First ever penalty fine

[Gooner265]

My wife and I received penalty fines last week on a connecting train from Morpeth to Newcastle. We decided to get a train earlier because it was only a 11 minute turnaround and wanted to make sure we were there in plenty of time. They were advanced first class tickets but the connection is northern train or transpennine. I understand you usually have to get a specific train but didnt think the connecting train would be an issue as I have done this before on the way up on southeastern from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras.
Even then I offered to pay again for single fares to Newcastle from Morpeth but he insisted on giving us penalty fines. Its not as if we were fare dodging just trying to make sure we got our connecting train but was insistent. He only just wrote the tickets out in time as we arrived and even quipped he could have charged us first class fines even though we were in second . It was a trans pennine train. I just think it's harsh but my question is , is there any point appealing or am I wasting my time.
Our fines were £104.50 or half if paid within 21 days.

 

[Watershed]

Could you upload a picture of your booking confirmation, ticket and Penalty Fare, with any identifying details such as name, reference numbers, ticket numbers and barcodes obscured?

This will enable us to identify what ticket you held and whether or not the Penalty Fare was issued correctly.

As unfair as it is, in general the rule for Advance tickets is that you must stick to the exact itinerary and trains you select when booking. There are some exceptions but essentially if a train is listed on your ticket then you need to take it. There are some sites that will allow you to specify more time for changes, if that's something you'd like, but you have to choose it at the time of booking.

 

[Deafdoggie]

As Watershed said, we do need to see the paperwork. But, possibly, the train you should have caught was unreserved so catching a different one would have been fine, it's just you caught a reservable TP train instead.

That said, I doubt it. As the guard would not know what train you should have been on if it wasn't a reserved connection.

 

[Gooner265]

These are the tickets , the one we should have got would be a two carriage unreserved northern train , the same as we came up on .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2024 ==

These are the tickets , the one we should have got would be a two carriage unreserved northern train , the same as we came up on .

 

[Pushpit]

Just to say that I think it's harsh, it's not just you. (Mind you, were you something like 50 minutes early at Morpeth?!)

As someone who uses Morpeth in similar ways to you, it is a known issue locally, TP (and sometimes Northern) will do this on short hops (by local standards), the argument that I've heard from guards is "our train company is not being paid to have you on board", and a silly convoluted version around "insurance cover". Unfortunately unless there is some error in the details here, I suspect you will have to pay up and put it down to experience. It would have been a few pounds more expensive if it was the other way around and you were on an incorrect Northern service. Given the lower fares from Newcastle, it's often better to split the ticket anyway, you get a lot more flexibility and usually for little or no extra cost.

In the medium term Morpeth has a high chance of ending up in a PTE arrangement with Newcastle, once the Northumberland Line and new mayoralty get bedded in.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you upload a copy of the notice with your details redacted? It is possible there may be a chance of a successful appeal if the notice has been made out improperly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Gooner265. Welcome to the forum.

Just to clarify, was your booked connecting train, from Morpeth to Newcastle, last Saturday, the 1155 (Northern Trains) service, whereas you instead boarded the 1104 (Transpennine Express) train, running some fifty minutes earlier?

 

[swt_passenger]

My wife and I received penalty fines last week on a connecting train from Morpeth to Newcastle. We decided to get a train earlier because it was only a 11 minute turnaround and wanted to make sure we were there in plenty of time. They were advanced first class tickets but the connection is northern train or transpennine. I understand you usually have to get a specific train but didnt think the connecting train would be an issue as I have done this before on the way up on southeastern from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras.

I suppose back when advances first became common, it was indeed common for the ‘and connections’ leg to be unspecified and generally unreserved. Since then it seems from reports here to have become very common, especially in the north, for advance fares bookings to have all the legs reservable, even those 15 minute hops on short local DMUs.

In my opinion TPE and Northern seem to me to be issuing PFs to each others ‘advance fare’ customers on short legs that would never have been bookable a few years ago. Last minute sales of advance fares for TOC defined trains being made available when people are stood waiting on the platform seem to be a high priority for them, and I think this decision leads inevitably to your situation.

 

[Gooner265]

Yes correct , 11.55 from Morpeth, it was purely to make sure we were in Newcastle in timescale of any delays/cancellations , its never been an issue in the past on connecting trains. I've never dodged a fare in my life as I hate them with a passion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2024 ==

Just to add we were planning to catch the northern train 5 min later but taxi got us there early, I'm guessing if we'd got that it would have been a different outcome. Struggling to upload photo of the penalty ticket but sounds like it's not worth appealing ?

 

[gray1404]

You need to upload a copy of both penalty fare notices before we can give you bespoke advice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes correct , 11.55 from Morpeth, it was purely to make sure we were in Newcastle in timescale of any delays/cancellations , its never been an issue in the past on connecting trains. I've never dodged a fare in my life as I hate them with a passion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2024 ==

Just to add we were planning to catch the northern train 5 min later but taxi got us there early, I'm guessing if we'd got that it would have been a different outcome. Struggling to upload photo of the penalty ticket but sounds like it's not worth appealing ?

The 1155 train (the one you were apparently booked on) from Morpeth to Newcastle, last Saturday, is a Northern Trains service. If you've travelled on a TPE train, the only that seems possible at or around this time would, most likely, have been fifty-one minutes earlier at 1104. The time of issue of the PF notice will hopefully clarify, as Morpeth to Newcastle is not the longest of journeys.

 

[Gooner265]

The 1155 train (the one you were apparently booked on) from Morpeth to Newcastle, last Saturday, is a Northern Trains service. If you've travelled on a TPE train, the only that seems possible at or around this time would, most likely, have been fifty-one minutes earlier at 1104. The time of issue of the PF notice will hopefully clarify, as Morpeth to Newcastle is not the longest of journeys.

