GOT CAUGHT USING 11-15 OYSTER. HELP!!

[Starmill]

My guess is that the University care very little about whether you broke a Transport for London Byelaw or not. The problem I'd guess they've got is whether your specific offence and circumstances are evidence of dishonesty, unlike many similar offences, which would only be evidence of simple carelessness of the rules. Unfortunately you can't really argue that they aren't evidence of that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2024 ==

I’ll take a look into a solicitor. Thanks though

What a solicitor could do is ensure that the Court hears your mitigation properly. But as others have pointed out you don't seem to have any which, on being thoroughly heard, will have a meaningful reduction in your sentence.

The sentence itself isn't going to be life-changingly bad for you in the long run. I appreciate it probably feels like it will be in the short term, and clearly it's very regrettable, but try not to respond to it with thoughts about how you can't work around it. You absolutely can. People with far more serious offences in their history have still led successful lives afterwards.

 

[r4miii]

My guess is that the University care very little about whether you broke a Transport for London Byelaw or not. The problem I'd guess they've got is whether your specific offence and circumstances are evidence of dishonesty, unlike many similar offences, which would only be evidence of simple carelessness of the rules. Unfortunately you can't really argue that they aren't evidence of that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2024 ==


What a solicitor could do is ensure that the Court hears your mitigation properly. But as others have pointed out you don't seem to have any which, on being thoroughly heard, will have a meaningful reduction in your sentence.

The sentence itself isn't going to be life-changingly bad for you in the long run. I appreciate it probably feels like it will be in the short term, and clearly it's very regrettable, but try not to respond to it with thoughts about how you can't work around it. You absolutely can. People with far more serious offences in their history have still led successful lives afterwards.

i did not even specify what the sjp was for, i just asked a query as this was before i recieved the sjp letter. they said whatever it is will make them withdraw your offer.

is this one of those offences which can be spent and unspent?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

I would wait and see if convicted. Then if so ask the university in writing. Setting out the detail of the specific conviction in what you ask.

have i not already been convicted? i thought sjp = conviction?

 

[AlterEgo]

i did not even specify what the sjp was for, i just asked a query as this was before i recieved the sjp letter. they said whatever it is will make them withdraw your offer.

You need to be specific with them then. This is a minor Bylaw offence.

is this one of those offences which can be spent and unspent?

It will be spent after a year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==


have i not already been convicted? i thought sjp = conviction?

No, your case hasn’t been heard yet!

 

[pedr]

have i not already been convicted? i thought sjp = conviction?

The way the Single Justice Procedure works is that the court will set aside time for a magistrate to look at the list of SJP cases on a particular day (magistrates are also called 'justices of the peace', which is why it's called the single justice procedure, because one magistrate deals with each case, rather than a group of three).

When your case is on that list, the magistrate will see the form you send back and read all of the information from you and from TfL. The magistrate will then make a decision; if you indicate a guilty plea on the form the magistrate will accept that (in their head; they'll do this in an office, I expect, and read and think through the details rather than holding any kind of formal hearing) and then they'll work out what the sentence is, based on the guidelines and the financial information.

They'll write that down including the amount of the fine, the surcharge, the compensation, etc, and then a court official will send you a letter. The letter should say the date that this was processed - that will be the date that the conviction happened. The conviction will be 'spent' for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 12 months after that date.

 

[WesternLancer]

i did not even specify what the sjp was for, i just asked a query as this was before i recieved the sjp letter. they said whatever it is will make them withdraw your offer.

How did you ask them (the university)? In writing? Do you have a written reply etc?

My view would be you need to wait for the process to conclude with the railway and the courts, then send a clear written letter to the university asking how the outcome of it (which you do not know yet I assume) impacts on any offer of a course.

Have a read of this for background:

Applying to university - Unlock

Aim of this information This guide aims to set out what to expect when applying to university if […]

unlock.org.uk

Have any of the things detailed in that web page been carried out by the university? Have you asked for a copy of the university's policy on the matter (and received it in writing)?

