Could Bradford Interchange to Leeds be Metroised?

[Topological]

Reading the discussion about Bradford in the ECML Timetable thread makes me think of the general connectivity between Bradford and Leeds.

Currently, there are two routes from Bradford Forster Square to Leeds via Shipley and from Bradford Interchange to Leeds via New Pudsey. LNER have a limited long distance service on the former, whilst Northern have longer distance services (from Manchester and Blackpool) on the latter.

LNER increasing services to Bradford Forster Square has potential to raise faster connectivity between the cities, so could be implemented with the paths of the current limited service (subject to freight)

This thread is therefore to ask whether the following changes could be sensibly implanted:

1. Route Blackpool to Leeds via Dewsbury in place of the present Manchester Victoria train that goes that way.
2. Terminate the three Manchester Victoria trains at Bradford Interchange (Assuming that for pathing the one that presently goes via Dewsbury now cannot because the Blackpool took its path)
3. Use platforms 1 and 2 at Bradford Interchange for a high-frequency service to Leeds (Ideally electrified)

Small question here is whether the remaining service (3 tph to Manchester Victoria, 1 tph to Huddersfield and the Grand Central) could work out of platforms 3 and 4, or whether there can still be some sharing of platforms 1 and 2.

Potenetial benefits on connectivity seem large and there could be new stations added between Bradford and Leeds given faster acceleration of electric trains (if electrified)

The motivation for routing the Blackpool via Dewsbury is to maintain direct connectivity between stations on the route and Leeds.

The biggest disadvantage is the reduced direct connectivity between Halifax and Leeds. Whether the suggested frequencies partially alleviate the issue I am unsure. If a second path could be found via Dewsbury for a Manchester Victoria and the Blackpool to go that way it would be good.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Does Bradford have sufficent terminating capacity in its current state ?

Will Bradford have sufficent terminating capacity if its made into a through station ?

Are you aware that Northern are procuring some bimodes ?

 

[Topological]

Does Bradford have sufficent terminating capacity in its current state ?

Will Bradford have sufficent terminating capacity if its made into a through station ?

Are you aware that Northern are procuring some bimodes ?

I was working on the assumption that the extra platform at Forster Square enables the LNER to go hourly (if desired)

The platforms at Interchange should be sufficient given there are limited crossing moves required.

The proposed through station is an interesting idea, but is not in place yet so is left out of this thread. The precise design of the through station could embrace the theory of this thread in any case.

Northern bimodes would be good, though I suspect there would be better uses for them if the two services I propose are split into a metro part (electric) and a longer distance part (presently almost all off wires).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bradford is an important calling point on the Blackpool service, indeed linking Bradford with Burnley and Blackburn was one of the driving forces behind the reintroduction of regular passenger services on the Copy Pit line. Diverting that service to the Dewsbury line removes that link.

 

[30907]

The biggest disadvantage is the reduced direct connectivity between Halifax and Leeds. Whether the suggested frequencies partially alleviate the issue I am unsure.

Well, you've replaced 4 through trains per hour with 4 connections - a significant disbenefit. Or are you adding a 2tph shuttle so the frequencies match?

 

[JKF]

Most of the route was four tracked, so no reason you can’t have a metro type service by reinstating the missing two tracks, perhaps as part of a Leeds tram system rather than heavy rail. It might have to go on the old route via Pudsey proper, as long as they haven’t filled the tunnel in yet.

 

[Topological]

Bradford is an important calling point on the Blackpool service, indeed linking Bradford with Burnley and Blackburn was one of the driving forces behind the reintroduction of regular passenger services on the Copy Pit line. Diverting that service to the Dewsbury line removes that link.

I did wonder about whether that service could still run between a stopping metro, but it got back to the problem of long-distance services eating paths. The proposal sent that via Dewsbury to maintain the direct Leeds link.

For Manchester, there are plenty of direct Leeds trains via Huddersfield so terminating at Bradford seemed less of an imposition.

Assuming that the Bradford - Leeds were every 10 minutes or better then the direct/connection contrast is not that large (especially since the trains reverse at Interchange currently anyway)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Most of the route was four tracked, so no reason you can’t have a metro type service by reinstating the missing two tracks, perhaps as part of a Leeds tram system rather than heavy rail. It might have to go on the old route via Pudsey proper, as long as they haven’t filled the tunnel in yet.

