling station. In 2024 ten years later and with north-south intracity Bradford connectivity added, you can bet it would be higher. Thus this is the sort of project where the 'business case' would be much stronger implemented as part of a greater regional strategy rather than piecemeal. And to get the same sort of functional capacity from the two termini, you'll be spending a lot as well. Bit by bit, adding a platform here and there, and having to do it at two stations rather than one.

And how do you get over the issues I’ve mentioned before?

To remind you:-

“How are you getting around the city centre and its newly built shopping centre? How are you getting around the huge height difference? How are you getting around the fact that you’d have to re-dig out the gradient at the Interchange which would involve closing Bridge Street and re-introducing a bridge to carry the road? That’s just the minor stuff!”

Anecdotally, I've a friend with a family who lives in Keighley. Would like to take leisure trips to Halifax and even Bradford, but the Forster Square factor is a deterrent to both trips: the indirect change for the former and the inconvenient location for the latter. There must be quite a few trips not taken because of this, a good bit of suppressed demand.

Is there not still a direct bus? It’s not all that far between the two towns and both bus stations are much better located for the town centres than the railway stations.

 

[WAO]

And how do you get over the issues I’ve mentioned before?

To remind you:-

“How are you getting around the city centre and its newly built shopping centre? How are you getting around the huge height difference? How are you getting around the fact that you’d have to re-dig out the gradient at the Interchange which would involve closing Bridge Street and re-introducing a bridge to carry the road? That’s just the minor stuff!”

Is there not still a direct bus? It’s not all that far between the two towns and both bus stations are much better located for the town centres than the railway stations.

While I tend to agree that Bradford Crossrail has missed the bus with the building of the Courts and Shopping Centre across the route, some of the problems may be less than apparent.

The viaduct spans between pillars of HS2 are 80 - 90 m. A long modern viaduct, open underneath, from north of FS to south of BI might solve the gradient issue and, by providing grade separation, reduce the centre land take.

If billions are really to be spent on trains (or tram-trains) in central Bradford (which I doubt can be justified - the No 72 bus was a better way to Leeds) then wider options need to be considered.

The Courts are probably a harder obstacle but if Bradfordians were more law abiding?

WAO

 

[Neptune]

While I tend to agree that Bradford Crossrail has missed the bus with the building of the Courts and Shopping Centre across the route, some of the problems may be less than apparent.

The viaduct spans between pillars of HS2 are 80 - 90 m. A long modern viaduct, open underneath, from north of FS to south of BI might solve the gradient issue and, by providing grade separation, reduce the centre land take.

It doesn't really matter how long the spans are though. It would be too steep to climb over the shopping centre and can’t be propped down the side due to the listed buildings in Little Germany. And as you say, the law courts would need to be removed so lots of costs to replace them too.

If billions are really to be spent on trains (or tram-trains) in central Bradford (which I doubt can be justified - the No 72 bus was a better way to Leeds) then wider options need to be considered.

Again (and ignored constantly because it doesn’t seemingly fit in with railway idealism) what is wrong with a free dedicated bus link between the 2 stations? Am I typing this idea in invisible ink? Why must millions upon millions and potentially billions (lest we forget it would require rebuilding an entire city centre despite what the wannabe engineers on here think) be spent on this when it could be resolved so quickly and cheaply.

The Courts are probably a harder obstacle but if Bradfordians were more law abiding?

I’m guessing it’s intended as a joke but find that comment quite needless especially in context of what is being discussed. Almost accusatory that Bradford is the only place on the country with crime. Also last time I did jury service there several years ago the cases that I was on were people from Kirklees and Calderdale. The courts deal with a far wider area than just Bradford.

 

[YorksLad12]

While I tend to agree that Bradford Crossrail has missed the bus with the building of the Courts and Shopping Centre across the route, some of the problems may be less than apparent.

The former Exchange land is mostly owned by the Council, I think by design in case there was ever the option for a single station...

On which, I've had an idea. Drive the Airedale line as south as you can and the Calder Valley Line as far north as you can. Connect the two with escalators for passengers and voila! One station - Bradford (High Level and Low Level).

I'll get my coat...

 

[AlastairFraser]

Awkward? That’s an understatement and a half.