Have you had help from your school or college with you university application? If so have you asked them about this for their advice or insights.

These are the sorts of thing you probably need to be doing before giving up on your chances of the course you wish to attend.

Given the numbers of students we see on this forum with ticketing offences it's hard to image there are not plenty of students with fare evasion convictions studying in UK universities doing all sorts of courses.

 

[r4miii]

You need to be specific with them then. This is a minor Bylaw offence.


It will be spent after a year.


No, your case hasn’t been heard yet!

oh i see, do you know who the right people are to cal regarding this - as I have some questions before i send out the forms. i am currently on the phone to the court process number and i have been on the line for 93 mins as on right now no one has picked up

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

The way the Single Justice Procedure works is that the court will set aside time for a magistrate to look at the list of SJP cases on a particular day (magistrates are also called 'justices of the peace', which is why it's called the single justice procedure, because one magistrate deals with each case, rather than a group of three).

When your case is on that list, the magistrate will see the form you send back and read all of the information from you and from TfL. The magistrate will then make a decision; if you indicate a guilty plea on the form the magistrate will accept that (in their head; they'll do this in an office, I expect, and read and think through the details rather than holding any kind of formal hearing) and then they'll work out what the sentence is, based on the guidelines and the financial information.

They'll write that down including the amount of the fine, the surcharge, the compensation, etc, and then a court official will send you a letter. The letter should say the date that this was processed - that will be the date that the conviction happened. The conviction will be 'spent' for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 12 months after that date.

i see, thanks for clarifying. do you recommend i send any of the additional files i sent for circumstances originally? as they are asking me on the form to give my side of the story

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

How did you ask them (the university)? In writing? Do you have a written reply etc?

My view would be you need to wait for the process to conclude with the railway and the courts, then send a clear written letter to the university asking how the outcome of it (which you do not know yet I assume) impacts on any offer of a course.

Have a read of this for background:

Applying to university - Unlock

Aim of this information This guide aims to set out what to expect when applying to university if […]

unlock.org.uk

Have any of the things detailed in that web page been carried out by the university? Have you asked for a copy of the university's policy on the matter (and received it in writing)?

Have you had help from your school or college with you university application? If so have you asked them about this for their advice or insights.

These are the sorts of thing you probably need to be doing before giving up on your chances of the course you wish to attend.

Given the numbers of students we see on this forum with ticketing offences it's hard to image there are not plenty of students with fare evasion convictions studying in UK universities doing all sorts of courses.

i asked both over the phone and via email so i would have written proof if anything changed.

unfortunately i am doing a independent application.

i know you can get into university with sjp convictions or even worse but i imagine since its a healthcare course that maybe why they are being more strict?

 

[WesternLancer]

i asked both over the phone and via email so i would have written proof if anything changed.

Yes, this is what it is best to do things in writing, calling people over serious matters like this is a waste of time in my view as you are unlikely to get to speak to a person with decision making responsibility, and there is scope for confusion and misunderstandings in conversations.

unfortunately i am doing a independent application.

Thanks for explaining

i know you can get into university with sjp convictions or even worse but i imagine since its a healthcare course that maybe why they are being more strict?

OK - so if you asked the university by e-mail. What did the e-mail you sent to them say and what did they say in their reply?

You should be writing to the university's admissions office or the admissions staff responsible for the course concerned I would think.

Given the speed of your reply to my message you can't have carefully read and considered the information in the link I provided when you answered, so take some time to look at that when you can.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

since its a healthcare course

We understand your desire to keep your private life private, but please could you be more specific as to what course you are hoping to follow? Because my understanding is that the rules for being (for example) a doctor are different from those for being (again for example) a nurse - and other medical roles may have still different sets of rules.

 

[r4miii]

Yes, this is what it is best to do things in writing, calling people over serious matters like this is a waste of time in my view as you are unlikely to get to speak to a person with decision making responsibility, and there is scope for confusion and misunderstandings in conversations.

Thanks for explaining


OK - so if you asked the university by e-mail. What did the e-mail you sent to them say and what did they say in their reply?