That would be good, I just constrained the proposal to extant infrastructure.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Most of the route was four tracked, so no reason you can’t have a metro type service by reinstating the missing two tracks, perhaps as part of a Leeds tram system rather than heavy rail. It might have to go on the old route via Pudsey proper, as long as they haven’t filled the tunnel in yet.

Yeah, good luck with that....there is just about enough room to squeeze in another line between Leeds and Bramley, you would need a new bridge over the bypass and significant earthworks on the south side of the formation as the earthwork crest is simply not wide enough anymore along a lot of the route to get two tracks in.

Then after Bramley it gets really difficult. There is no space at all between Bramley and New Pudsey and the route between Bramley and Pudsey only has the following obstacles:

A housing estate
A large factory
An industrial estate
The ring road/stanningley bypass
A housing estate
Playing fields
A housing estate
A housing estate
A housing estate
A small industrial estate
Whatever state the tunnel is in
An embankment after the tunnel that is essentially derelict
An inudstrial estate

And then you still only have 2 tracks into Bradford...

 

[Neptune]

It’s strange that most threads regarding Bradford seem to end up in unrealistic grandiose schemes yet here is one that does the complete opposite by disconnecting through Bradford services.

Halifax and to a lesser extent Low Moor have significant traffic to Leeds yet this scheme enforces a change at Bradford. Likewise in the other direction. There has always been commuter traffic from Pudsey towards Halifax and beyond to Manchester yet again we have an enforced change. Yes there may just about be space for all these terminating trains (although I have serious doubts) you are also forcing huge amounts of changing passengers in opposing directions in a very constrained space.

Also the popular Blackpool trains missing key traffic at stations such as Bradford and Halifax would be a huge negative. You also lose the very popular direct trains from this part of West Yorkshire direct to East Leeds and beyond to York and Hull.

I’m all for improving connectivity with good solid connections where there aren’t current through services but to break up a perfectly workable and popular group of through services to provide a Metro between the county’s 2 largest cities and disconnecting one of its largest towns from the main destination in the county is absolutely bonkers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I did wonder about whether that service could still run between a stopping metro, but it got back to the problem of long-distance services eating paths. The proposal sent that via Dewsbury to maintain the direct Leeds link.

For Manchester, there are plenty of direct Leeds trains via Huddersfield so terminating at Bradford seemed less of an imposition.

Assuming that the Bradford - Leeds were every 10 minutes or better then the direct/connection contrast is not that large (especially since the trains reverse at Interchange currently anyway)

The current Wigan via Brighouse service is an important link between North Kirklees (Dewsbury and Batley) and Rochdale/Oldham (with the tram), so removing that would inconvenience a lot of passengers. The current split of Calder Valley services is probably the best compromise.

The reversal at Interchange is a bit of a red herring, it doesn't add all that much to the overall journey time. I appreciate you aren't proposing a cross-Bradford link here, but "reversal anxiety" is behind lot of the proposed "solutions" for Bradford including the Council's current "Gateway" station.

 

[stevieinselby]

There's currently a 15 minute frequency calling at Bramley and New Pudsey – how frequent do you want to run the service?
And why can't you run the extra trains in between the existing services if you want to increase the frequency?

The loss of through services between Leeds and Halifax/Calder Valley, and between York and Bradford/Halifax, would be quite an inconvenience to passengers, and I can't see what the benefit of the scheme would be apart from a couple of potential new stations at Wortley and Laisterdyke ... but is that really worth disrupting established travel patterns and severing important connections for? In 2022/23, the most common destination from Halifax was Leeds, with more than twice as many passengers as Bradford, and even York was in 8th place. From Bradford Interchange, York was the 5th most popular destination.

 

[Topological]

There's currently a 15 minute frequency calling at Bramley and New Pudsey – how frequent do you want to run the service?
And why can't you run the extra trains in between the existing services if you want to increase the frequency?