Yes we did catch the 11.04

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2024 ==

Hope this is clear

 

[John R]

Surely the reason given is incorrect “travel beyond validity”? Which if so is enough to make the PF void?

 

[Iskra]

Seems harsh when the connection reservation isn’t explained as mandatory on the itinerary.

 

[AlterEgo]

Seems harsh when the connection reservation isn’t explained as mandatory on the itinerary.

Agreed. The +connections part of Advances is really really unclear. I can’t grab the current terms and conditions, what do they say?

 

[Gooner265]

I'm at work at the moment, I'll retake the photo with the full ticket if it helps

 

[Haywain]

Seems harsh when the connection reservation isn’t explained as mandatory on the itinerary.

But that's no different to other eTickets - even those issued by the forum site saynithing different.

 

[John R]

Agreed. The +connections part of Advances is really really unclear. I can’t grab the current terms and conditions, what do they say?

On LNER’s website it is very clear that if specific connecting trains are listed then you need to travel on them. (Attachment shows the relevant term.)

 

[Gooner265]

You cant reserve seats on Northern trains to Morpeth though ?

 

[AlterEgo]

On LNER’s website it is very clear that if specific connecting trains are listed then you need to travel on them. (Attachment shows the relevant term.)

That’s interesting because it’s semi-contradicted by National Rail Enquiries:

4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

(Appropriate is not defined, and in my view this term ought to work in favour of the customer)

You cant reserve seats on Northern trains to Morpeth though ?

no, but they have reservable counted places. You should have had one on your ticket.

 

[Gooner265]

Ok , appreciate all the feedback guys, looks like it's not worth appealing. Lesson learnt for next time up there , Southeastern it's never a problem.

 

[John R]

Ok , appreciate all the feedback guys, looks like it's not worth appealing. Lesson learnt for next time up there , Southeastern it's never a problem.

Before you give up, I’d be interested if others think my point (#13) about the reason given on the PF notice being incorrect invalidates the notice. Sometime a technical point like this can be enough to get the case dropped.

 

[Hadders]

My view is it's definitelty worth appealing.

Internal Guidance issued to staff about travelling with Advance Tickets states:

Q: Can a passenger travel on any train if they are booked on specific TOC’s Advance ticket e.g. “XC &Connections”?

A: As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routing on the ticket – yes.

As a replacement for the main TOC shown on the ticket - no*. (However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office).

Q: Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?

A: Yes, if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable

The connecting train from Morpeth to Newcastle was not reservable.

 

[AlterEgo]

My view is it's definitelty worth appealing.

Internal Guidance issued to staff about travelling with Advance Tickets states:



The connecting train from Morpeth to Newcastle was not reservable.

It was a TPE train, are we sure about that?

Realtime Trains | 0933 Edinburgh to Newcastle | 15/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 0933 departure from Edinburgh to Newcastle on 15/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

It was a TPE train, are we sure about that?

Realtime Trains | 0933 Edinburgh to Newcastle | 15/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 0933 departure from Edinburgh to Newcastle on 15/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

AH, the TPE train is reservable but in this case TPE is the connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket, and the internal guidance (which to be fair, as far as I know is not in the public domain) says the passenger can travel on any connecting train.

 

[AlterEgo]

AH, the TPE train is reservable but in this case TPE is the connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket, and the internal guidance (which to be fair, as far as I know is not in the public domain) says the passenger can travel on any connecting train.

But they can only do that if they get a *non-reservable* train, as the Q+A quote says.

 

[Iskra]

But that's no different to other eTickets - even those issued by the forum site saynithing different.

True, but that’s something that ought to be rectified for clarity and to avoid expensive misunderstandings by passengers such as this one. If ‘mandatory reservation’ or ‘booked train only’ can be stated on traditional credit card-sized paper tickets, there’s absolutely no reason why it can’t appear on an M/E ticket or email itinerary. This sort of incident is what puts people off using the railways.

 

[Pushpit]

AH, the TPE train is reservable but in this case TPE is the connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket, and the internal guidance (which to be fair, as far as I know is not in the public domain) says the passenger can travel on any connecting train.

They also changed TOC, this started as Northern the connecting TOC, they travelled as TPE, hence the local staff are under the impression that "their" TOC isn't being paid on Advances shifted to other companies.

Morpeth is a bit unusual in that despite being a small station with not that many services (it used to be a big station with lots of connecting branches) there are nevertheless no fewer than 5 TOCs operating out of it. Getting an earlier train by 50 minutes is overkill to my mind, it does look like a changed booking to me rather than just hopping to Newcastle a bit early. Even the bus only takes 35 minutes.

 

[John R]

They also changed TOC, this started as Northern the connecting TOC, they travelled as TPE, hence the local staff are under the impression that "their" TOC isn't being paid on Advances shifted to other companies.

Morpeth is a bit unusual in that despite being a small station with not that many services (it used to be a big station with lots of connecting branches) there are nevertheless no fewer than 5 TOCs operating out of it. Getting an earlier train by 50 minutes is overkill to my mind, it does look like a changed booking to me rather than just hopping to Newcastle a bit early. Even the bus only takes 35 minutes.

Not really a changed booking as the main leg of their journey was unchanged. If the preceding service was 50 minutes earlier then, setting aside the terms of the ticket, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to catch it, as it was the short connection time at Newcastle that was the concern.

Ironically, had they travelled yesterday and relied on the booked service from Morpeth it was cancelled between Morpeth and Newcastle.

 

[RPI]

The PF is incorrectly issued, you didn't travel beyond validity. I would suggest appealing on that basis, it may get knocked back on first appeal but if so, come back here and others more qualified with me will assist.