You should be writing to the university's admissions office or the admissions staff responsible for the course concerned I would think.

Given the speed of your reply to my message you can't have carefully read and considered the information in the link I provided when you answered, so take some time to look at that when you can.

yes i wrote to admissions, i will need to find the email if you want me to copy and paste as mentioned this was prior to receiving this sjp notice as i was taking it as a precaution.

but long story short they said to me that due to the fact my court is a healthcare meaning admissions are much more stricter with ruling and dont really bend rules for applicants, and since i will be working with children and vulnerable people that having any criminal conviction would not be acceptable for an applicant as ill lose my space. they said even if it was something as small as tv licensing or speeding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

We understand your desire to keep your private life private, but please could you be more specific as to what course you are hoping to follow? Because my understanding is that the rules for being (for example) a doctor are different from those for being (again for example) a nurse - and other medical roles may have still different sets of rules.

is it ok if i tell you it is an allied healthcare course? or tell you what course it is via messages. sorry im just really paranoid and i feel really embarassed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

ALSO, I have just read this online not sure how true it is:
'If you were to plead guilty at court or to be found guilty after a trial, this is a criminal conviction. This can affect your ability to secure jobs and work. It may prevent you from travelling to certain countries, and could influence visa decisions if you are not a current British Citizen.

​

CRB checks were taken over by the Disclosure and Disbarring Service (DBS) in 2012. All criminal record checks for a job are undertaken by the DBS.

A conviction under s.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 would appear on a basic DBS check until ‘spent’. It would also appear on Standard and enhanced DBS checks until ‘filtered’ after 11 years. This can have a profound impact on someone’s career prospects, particularly in certain fields.

The conviction may also have to be disclosed on various types of visa and immigration applications.'



ANY IDEA HOW TRUE THIS IS?

 

[WesternLancer]

yes i wrote to admissions, i will need to find the email if you want me to copy and paste as mentioned this was prior to receiving this sjp notice as i was taking it as a precaution.

but long story short they said to me that due to the fact my court is a healthcare meaning admissions are much more stricter with ruling and dont really bend rules for applicants, and since i will be working with children and vulnerable people that having any criminal conviction would not be acceptable for an applicant as ill lose my space. they said even if it was something as small as tv licensing or speeding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==


is it ok if i tell you it is an allied healthcare course? or tell you what course it is via messages. sorry im just really paranoid and i feel really embarassed

Thanks for your reply. No, no need to share the content of your reply here as I'm not an expert in university course admissions.

I would, however, seek to further clarify this with the university course admissions service in writing at the end of the process with the courts when you can write to them and quote exactly what you have been found quilty of.

Personally I'd have through the course would be half empty of they exclude people with TV license offences, speeding tickets and the like....

This page might also be helpful

Working in the healthcare sector - Unlock

Aim of this page People who work in healthcare and other allied professions are part of a large and diverse […]

unlock.org.uk

 

[r4miii]

sorry to ping you guys again, but im going to fill out the form today as i dont want to keep it close to the deadline. can i ask you guys for advice based on my answer.

i just want to make it clear im sure everyone reading this will think im stupid and deserve to get this. which i will admit it 100% was my fault and i was wrong in doing so. i originally gave my circumstances to prosecution team, that i always use my bank card which i had shown proof for and i could not use this at the time due to a big scam which meant my card not usable. this has also impacted my studies as due to some health issues i had for the past few years i just about missed out on my grades hence was planning to resit where i paid someone privately to do exams with the centre who were the people who scammed me for over £1000. i do not work and this was a lot of money for me - i had borrowed most off a friend so made the situation much worse for me. i do suffer from mental health and this meant it was all affecting me very much. i barely would leave the house due to the stress and depression from the aftermath of being a victim of a scam especially when i owed someone money.

i logged the scam with my bank, which i had a case number for and i also sent this to the investigation and prosecutions team for tfl. this was the day before this incident at the train station. i was off to the hospital and was already running late - long story short had misused an oyster. i 100% hold full accountability and regret it.