The loss of through services between Leeds and Halifax/Calder Valley, and between York and Bradford/Halifax, would be quite an inconvenience to passengers, and I can't see what the benefit of the scheme would be apart from a couple of potential new stations at Wortley and Laisterdyke ... but is that really worth disrupting established travel patterns and severing important connections for? In 2022/23, the most common destination from Halifax was Leeds, with more than twice as many passengers as Bradford, and even York was in 8th place. From Bradford Interchange, York was the 5th most popular destination.

It was really about the potential for extra stations and development opportunities.

IF the longer-distance trains could be flighted through then that works, the danger in my mind was that the longer-distance stuff would cause too many conflicts. There is nothing physically stopping the longer-distance trains being run slower if direct is seen as that important.

15 minutes is quite a long gap when comparing against similar routes like Birmingham to Wolverhampton. That is a mixed mode link, but we see the challenges created on that two track line.

 

[rapmastaj]

Bradford to Leeds is one of the first routes planned for a long-awaited West Yorkshire Mass Transit. From what I can tell, the plan seems to be to use the rail corridor, adding in stops at Armley and Laisterdyke. But I'm pretty sure they plan to do this while continuing to have the existing through services to Manchester / Blackpool etc. How exacly this will happen I don't know.

 

[Manutd1999]

It wouldn't be acceptable to remove direct links between Halifax and Leeds.

I've crayonista-ed before about re-opening a third platform at Halifax to enable a 4ph "West Yorkshire metro" type service from Leeds to Halifax via Bradford, with 2ph continuing to Brighouse and Huddersfield. The problem is you still need services from Manchester and Preston-Bradford-Leeds, so you end up with a ridiculous amount of trains between Halifax and Bradford.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Bradford to Leeds is one of the first routes planned for a long-awaited West Yorkshire Mass Transit. From what I can tell, the plan seems to be to use the rail corridor, adding in stops at Armley and Laisterdyke. But I'm pretty sure they plan to do this while continuing to have the existing through services to Manchester / Blackpool etc. How exacly this will happen I don't know.

Presumably they are contemplating tram trains (heaven forbid)

More stations will be interesting as WYCA own rail strategy is now against new stations if they increase journey times.

 

[cle]

I can't see that Batley and Rochdale is so important.

But Tod, Hebden, Halifax etc no longer having a service to Leeds is a big miss. The easiest way would be to add 1-2 shuttle frequencies to fill in gaps - and advertise the combined service as 6tph or whatever, or 'every 10 mins' like buses seem to do.

 

[JKF]

I think there are two problems that need solving:

1. Train times between the two cities are too slow/indirect for such a short distance, more fast intercity type connections would benefit Bradford.
2. There are several well populated areas between the two cities that would benefit from new stations, and a frequent tram or metro type service would benefit these suburbs, some of which are economically deprived.

Both ciities have main stations in excellent central locations which make train travel desirable.

I think NPR if it had been designed as a new high speed line could have solved both these problems, but that would have made the route to Manchester less direct and consequently increase travel times, particularly if it had to bend back down to pick up Huddersfield.

So I don’t really know how it can be resolved, perhaps electrification, speed improvements and passing places on the line via New Pudsey would be a reasonable compromise for now? It always feels like a slow chug up to Bramley on what is a fairly straight track, would electrification help here? Where could you put a passing loop - there is space in a few places due to the former formation width - maybe one on the down side at Bramley (access would need redesigning, but no bad thing given the current down pedestrian route) and on the up somewhere further towards Bradford?

 

[Neptune]

I think there are two problems that need solving:

1. Train times between the two cities are too slow/indirect for such a short distance, more fast intercity type connections would benefit Bradford.

It’s around 20 minutes, how much faster do you want it? You can only go where the tracks are.

2. There are several well populated areas between the two cities that would benefit from new stations, and a frequent tram or metro type service would benefit these suburbs, some of which are economically deprived.

Surely a Metro of some sort would be of more benefit on a new route serving the suburbs at either end properly (street running in the town centres for instance). Otherwise you’re slowing down what you already call a slow service.

Both ciities have main stations in excellent central locations which make train travel desirable.

I think NPR if it had been designed as a new high speed line could have solved both these problems, but that would have made the route to Manchester less direct and consequently increase travel times, particularly if it had to bend back down to pick up Huddersfield.

