Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[StretfordEnd96]

There are unlikely to be any cuts in the near future (if only because it would look bad politically - but they know how much the current network will cost in the short term).

I was talking to someone senior in the contracts department at the weekend who was saying that farebox income has been steadily increasing, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are service increases - though I wouldn't like to predict on which routes.

Thanks for your reply Deerfold. Let's hope for improvement rather than reduction.

The thing that annoys me most is when timetables are just messy and awkward without consistency - the service I mentioned for example on Saturdays has departures to Oldham at
10:50, 11:50, 12:50, 14:50, 15:50.

(Yes, a far cry than every 30 minutes all day up until 2019..)

Does the village of Greenfield go to sleep on Saturdays at 13:50?! It just looks messy.. and hopefully Bee Network can improve some of these Timetables to something more consistent.

 

[mic]

i wonder if Bee Network would consider reinstating the 562 service - Oldham to Halifax and back. This did get run by Oldham after they took over from Yorkshire Rider, Halifax. You had the 184 to Huddersfield then the ones from Rochdale.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

i wonder if Bee Network would Consider reinstating the 562 service Oldham to Halifax and back this did get run by Oldham after they took over from Yorkshire rider Halifax you have got 184 to Huddersfield then the ones from Rochdale

Did that 562 service serve Rishworth and Ripponden when it was running?

 

[mic]

Did that 562 service serve Rishworth and Ripponden when it was running?

yes it did and also Pennine Meadows where the 356 now goes

 

[StretfordEnd96]

Did that 562 service serve Rishworth and Ripponden when it was running?

Yes it did, and after Ripponden it went up to Barkisland and then Halifax rather than staying on the A58, however I believe the route beyond Ripponden to Halifax did change numerous times

To be honest the 562 was akin to two separate local services which happened to be linked together. A large portion of passengers I suspect would travel from Denshaw to Oldham and Rishworth to Halifax and vice versa, but the amount of passengers actually using it over the Pennines was relatively low, hence it led to its withdrawal.

That's in contrast to the 184 for example, which is used as a local service on both sides of the Pennines but still ferries a healthy number of passengers across the hills too

 

[M60lad]

While the daytime journeys on 562 were run out of Oldham Depot at the time the evening journeys which were interworked with 560 service to Commons were jointly run with Halifax Depot.

From what I remember there were quite a number of Oldham Drivers that enjoyed 562 route especially on the lates and would put their name down if the duty was down for overtime and needed covering.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes it did, and after Ripponden it went up to Barkisland and then Halifax rather than staying on the A58, however I believe the route beyond Ripponden to Halifax did change numerous times

That's going back a long time to when it was the 556. For its last 20 years it ran through Sowerby Bridge. One peak 556 in each direction continued for several years.

To be honest the 562 was akin to two separate local services which happened to be linked together. A large portion of passengers I suspect would travel from Denshaw to Oldham and Rishworth to Halifax and vice versa, but the amount of passengers actually using it over the Pennines was relatively low, hence it led to its withdrawal.

Much as I liked the 562, I was probably one of its most frequent users and I didn't cross the Pennines as often as weekly. I caught the 528 to Littleborough more often.

In 1993 I had a job in Chadderton and lived in Rippnden. For 10 weeks I got the 562 (or occasionally the 528) and then another bus. 4 days a week I was the only person on the bus in the morning with the same person every Wednesday. In the early evening there would be 4 or 5 people on the bus.

The Oldham to Sholver frequency has been cut to half its frequency since then. Odfham to Denshaw has been attached to another route, now. Halifax - Rishworth has gone from 3 buses an hour to 1 bus every other hour, with Rishworth having gained one bus a day to Huddersfield at times that work for college students.

I think the final straw was during the changeover to ENTCS when free local bus travel replaced various local schemes, ending the cheap agreement between West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, so older passengers had to pay full fare. If it hadn't died then. off-peak travel on ENTCS would probably have picked up..