since then, i havent been able to get the outcome of this out of my mind and had sent in more than one letter over the past few months to the prosecutions team.

i explained i am a gap year student and that i am very lucky to even recieve an offer without resitting (my university is aware of me being a victim to scam and hence this being an extenuating cirumstance had offered me a place). i also mentioned that once after i get my degree i would be the sole provider in income, and that i would not be able to get a place if i was taken to court or got a conviction - so i even asked for an out of court settlement.

recently, the month after this incident with tfl my dad was admitted into hospital and is still in hsopital. i visit him everyday in the morning , sometimes lunch, and the end of the day. my dad suffers from cancer and is towards the end stages. I AM NOT USING THIS AS AN EXCUSE OR FOR THE COURTS TO FEEL SORRY, but i just thought they would understand i have a lot on my plate currently. i mentioned i would like to pay the fine and if its ok deal with this as an out of court settlement and i am the main carer for my dad as of now, as my mum works 5 days a week from 7am-5pm.

i even sent them proof from the hospital stating what my dad is suffering from and when he was admitted at that he is still there.




IS THERE ANYTHING I COULD POSSIBLY DO TO AVOID THE CONVICTION? I have been told that circumstances can allow them to avoid conviction and go another route but what do you guys think

 

[Pushpit]

OK, so AHC is often a precursor to a nursing role, but it's also a (valuable) healthcare job in its own right too. Some jobs there will be DBS, others, involving children and the elderly are Enhanced DBS. Of the 3 universities that I feed workforce from, none of them would bar a byelaw offence straight out, one of them (Northumbria) has a very clear policy, and a Criminal Convictions Panel, which would look at edge cases (yours is nothing like an edge case, it's too minor). I very much doubt you would have had a definitive answer before conviction, it's more likely the Admisssion Office would say "well, we need to look at the circumstances".

https://northumbria-cdn.azureedge.net/-/media/applicant-services/admissions-policies/criminal-conviction-policy-2020.pdf?modified=20231026104430

DBS will very, very rarely show byelaw offences. It's quite rare on Enhanced DBS too, I've seen a tiny number out of the thousands that I've processed. You are not being prosecuted under RoRA, but byelaws. Filtering happens, it's a risk matrix where stuff which is irrelevant is not disclosed. Repeatedly defrauding the public, as you have done, isn't great, but it's not the worst crime out there. This has been spelled out upthread, so you may want to carefully reread some of the previous posts.

 

[r4miii]

Thanks for your reply. No, no need to share the content of your reply here as I'm not an expert in university course admissions.

I would, however, seek to further clarify this with the university course admissions service in writing at the end of the process with the courts when you can write to them and quote exactly what you have been found quilty of.

Personally I'd have through the course would be half empty of they exclude people with TV license offences, speeding tickets and the like....

This page might also be helpful

Working in the healthcare sector - Unlock

Aim of this page People who work in healthcare and other allied professions are part of a large and diverse […]

unlock.org.uk

i really appreciate your help and i did call them again today as last time i did not have a reply if i would be taken to court etc. i explained what i got the sjp for and that i will plead guilty and my circumstances surrounding this but still got the same reply.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

is it ok if i tell you it is an allied healthcare course? or tell you what course it is via messages. sorry im just really paranoid and i feel really embarassed

I think we'll have to leave it there: as a forum we have our own rule that we don't give advice off-list and to take this separately would be beginning to stretch that point. Sorry!

(edited to add) but I would also suggest you read @Pushpit's comment at post #252, which is similar to my understanding.