I have grave doubts that NPR will ever happen. There’s more chance of a West Yorkshire Metro.

So I don’t really know how it can be resolved, perhaps electrification, speed improvements and passing places on the line via New Pudsey would be a reasonable compromise for now? It always feels like a slow chug up to Bramley on what is a fairly straight track, would electrification help here? Where could you put a passing loop - there is space in a few places due to the former formation width - maybe one on the down side at Bramley (access would need redesigning, but no bad thing given the current down pedestrian route) and on the up somewhere further towards Bradford?

The New Pudsey route is due to be electrified in the next few years which will help speed things up on the slog out of the Interchange although the 195’s flatten the bank compared to the 15x units they replaced (think how slow a heavy 155 was up the bank around St Dunstans up to Laisterdyke). New bi-modes will speed things up somewhat.

Not sure what passing loops would achieve. It would just slow services down. The only space for any loops would be at the Leeds end anyway so not much use as it wouldn’t allow for a decent spread at that end.

The current spread of services works (half hourly Man Vic, York - Blackpool and Hull - Halifax allowing a decent spread with good end locations to allow for connectivity).

The other route has a good half hourly electric Metro service stopping at all stations which are the main suburbs at either end. It would be better if these services ran until end of service though. The 2 hourly London services in the future will give fast services between the 2 cities.

 

[bluenoxid]

If they built a separate NPR high speed line into Bradford, then conversion of the existing line into something more like an every 6-10 minutes metro route encompassing Halifax would be something on the cards. The challenges are where to send these new services at either end. At the Leeds end, do we have the beginning of a burgeoning light rail system for Leeds? At the Bradford end, is it somewhere “400 miles” outside of the city centre or dropped into the centre somewhere.

The challenge is that shaving a few minutes here and there or boosting frequency on a relatively frequent route is not going to deal with much of the horror show that many of the non-rail served corridors experience in this area.

 

[YorksLad12]

It’s around 20 minutes, how much faster do you want it? You can only go where the tracks are.

This being Speculative Discussion... turning the station counter-clockwise 45 degrees means you could avoid the Mill Lane curve by running through the former Adolphus station site and joining the existing route at Laisterdyke. That would mean a hefty amount of demolition though! The Interchange is falling down, but you could rebuild the us bit underneath the rail station. Is it time for my meds yet, nurse?

Surely a Metro of some sort would be of more benefit on a new route serving the suburbs at either end properly (street running in the town centres for instance). Otherwise you’re slowing down what you already call a slow service.

Indeed, and I still think it most likely that the Bradford-Leeds tram will use the A647 as far as Pudsey and the B6157 to get to Bramley (although it does get close to the railway line at one point) and beyond, then back onto the A647 at Stanningley.

The New Pudsey route is due to be electrified in the next few years which will help speed things up on the slog out of the Interchange although the 195’s flatten the bank compared to the 15x units they replaced (think how slow a heavy 155 was up the bank around St Dunstans up to Laisterdyke). New bi-modes will speed things up somewhat.

Is there really a plan for that? Network North doesn't count

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think it's possible, if you built 1) the through link to Forster Square station and onwards to Leeds for Calder Valley services (realistically, due to well publicised issues, the Interchange needs rebuilding anyway so a 2 through platform, 2 terminating arrangement at a lower level and 2 above for the proposed metro) and 2) converted Leeds to Bradford Interchange to metro, with a street running tram section from west of Holbeck jcn to Leeds bus station.

You could add provision at the Bradford end for a street extension as far as Leeds Bradford Airport via Eccleshill and Yeadon as well - issue is that finding funding for both the Interchange to Forster Square link, and the metro conversion will prove difficult.

I would suggest building the city centre link in conjuction with a rebuilding of Interchange station to the design suggested above, then 2 light rail platforms can be left waiting ready for any funded light rail/ projects to the south of the Interchange in future.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I think it's possible, if you built 1) the through link to Forster Square station and onwards to Leeds for Calder Valley services (realistically, due to well publicised issues, the Interchange needs rebuilding anyway so a 2 through platform, 2 terminating arrangement at a lower level and 2 above for the proposed metro) and 2) converted Leeds to Bradford Interchange to metro, with a street running tram section from west of Holbeck jcn to Leeds bus station.