 

[StretfordEnd96]

That's going back a long time to when it was the 556. For its last 20 years it ran through Sowerby Bridge. One peak 556 in each direction continued for several years.


Much as I liked the 562, I was probably one of its most frequent users and I didn't cross the Pennines as often as weekly. I caught the 528 to Littleborough more often.

In 1993 I had a job in Chadderton and lived in Rippnden. For 10 weeks I got the 562 (or occasionally the 528) and then another bus. 4 days a week I was the only person on the bus in the morning with the same person every Wednesday. In the early evening there would be 4 or 5 people on the bus.

The Oldham to Sholver frequency has been cut to half its frequency since then. Odfham to Denshaw has been attached to another route, now. Halifax - Rishworth has gone from 3 buses an hour to 1 bus every other hour, with Rishworth having gained one bus a day to Huddersfield at times that work for college students.

I think the final straw was during the changeover to ENTCS when free local bus travel replaced various local schemes, ending the cheap agreement between West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, so older passengers had to pay full fare. If it hadn't died then. off-peak travel on ENTCS would probably have picked up..

Thanks for the correction on the 556/Barkisland route, I understand now this was a much earlier 'edition' of the Oldham-Halifax service.

Sholver, with its huge housing estate(s), a lot of which still consists I believe of social housing, as well as Moorside/Watersheddings (very busy suburbs of Oldham) did benefit from a frequency of every 10 minutes or better to Oldham and Manchester on the 83 from its inception in 1993 - and even before then I believe the previous services 406(?) provided at least 4 buses an hour.

First Manchester did a lot of what they dubbed "tidying" (or similar) in 2019 which lead to a lot of routes split up in Oldham. 83 still provides high frequency Oldham-Manchester. New 82 from Sholver is every 15 minutes from what I remember. Whether residents of these areas think this is frequent enough I'm not sure. It's a very busy area in general that Ripponden Road.

Not familar with the term ENTCS but makes sense that it only aided the withdrawal of this service.
There have been a various amount of services and routes over the Pennines from Greater Manchester to West Yorkshire over the years, the only one in more recent times which appears to have retained a degree of success is the 184 service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Talk of possible aspirational services "that once were" and of a likely return, does anyone remember the service 34 in orange and brown livery from Manchester to Liverpool, that had its Manchester terminus in the Arndale centre underground bus station?

Even more years prior to that, there was a service 39 that had its terminus in a road tunnel (?) under Manchester Exchange railway station that I think may have carried green livery. If anyone has information on its eventual distination, I would be pleased to hear of it and the of the year it last ran.

I am now 79 years of age and well into my dotage....

 

[WibbleWobble]

Even more years prior to that, there was a service 39 that had its terminus in a road tunnel (?) under Manchester Exchange railway station that I think may have carried green livery. If anyone has information on its eventual distination, I would be pleased to hear of it and the of the year it last ran.

That would have been Greengate - in Salford but often advertised as Manchester on destination displays. This changed to the Arndale once that bus station opened.

Rather than go into too much on the 39, it has already been discussed in another thread (I elaborated more in post 50). There are scans of timetables on the Railwaymedia site.

 

[Lucy Michela]

There are unlikely to be any cuts in the near future (if only because it would look bad politically - but they know how much the current network will cost in the short term).

I was talking to someone senior in the contracts department at the weekend who was saying that farebox income has been steadily increasing, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are service increases - though I wouldn't like to predict on which routes.

There's already been service increases across the network.

The 100 has an additional bus an hour to The Trafford Centre, and has a much better timetable. In fact, I had one to Warrington on Saturday. We left 24 mins late, and ended up in Warrington 4 mins early!

But yeah, every month or two, I believe TfGM plan to roll out any timetable changes they can where possible. It's another way Bee Network will be similar to TfL - down there, as soon as a tender renews, or just if there's consistent delays noted over even a month, they roll out new timetables on routes.