 

[r4miii]

OK, so AHC is often a precursor to a nursing role, but it's also a (valuable) healthcare job in its own right too. Some jobs there will be DBS, others, involving children and the elderly are Enhanced DBS. Of the 3 universities that I feed workforce from, none of them would bar a byelaw offence straight out, one of them (Northumbria) has a very clear policy, and a Criminal Convictions Panel, which would look at edge cases (yours is nothing like an edge case, it's too minor). I very much doubt you would have had a definitive answer before conviction, it's more likely the Admisssion Office would say "well, we need to look at the circumstances".

https://northumbria-cdn.azureedge.net/-/media/applicant-services/admissions-policies/criminal-conviction-policy-2020.pdf?modified=20231026104430

DBS will very, very rarely show byelaw offences. It's quite rare on Enhanced DBS too, I've seen a tiny number out of the thousands that I've processed. You are not being prosecuted under RoRA, but byelaws. Filtering happens, it's a risk matrix where stuff which is irrelevant is not disclosed. Repeatedly defrauding the public, as you have done, isn't great, but it's not the worst crime out there. This has been spelled out upthread, so you may want to carefully reread some of the previous posts.

i understand but for me to even get the job i would have to go through university and get the degree which apparently i will not be permitted to do. i have to stay in london due to my fathers health issues and because of this it really restricts my options for university. this course does not go through to clearing also.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

I think we'll have to leave it there: as a forum we have our own rule that we don't give advice off-list and to take this separately would be beginning to stretch that point. Sorry!

oh i see i assumed it would be possible as i was given advice before

 

[najaB]

A conviction under s.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 would appear on a basic DBS check until ‘spent’. It would also appear on Standard and enhanced DBS checks until ‘filtered’ after 11 years. This can have a profound impact on someone’s career prospects, particularly in certain fields.

The conviction may also have to be disclosed on various types of visa and immigration applications.'



ANY IDEA HOW TRUE THIS IS?

It is true. However TfL normally prosecute under their Byelaws rather than using the Regulation of Railways Act. Byelaw convictions are spent immediately rather than after a year. Byelaw offences are non-recordable so don't show up on basic DBS checks.

 

[r4miii]

It is true. However TfL normally prosecute under their Byelaws rather than using the Regulation of Railways Act. Byelaw convictions are spent immediately rather than after a year.

oh ok i mean i assumed everyone here would telling me it would not really affect when it comes to career as its something minor

 

[AlterEgo]

yes i wrote to admissions, i will need to find the email if you want me to copy and paste as mentioned this was prior to receiving this sjp notice as i was taking it as a precaution.

but long story short they said to me that due to the fact my court is a healthcare meaning admissions are much more stricter with ruling and dont really bend rules for applicants, and since i will be working with children and vulnerable people that having any criminal conviction would not be acceptable for an applicant as ill lose my space. they said even if it was something as small as tv licensing or speeding.

Absolute nonsense. A speeding offence will not make any difference to being accepted to a university course. It sounds like you are speaking to someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

ALSO, I have just read this online not sure how true it is:
'If you were to plead guilty at court or to be found guilty after a trial, this is a criminal conviction. This can affect your ability to secure jobs and work. It may prevent you from travelling to certain countries, and could influence visa decisions if you are not a current British Citizen.

That is true, but the extent of the effect on you depends on what the conviction is for. I am sure you will agree and understand a rapist or murderer is treated differently to someone who was caught without a valid ticket.

oh ok i mean i assumed everyone here would telling me it would not really affect when it comes to career as its something minor

That is correct. A Bylaw offence does not even try to assess your intent, just that you boarded a train without a valid ticket. Something which can even happen by accident - and still be guilty.

 

[r4miii]

the prosecution body/court is not picking up the phone after i called them about 3-4 times and for more than 90 minutes each. i really am panicking any advice?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Absolute nonsense. A speeding offence will not make any difference to being accepted to a university course. It sounds like you are speaking to someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.


That is true, but the extent of the effect on you depends on what the conviction is for. I am sure you will agree and understand a rapist or murderer is treated differently to someone who was caught without a valid ticket.


That is correct. A Bylaw offence does not even try to assess your intent, just that you boarded a train without a valid ticket. Something which can even happen by accident - and still be guilty.

i spoke to the admissions officer for my course

 

[AlterEgo]

the prosecution body/court is not picking up the phone after i called them about 3-4 times and for more than 90 minutes each. i really am panicking any advice?