I also find it incredible that as well as Bradford crossrail rearing its head here somehow the reopening of Colne to Skipton gets squeezed in. This time taking away the huge traffic flow Blackpool - York services attract from Bradford, Halifax and even Hebden (I can tell you’ve never looked at passenger flow on this route).

Really? Have you not read my previous post about how constrained Bradford Interchange is for constant flows of passengers changing trains in both directions? You’re also happy for Halifax to lose its direct Leeds service too (Halifax’s main flow)?

You also don’t seem to have explained what you’d do with the well used East Leeds and beyond market. For instance a family travelling from Halifax to York who currently have a direct service would have to change twice under this plan. This seems like a great advert for the roads (York does have an excellent park and ride after all). Or those commuters from Halifax to Cross Gates or Garforth likewise changing twice in rush hour (constrained BDI and fighting the crowds at LDS). Hello office car park.

Can I respectfully ask do you even know the area and the travel habits? Do you realise that breaking services up just to create a couple of extra stations and a slightly more regular service between 2 points (there are already 6tph Leeds - Bradford across both routes) affects far more people far and wide and in many cases would lead to modal shift away from the railways as they’d lose the reason they use the trains.

Why does the Leeds - Bradford metro route need to be on a current route. It would be better on a new route heading through the many suburbs of both cities which don’t have quite as easy access to the railway network. Let the 20-25 minute Leeds - Bradford services continue across both routes and let a new metro take up the slack in the other areas that aren’t connected.

1) It is my view that the long distance service across the Pennines via East Lancs is better routed via Skipton-Colne.

Additional services could then be provided to link with the Blackpool-York service at Rose Grove on the west side, and via whatever link from Bradford Interchange to Shipley at the eastern end (excluding Leeds, because it would still be served, of course.)
2) Obviously you'd have to rebuild Bradford Interchange to have capacity for more passengers regardless.
Halifax losing a direct service is less relevant with a simple change onto the Leeds metro at the Interchange, if the frequency is high enough.

3) How frequent are actual cross - Leeds journeys apart from Halifax/Bradford to York? Is it really a significant flow to be tipped out? I take these services from the Preston end quite frequently to visit friends in Leeds and Bradford, and they usually seem to tip out at Leeds with 90% of passengers changing.

4) Your last point is a fair one - although I was attempting to answer the question "Could Bradford Interchange be metroised?", to which the answer seems to be not practically, there are other areas in WY more deserving of light rail/metro lines.
I'd say a mixed light rail/tram line would be more useful.

Maybe routed something like Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway station - LBA itself - Yeadon - Apperley Bridge station - Ravenscliffe - Peel Park - Forster Square - Interchange - Dudley Hill - Birkenshaw - Gomersal - Heckmondwike - Dewsbury Hospital - Dewsbury station - Ossett - Flanshaw - Wakefield.

That would connect 1) a huge amount of people back onto reliable public transport, 2) give an airport with poor public transport links from most of WY a proper connection, 3) provide an elusive cross-WY transport link that doesn't require changing in Leeds, and 4) be able to use some old railway alignment between Bradford and Dewsbury.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Halifax losing a direct service is less relevant with a simple change onto the Leeds metro at the Interchange, if the frequency is high enough

The current frequency from Halifax to Leeds is 4tph. Any metro isn’t realistically going to be much better than that- Metrolink and the T&W Metro both run at 5tph.

Bradford Crossrail has always been a solution looking for a problem.

Anecdotally, I've a friend with a family who lives in Keighley. Would like to take leisure trips to Halifax and even Bradford, but the Forster Square factor is a deterrent to both trips: the indirect change for the former and the inconvenient location for the latter

Forster Square’s location is about as central as it gets, only a couple of hundred yards from the main shopping centre.

Keighley to Halifax you’d take the hourly Transdev bus anyway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The current frequency from Halifax to Leeds is 4tph. Any metro isn’t realistically going to be much better than that- Metrolink and the T&W Metro both run at 5tph.

Bradford Crossrail has always been a solution looking for a problem.

A higher frequency is certainly possible on that line if converted - it's a question of wanting to tbh.

 

[Neptune]

1) It is my view that the long distance service across the Pennines via East Lancs is better routed via Skipton-Colne.