 

[M60lad]

With regards to the Warrington journeys on 100 during these are allot more reliable than what they used to be and one reason for this is the amount of drop back these get in Warrington during the week as most get about 20mins there now.

Also with a quick driver and decent traffic you can leave Warrington on some journeys and still get time at Hollins Green.

 

[Statto]

Yes it did, and after Ripponden it went up to Barkisland and then Halifax rather than staying on the A58, however I believe the route beyond Ripponden to Halifax did change numerous times

To be honest the 562 was akin to two separate local services which happened to be linked together. A large portion of passengers I suspect would travel from Denshaw to Oldham and Rishworth to Halifax and vice versa, but the amount of passengers actually using it over the Pennines was relatively low, hence it led to its withdrawal.

That's in contrast to the 184 for example, which is used as a local service on both sides of the Pennines but still ferries a healthy number of passengers across the hills too

Indeed, the times i used the 562, buses were often quite empty between Ripponden & Denshaw, the 562 was mostly used for local journeys either side of the border, contrast that with the 184 were passengers do use it for through journeys between West Yorkshire & GM, as well as local journey's either side of the border.

 

[geoffk]

I returned to Manchester briefly last week 3 years after moving away from the area. Can I ask about depots as I'm a bit confused. Does TfGM now own the large depots and operators own (or lease) the small ones? Also I'm unclear where the smaller operators are based. Rotala has a depot at Eccles and I assume Bolton (is this the old First depot of does Go North West use that)? Rotala also has odd routes in the Oldham area and in Tameside and Trafford. Do they use depots nearby or just do a lot of dead mileage?

 

[mangad]

I returned to Manchester briefly last week 3 years after moving away from the area. Can I ask about depots as I'm a bit confused. Does TfGM now own the large depots and operators own (or lease) the small ones? Also I'm unclear where the smaller operators are based. Rotala has a depot at Eccles and I assume Bolton (is this the old First depot of does Go North West use that)? Rotala also has odd routes in the Oldham area and in Tameside and Trafford. Do they use depots nearby or just do a lot of dead mileage?

Rotala bought the First depot at Bolton and then it was sold to TfGM. It's now operated by Go North West as part of the Bee Network. They have a HQ in Bolton but unless I have missed something, their only depot is Eccles (they bought Go Goodwins's depot to expand into.)

 

[Leyland Bus]

Rotala bought the First depot at Bolton and then it was sold to TfGM. It's now operated by Go North West as part of the Bee Network. They have a HQ in Bolton but unless I have missed something, their only depot is Eccles (they bought Go Goodwins's depot to expand into.)

Rotala lease the former RIBBLE garage on Goodwin St in Bolton also.

 

[mangad]

Rotala lease the former RIBBLE garage on Goodwin St in Bolton also.

Ah, the one Arriva had. I obviously missed something then

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Leyland Bus]

Ah, the one Arriva had. I obviously missed something then

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

That's the one, still owned by the Jarvis (of Blue Bus fame) family apparently...

 

[Bungle965]

Let’s keep on topic shall we, if anyone wishes to carry on the conversation on the bus depots please feel free to create another thread

​

 

[geoffk]

I worked for GMPTE/TfGM until 2007 and, since then, there has been a steady reduction in the commercial network, much of which wasn't replaced as its removal could be blamed on the operator. This will no longer be the case, and there may well be increased political pressure to maintain unviable and costly services at public expense. There are also many examples of indirect services formed by rolling several routes into one to save money but resulting in long end-to-end journey times - described as "Heineken routes" by one of my former work colleagues!

Clearly painting the buses yellow won't make them run on time but extended dwell times at bus stops are also a major cause of delay. This arises from the UK's attachment to single-door buses and the need for every passenger to have an interaction with the driver. Perhaps the aim should be to match the dwell times of trams - can franchising achieve that?