You could add provision at the Bradford end for a street extension as far as Leeds Bradford Airport via Eccleshill and Yeadon as well - issue is that finding funding for both the Interchange to Forster Square link, and the metro conversion will prove difficult.

I would suggest building the city centre link in conjuction with a rebuilding of Interchange station to the design suggested above, then 2 light rail platforms can be left waiting ready for any funded light rail/ projects to the south of the Interchange in future.

Ding ding ding.

Bradford crossrail bingo

 

[Neptune]

I think it's possible, if you built 1) the through link to Forster Square station and onwards to Leeds for Calder Valley services (realistically, due to well publicised issues, the Interchange needs rebuilding anyway so a 2 through platform, 2 terminating arrangement at a lower level and 2 above for the proposed metro) and 2) converted Leeds to Bradford Interchange to metro, with a street running tram section from west of Holbeck jcn to Leeds bus station.

You could add provision at the Bradford end for a street extension as far as Leeds Bradford Airport via Eccleshill and Yeadon as well - issue is that finding funding for both the Interchange to Forster Square link, and the metro conversion will prove difficult.

I would suggest building the city centre link in conjuction with a rebuilding of Interchange station to the design suggested above, then 2 light rail platforms can be left waiting ready for any funded light rail/ projects to the south of the Interchange in future.

Oh my goodness it never takes long for Bradford Crossrail to raise its head.

I reiterate (as every time).

How are you getting around the city centre and its newly built shopping centre? How are you getting around the huge height difference? How are you getting around the fact that you’d have to re-dig out the gradient at the Interchange which would involve closing Bridge Street and re-introducing a bridge to carry the road? That’s just the minor stuff!

 

[yoyothehobo]

What i would change, assuming that this route gets electrified would be the following.

Terminate the BPN-YRK at Leeds. Whenever i use this service there is a major change of passengers at Leeds. This service also massively spreads delays.
Run one all stops Bradford to York via Leeds per hour to replace these stops (with electrification picking up a stop at Bramley shouldnt be a timeloss)
One Leeds-Man Vic and one Leeds-Chester per hour can give you a total or 4tph each way
Potentially run the Halifax-Hull starting at Bradford via Brighouse, though you may have to add a 5th platform at Bradford for that. You could even just take it via wakefield and castleford avoiding Leeds.

Do I really think these changes are worthwhile, not really, i just want a direct train from York to Bramley without changes

 

[Neptune]

Potentially run the Halifax-Hull starting at Bradford via Brighouse, though you may have to add a 5th platform at Bradford for that. You could even just take it via wakefield and castleford avoiding Leeds.

The whole point of this service was to give Leeds - Hull a second train per hour so avoiding Leeds (the main traffic source for the service) would render it pretty pointless.

 

[yoyothehobo]

The whole point of this service was to give Leeds - Hull a second train per hour so avoiding Leeds (the main traffic source for the service) would render it pretty pointless.

fair enough, i was wondering where it appeared from.

It is a service that could massively benefit from different timing through Leeds as it frequently holds up the following 0808 XC and 0813 TPE services, normally when it gets held up by the preceding Blackpool to York service out of Bradford. The dwell time of the 158 at the stations east of Leeds causes chaos. I understand that you cant have perfect timing everywhere. So unless you can really cut down the stops at Cross Gates-Garforth-East Garforth-Micklefield it does cause issues.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Services seem pretty evenly spaced at present so if you added stations at Armley and Laisterdyke could you not remove the existing Bramley and New Pudsey stops from existing services and flight a stopper every 15 minutes from Leeds to Bradford stopping at the four intermediate stations behind the faster services improving connectivity for Armley and Laisterdyke and improving longer distance journey times? Obviously would be dependent on paths and platform space at Leeds.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If they built a separate NPR high speed line into Bradford, then conversion of the existing line into something more like an every 6-10 minutes metro route encompassing Halifax would be something on the cards. The challenges are where to send these new services at either end. At the Leeds end, do we have the beginning of a burgeoning light rail system for Leeds? At the Bradford end, is it somewhere “400 miles” outside of the city centre or dropped into the centre somewhere.