Why do you think this? Why do you think it’s better to make these services go the long way around missing out key stations that they currently call at and feeding into Leeds on a much busier and more difficult to path route?

Additional services could then be provided to link with the Blackpool-York service at Rose Grove on the west side, and via whatever link from Bradford Interchange to Shipley at the eastern end (excluding Leeds, because it would still be served, of course.)

Adding yet another layer of changes where currently there is a direct service. Also let’s get this out of the way, there is no direct route from Bradford Interchange to Shipley and there never will be when it comes to heavy rail.

2) Obviously you'd have to rebuild Bradford Interchange to have capacity for more passengers regardless.

Yet more needless cost where the current direct service negates this requirement.

Halifax losing a direct service is less relevant with a simple change onto the Leeds metro at the Interchange, if the frequency is high enough.

Making people from Halifax change is massively relevant. I honestly can’t believe the casual attitude towards Halifax passengers expecting them to forego their 4tph to Leeds. Making people change extends their journey time, adds a layer of disruption potential and is a seriously good advert for abandoning the railway. Maybe that’s what you want, it certainly seems that way. People don’t want a current 40 minute direct journey to be split up.

3) How frequent are actual cross - Leeds journeys apart from Halifax/Bradford to York? Is it really a significant flow to be tipped out? I take these services from the Preston end quite frequently to visit friends in Leeds and Bradford, and they usually seem to tip out at Leeds with 90% of passengers changing.

So 10% staying on and how many of those would be lost as you want to make Halifax to beyond Leeds change twice.

4) Your last point is a fair one - although I was attempting to answer the question "Could Bradford Interchange be metroised?", to which the answer seems to be not practically, there are other areas in WY more deserving of light rail/metro lines.
I'd say a mixed light rail/tram line would be more useful.

Maybe routed something like Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway station - LBA itself - Yeadon - Apperley Bridge station - Ravenscliffe - Peel Park - Forster Square - Interchange - Dudley Hill - Birkenshaw - Gomersal - Heckmondwike - Dewsbury Hospital - Dewsbury station - Ossett - Flanshaw - Wakefield.

That would connect 1) a huge amount of people back onto reliable public transport, 2) give an airport with poor public transport links from most of WY a proper connection, 3) provide an elusive cross-WY transport link that doesn't require changing in Leeds, and 4) be able to use some old railway alignment between Bradford and Dewsbury.

This is the point. A West Yorkshire light rail system needs to connect new areas along new alignments (along roads and former railway line alignments where they exist and are available being a good starting point), not make the current heavy rail network worse and less connective which is what seems to be getting suggested here.

I honestly don’t know why there’s a problem with regional services (Blackpool - York, Leeds - Man Vic via Calder Valley) being made to stop a few times as happens across the world. The 195’s were designed with this in mind. A long distance seating layout but with excellent metro loading capabilities and fast acceleration alongside a decent top speed.

All these suggestions are making peoples journeys slower with changes where there currently aren’t any adding into the mix (and excuse to add in) the usual destruction of Bradford city centre to link the terminals (no chance) and Skipton - Colne reopening (no chance).

One day someone might even acknowledge the free bus connection in Bradford idea, it works well in Glasgow.

 

[Bantamzen]

Why do you think this? Why do you think it’s better to make these services go the long way around missing out key stations that they currently call at and feeding into Leeds on a much busier and more difficult to path route?

Adding yet another layer of changes where currently there is a direct service. Also let’s get this out of the way, there is no direct route from Bradford Interchange to Shipley and there never will be when it comes to heavy rail.

Yet more needless cost where the current direct service negates this requirement.

Making people from Halifax change is massively relevant. I honestly can’t believe the casual attitude towards Halifax passengers expecting them to forego their 4tph to Leeds. Making people change extends their journey time, adds a layer of disruption potential and is a seriously good advert for abandoning the railway. Maybe that’s what you want, it certainly seems that way. People don’t want a current 40 minute direct journey to be split up.

So 10% staying on and how many of those would be lost as you want to make Halifax to beyond Leeds change twice.

This is the point. A West Yorkshire light rail system needs to connect new areas along new alignments (along roads and former railway line alignments where they exist and are available being a good starting point), not make the current heavy rail network worse and less connective which is what seems to be getting suggested here.