 

[Mollman]

I worked for GMPTE/TfGM until 2007 and, since then, there has been a steady reduction in the commercial network, much of which wasn't replaced as its removal could be blamed on the operator. This will no longer be the case, and there may well be increased political pressure to maintain unviable and costly services at public expense. There are also many examples of indirect services formed by rolling several routes into one to save money but resulting in long end-to-end journey times - described as "Heineken routes" by one of my former work colleagues!

Clearly painting the buses yellow won't make them run on time but extended dwell times at bus stops are also a major cause of delay. This arises from the UK's attachment to single-door buses and the need for every passenger to have an interaction with the driver. Perhaps the aim should be to match the dwell times of trams - can franchising achieve that?

TfGM could specify dual door vehicles although that comes at the cost of capacity (especially seats in the low floor area). Most people hope that ticketing technology can improve dwell times, hence the push by some operators to buy on their app in advance. Tap-on Tap-off in theory would help but would probably require a stand alone tap-on reader to be quicker.

There are other technology providers out there that TfGM could impose on Greater Manchester, especially when it takes over local rail. These include GPS based and Bluetooth beacon tracking and thus just require the passenger to board the vehicle (although in practice there is often a barcode involved to comply with revenue protection requirements)

The one thing that won't solve it is smart card ticketing - the Oyster Card in London is not ITSO compliant as it was developed before the standards were introduced. ITSO takes longer for a ticket machine to read as it is designed to be able to store multiple products at once whilst Oyster is only 'pay as you go' or a single prepaid ticket.

 

[geoffk]

The 10 / 10A really should be renumbered to 600 / 601 as that's what the numbers were before Stagecoach changed them

Oh 7 should be 540, the 8 / 598, & the 9 / 659 if they went back to the old numbers, here's a Wigan South map from 2014 with the old number system

GM Wigan South Map 311014.pdf

drive.google.com

I see we still have two services 18, 74 and 344 but no doubt this can be sorted out when tranche 3 comes in. Also two different services 602 quite close together in the Wigan/Ashton-in-Makerfield area, one of which is an out-county service. Renumbering of course requires changes to bus stop flags and shelters so TfGM will want to keep it to a minimum. I was surprised to see route leaflets at Shude Hill bus station, but was told there are no printed maps.

 

[mancbus]

Also will they bring back services such as the 168 as that route has been requested by public to be brought back for years.

 

[geoffk]

Also will they bring back services such as the 168 as that route has been requested by public to be brought back for years.

Didn't the 150 replace part of it?

 

[mancbus]

Didn't the 150 replace part of it?

Yeah but the public doesn’t really like the route and even Stagecoach was about to withdraw the 150

 

[M60lad]

If 168 was brought back and maybe replaced 150 considering 168 used to run to/from Ashton maybe it would give Ashton a service to Trafford Centre.

Actually I wonder if there's any call for a service from Ashton-Trafford Centre? Considering M60 is nearby it could run via M60 for part or the whole route.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Actually I wonder if there's any call for a service from Ashton-Trafford Centre? Considering M60 is nearby it could run via M60 for part or the whole route.

Called getting the tram into central and changing

 

[geoffk]

I remember the 58 from Rochdale to the Trafford Centre via Oldham, Middleton and the M60. That's been gone for a while now, in fact there's no 58 at all. As dodecahedron67 says, the tram provides many of these links now.

 

[mancbus]

Called getting the tram into central and changing

But the 168 from Ashton to Chorlton was a vital route for a lot of people and when it got withdrawn it got a lot of complaints for people and it was even on Manchester evening news. Considering how they're bringing buses under public control they should probably bring back this. important route for the community.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But the 168 from Ashton to Chorlton was a vital route for a lot of people and when it got withdrawn it got a lot of complaints for people and it was even on Manchester evening news. Considering how they're bringing buses under public control they should probably bring back this. important route for the community.

When did the 168 get axed? If it wasn't viable then, and a few years have passed, what passenger numbers would be now?