What are you trying to call the court for? Have you not already submitted your plea?

 

[najaB]

oh ok i mean i assumed everyone here would telling me it would not really affect when it comes to career as its something minor

I would be surprised if a byelaw conviction caused you to lose a place on a university course. As others have said, as strict liability offences they are judged purely on the facts and are not considered to be crimes of dishonesty.

 

[r4miii]

What are you trying to call the court for? Have you not already submitted your plea?

No i havent i got the letter on Sunday to fill it out. I wanted to ask some questions before i submitted and it had the number on there to ask them directly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

I would be surprised if a byelaw conviction caused you to lose a place on a university course. As others have said, as strict liability offences they are judged purely on the facts and are not considered to be crimes of dishonesty.

Any advice on what i can do ?it was definitely the course admissions leader who told me

 

[AlterEgo]

No i havent i got the letter on Sunday to fill it out. I wanted to ask some questions before i submitted and it had the number on there to ask them directly

What questions do you have? If you are pleading guilty, the process is simple, and you can submit the plea online.

 

[najaB]

Any advice on what i can do ?it was definitely the course admissions leader who told me

Assuming you haven't figured out any reason to plead not-guilty, take the reduction in fine and then speak with the admissions team at your intended university (in person if possible) to figure out a path forwards.

 

[r4miii]

What questions do you have? If you are pleading guilty, the process is simple, and you can submit the plea online.

it wont let me do it online

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Assuming you haven't figured out any reason to plead not-guilty, take the reduction in fine and then speak with the admissions team at your intended university (in person if possible) to figure out a path forwards.

ok , so when i fill out this form what are the next steps so what does the court do after they go through my case. will i get another letter etc? what will it say

 

[WesternLancer]

ok , so when i fill out this form what are the next steps so what does the court do after they go through my case. will i get another letter etc? what will it say

see post 244 which helps explain that

 

[Fawkes Cat]

so when i fill out this form what are the next steps so what does the court do after they go through my case. will i get another letter etc? what will it say

The court will write to you. The letter will confirm that you pleaded guilty, and it will tell you how much you have to pay them. This will be based on what you have told them about your income (which may be no income at all) so it's important to answer everything truthfully.

Then you will have to pay them. If it's more than you can afford at once, you will need to get back in touch with the court (more time hanging on the phone) to see if you can agree a payment plan. Even a payment plan may be quite painful in that the fine is meant to be punishment - so they won't agree a pound a week for five years, or anything like that.

 

[island]

Just to add that the court will usually want the fine to be paid within a year.

 

[r4miii]

t

see post 244 which helps explain that

thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

The court will write to you. The letter will confirm that you pleaded guilty, and it will tell you how much you have to pay them. This will be based on what you have told them about your income (which may be no income at all) so it's important to answer everything truthfully.

Then you will have to pay them. If it's more than you can afford at once, you will need to get back in touch with the court (more time hanging on the phone) to see if you can agree a payment plan. Even a payment plan may be quite painful in that the fine is meant to be punishment - so they won't agree a pound a week for five years, or anything like that.

thank you - will they say anything with regards to the conviction and how it will show up on dbs etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Just to add that the court will usually want the fine to be paid within a year.

thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

The court will write to you. The letter will confirm that you pleaded guilty, and it will tell you how much you have to pay them. This will be based on what you have told them about your income (which may be no income at all) so it's important to answer everything truthfully.

Then you will have to pay them. If it's more than you can afford at once, you will need to get back in touch with the court (more time hanging on the phone) to see if you can agree a payment plan. Even a payment plan may be quite painful in that the fine is meant to be punishment - so they won't agree a pound a week for five years, or anything like that.

the amount thats on the sjp now, is that how much i will have to pay since i do not work or will they still add something

 

[AlterEgo]

the amount thats on the sjp now, is that how much i will have to pay since i do not work or will they still add something

The SJPN will inform you of the prosecution’s costs. The fine and surcharge are not included because you have not been sentenced yet.