I honestly don’t know why there’s a problem with regional services (Blackpool - York, Leeds - Man Vic via Calder Valley) being made to stop a few times as happens across the world. The 195’s were designed with this in mind. A long distance seating layout but with excellent metro loading capabilities and fast acceleration alongside a decent top speed.

All these suggestions are making peoples journeys slower with changes where there currently aren’t any adding into the mix (and excuse to add in) the usual destruction of Bradford city centre to link the terminals (no chance) and Skipton - Colne reopening (no chance).

One day someone might even acknowledge the free bus connection in Bradford idea, it works well in Glasgow.

Just on the last point there was once a free bus across the city. However it wasn't a direct Interchange > Forster Square > Interchange route, instead from Forster Square it took a meandering route around the outskirts around the university area before returning to the Interchange. This resulted in it being used by locals as a free commuter bus rather than a link between stations. It then briefly had a flat fare of 50p, before numbers plummeted and the service was eventually canned.

Dial forward a number of years, and part of the reason for having it is being paved over. In a few months it will be possible to walk from Forster Square to the Interchange crossing just one road, Lower Kirkgate, meaning that it will be a lot less awkward than previously. The only real problem is that its still not really that well signposted, and when building The Broadway everyone forgot that it might be useful to have an entrance facing the walkway to Forster Square, meaning that part of the route could be undercover through the shopping centre. Hey ho, joined up thinking and all that.

I guess the only other option now might be to agree multi-modal acceptance on cross-Bradford tickets. This would allow punters to arrive at the Interchange, cross Bridge Street and pick up a number of services currently running from there to Forster Square. Not as ideal as a dedicated free bus, but it might help.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One day someone might even acknowledge the free bus connection in Bradford idea, it works well in Glasgow.

There used to be a free bus, doing a loop around the city centre and serving both stations, funded by Metro and the council. Nobody used it, so it stopped.

A West Yorkshire light rail system needs to connect new areas along new alignments (along roads and former railway line alignments where they exist and are available being a good starting point), not make the current heavy rail network worse and less connective which is what seems to be getting suggested here.

Absolutely.

Converting the line via Pudsey into light rail would achieve no new journey opportunities. Much of the line is not in a residential area, there is limited scope for additional stations. And, of course, any additional stations would increase journey time, making the service less attractive for people from the Calder Valley or, indeed, from Bradford.

If we’re really getting the crayons out, the obvious would be to convert the line of the 72 bus to a tram, with or without a diversion/branch to Pudsey town centre.

 

[WAO]

While I agree that a good bus link (waiting for the train, not departing 30s before arrival and with through or free ticketing) would be more (and immediately) achievable, one should rarely say "never" to an additional scheme.

The difference now in availability of money is political not economic. Political will (at present) seems to dictate both a metro/tram and/or a new main station. Integrating this with the long held (since C19) wishes of pregrouping railways etc to cross Bradford seems sensible, even if made near impossible by the city's road centred policies

One could construct a route, following a straight course South of Queens Road (Manningham Station site), all the way to Lower Kirkgate, crossing mainly car parking and two buildings. A gradient of 1:100 (low for Yorkshire), would give at least 12m headroom and would cross Hamm Strasse where it is lower, West of the bridge. At that height, the route could pass above the shopping centre (generally 3 storeys) albeit on a heroically long span or on a viaduct using a small number of piers passing through it. The Courts are more of a problem as either there must be a sharpish curve or they must come down. Other public buildings of the era have been declared "life expired", or wrongly sited so its condition would be of interest. After then one is almost in line with BI. Where one would site a new station I leave to others as the battery in my crayon is now really flat.

I am not saying that the above should be done or is the economic, technical or political optimum, just one should rarely use absolutes. Please don't nitpick with details.

I like the idea of a 72 tram, one side blue/white, the other two tone green!

WAO

 

[Tetchytyke]

The only real problem is that its still not really that well signposted, and when building The Broadway everyone forgot that it might be useful to have an entrance facing the walkway to Forster Square, meaning that part of the route could be undercover through the shopping centre. Hey ho, joined up thinking and all that

The shopping centre is a wedge shape and so walking through it- even if there were a door where River Island is- would add quite a bit of distance to the walk. There are doors further down the street, you can enter the mall through Next and M&S from the street.