The challenge is that shaving a few minutes here and there or boosting frequency on a relatively frequent route is not going to deal with much of the horror show that many of the non-rail served corridors experience in this area.

If you are going to build a new line you dont neccesarily need to build it to & from Bradford. You could build it from Low Moor then follow the M62 to joining the Transpennine route just before Leeds shortly after Morley tunnel.

I think that would be the best option if you wanted to convert the existing line via New Pudsey into a dedicated Metro option. Which I believe is the only way to create a reliable Metro service between Leeds & Bradford.

Oh my goodness it never takes long for Bradford Crossrail to raise its head.

I reiterate (as every time).

How are you getting around the city centre and its newly built shopping centre? How are you getting around the huge height difference? How are you getting around the fact that you’d have to re-dig out the gradient at the Interchange which would involve closing Bridge Street and re-introducing0 a bridge to carry the road? That’s just the minor stuff!

Why is it that everytime Bradford crossrail gets a mention there is someone talking it down...

Presuming it has to extend through the buffers at the interchange...

Presuning it has to meet Forster Square at ground level...

Presuming you would have to demolish the Broadway shopping centre.

Why ?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Services seem pretty evenly spaced at present so if you added stations at Armley and Laisterdyke could you not remove the existing Bramley and New Pudsey stops from existing services and flight a stopper every 15 minutes from Leeds to Bradford stopping at the four intermediate stations behind the faster services improving connectivity for Armley and Laisterdyke and improving longer distance journey times? Obviously would be dependent on paths and platform space at Leeds.

Yes, lets improve the service by removing stops. At stations which between them get 800,000-1,000,000 passengers a year.

New Pudsey is a major source of traffic on the route with a large car park off the Leeds ring road. Bramley already gets fewer services than New Pudsey.

If you are going to build a new line you dont neccesarily need to build it to & from Bradford. You could build it from Low Moor then follow the M62 to joining the Transpennine route just before Leeds shortly after Morley tunnel.

I think that would be the best option if you wanted to convert the existing line via New Pudsey into a dedicated Metro option. Which I believe is the only way to create a reliable Metro service between Leeds & Bradford.



Why is it that everytime Bradford crossrail gets a mention there is someone talking it down...

Presuming it has to extend through the buffers at the interchange...

Presuning it has to meet Forster Square at ground level...

Presuming you would have to demolish the Broadway shopping centre.

Why ?

Its talked down because its a terrible idea and has no real benefit for a massive cost.

Interchange is 12m higher than Forster Square, there is approximately 700m between the buffer stops which is not insignificant gradient.

So assuming it went lower than the buffer stops at Interchange you have a significant gradient to get in before the junction to Leeds

It has to meet Forster Square at Ground Level as you cant raise that station due to interfaces with other things and if you lower it, you need to lower the track further at Interchange or lower it North of Forster Square. Good luck putting those through any cost benefit study.

And demolishing the broadway shopping centre would be necessary due to unique way matter interacts with other matter and the immutable laws of physics.

 

[Neptune]

Why is it that everytime Bradford crossrail gets a mention there is someone talking it down...

Because it’s unworkable. Nobody can ever come up with a way this could even remotely work.

Presuming it has to extend through the buffers at the interchange..

Where else then? And it wouldn’t be ‘through’ the buffers, it would need to be dug down below the buffers to clear Bridge Street to the original level at great cost and disruption.

Presuming it has to meet Forster Square at ground level...

Well it has to get to ground level well before Hamme Strasse which is over the BDQ platforms or is it going to float?

Presuming you would have to demolish the Broadway shopping centre.

How do you clear it then? You can’t go down the side (no room + listed buildings in Little Germany) or over the top (it would then require an even steeper gradient) so what’s your solution and what makes it different from last time and the time before that and the time before that?

Why ?

I was asked for a solution last time but the magic money tree ‘rails at any cost’ folk didn’t like it (and indeed didn’t even acknowledge it). A dedicated regular free bus link between the 2 stations stopping nowhere else in between. Much, much cheaper and much more realistic.