The walk isn’t as well signposted as it could be, but it’s a flat walk. Takes me less than ten minutes to do, and should be better now most of the city centre is traffic free.

 

[Bantamzen]

The shopping centre is a wedge shape and so walking through it- even if there were a door where River Island is- would add quite a bit of distance to the walk. There are doors further down the street, you can enter the mall through Next and M&S from the street.

The walk isn’t as well signposted as it could be, but it’s a flat walk. Takes me less than ten minutes to do, and should be better now most of the city centre is traffic free.

There is however a core section in the middle, which does cut through part of the shopping centre. Had more thought been given at the time of design, this could have been purposed to offer a short route through.

 

[Neptune]

There used to be a free bus, doing a loop around the city centre and serving both stations, funded by Metro and the council. Nobody used it, so it stopped.

This was because it was a city bus (looping around the city centre), not a direct station to station bus which is my suggestion.

Absolutely.

Converting the line via Pudsey into light rail would achieve no new journey opportunities. Much of the line is not in a residential area, there is limited scope for additional stations. And, of course, any additional stations would increase journey time, making the service less attractive for people from the Calder Valley or, indeed, from Bradford.

Yes this is my exact point but sadly some people think West Yorkshire is fair game for making its public transport system worse. I really can’t understand why.

If we’re really getting the crayons out, the obvious would be to convert the line of the 72 bus to a tram, with or without a diversion/branch to Pudsey town centre.

It’s an idea, goes on wide roads and through much more populous areas than the Interchange to Leeds line.

While I agree that a good bus link (waiting for the train, not departing 30s before arrival and with through or free ticketing) would be more (and immediately) achievable, one should rarely say "never" to an additional scheme.

I can happily say never to the usual Bradford Crossrail schemes. I work in the planning side of the industry, I know what is achievable and what isn’t. This just isn’t unless you flatten the city centre which would be ridiculous.

The difference now in availability of money is political not economic. Political will (at present) seems to dictate both a metro/tram and/or a new main station. Integrating this with the long held (since C19) wishes of pregrouping railways etc to cross Bradford seems sensible, even if made near impossible by the city's road centred policies

A city centre street tram is the answer then, linking the 2 stations. No big overbearing viaducts or demolishing of buildings in the city centre required.

One could construct a route, following a straight course South of Queens Road (Manningham Station site), all the way to Lower Kirkgate, crossing mainly car parking and two buildings. A gradient of 1:100 (low for Yorkshire), would give at least 12m headroom and would cross Hamm Strasse where it is lower, West of the bridge. At that height, the route could pass above the shopping centre (generally 3 storeys) albeit on a heroically long span or on a viaduct using a small number of piers passing through it. The Courts are more of a problem as either there must be a sharpish curve or they must come down. Other public buildings of the era have been declared "life expired", or wrongly sited so its condition would be of interest. After then one is almost in line with BI. Where one would site a new station I leave to others as the battery in my crayon is now really flat.

I am not saying that the above should be done or is the economic, technical or political optimum, just one should rarely use absolutes. Please don't nitpick with details.

I would love to see the costs of all this and remember that a railway is more than planting tracks like a Hornby train set.

What are the ground conditions like?

Will the viaduct float over the shopping centre or are you going to be drilling through it?

What are the conditions like for piling?

Will you get planning consent so close to so many listed buildings?

You already mention the law courts but you can’t just assume they’re ready to be knocked down and replaced.

Something else that is always ignored is that although you may be facing the Interchange in your plan you’d have to dig it back down to the old level to get up the bank to Mill Lane.

How much would land purchase cost? Which buildings need demolishing? How much would it cost to recompense and relocate the owners (rail crayonistas love a good land grab demolition it would seem).

I know you didn’t want any nitpicking but sadly anything you post will be nitpicked if it needs to be, these assumptions can’t be left unchecked.

 

[30907]

There is however a core section in the middle, which does cut through part of the shopping centre. Had more thought been given at the time of design, this could have been purposed to offer a short route through.

As the crow flies, the route lies west of the present Broadway Centre; the buildings that cause a detour are mostly (at a guess) 50s-80s apart from the Natwest Bank, but the detour (Market St - Bridge St) is around 100m, which is not that much.