Chiltern Railways refuse to serve Wembley Stadium when Euston - Birmingham is closed.

[miklcct]

I want to travel to Birmingham Moor Street on 22 June. The railway between Rugby and Birmingham International is closed that day. As a response, Chiltern Railways will enhance their Marylebone - Birmingham Moor Street services using long trains. However, at the same time, they have removed all the station calls at Wembley Stadium from their Oxford and Aylesbury trains despite having an event at Wembley.

I have contacted their customer service asking for journey options as their website is extremely unhelpful, just saying that there will be no service and they will be unable to serve the event. In particular, I have asked the journey options to travel to the country along the route, and the justification of removing station stops from the Aylesbury and Oxford services.

After a few round trips, the conclusion is that:
- They refuses to serve Wembley because they don't have enough capacity after taking the displaced Euston - Birmingham passengers.
- They expect people attending the Wembley event travel by tube via Amersham.

I then asked them to suggest the route via Amersham and replacement bus to Beaconsfield on the website, but they said they can't do that because they can't suggest an alternative route citing concern on the replacement bus capacity.

I am not satisfied about the response, and the removal of service provision from Wembley when there is expected high demand with one of the major rail routes already closed. It seems that they want to offload their responsibility of carrying passengers to TfL, creating further pressure on the tube system and making country-bound journeys hard. I expect that, as there is expected high demand, train companies should do their best to call all the existing trains (including London - Aylesbury / Oxford which are not affected by the closure, and possibly Birmingham as well) at Wembley, giving as many journey opportunities for everyone to travel, even if they can't provide additional train services.

I would like to take this matter further such that Chiltern Railways can't withdraw services as they wish. Where should I take this matter further? Should I contact London Travelwatch? Can my MP (Brent) help as well?

 

[Hadders]

I agree with Chiltern.

If you want to travel from London to Birmingham Moor Street then just go to Marylebone. The trains will be very busy with Birmingham passengers.
It would be very unwise of Chiltern to stop trains at Wembley Stadium, the trains will already be very busy with Birmingham to London traffic, the last thing that is needed is Wembley Stadium traffic as well. There are other options for getting to Wembley Stadium via the Met/Jubilee/Bakerloo Lines.

Trains to Oxford and Aylesbury would ordinarily be strengthened when there's an event on at Wembley Stadium. This cannot happen as the trains to Birmingham are being strengthened instead.

 

[yorkie]

I want to travel to Birmingham Moor Street on 22 June. The railway between Rugby and Birmingham International is closed that day. As a response, Chiltern Railways will enhance their Marylebone - Birmingham Moor Street services using long trains. However, at the same time, they have removed all the station calls at Wembley Stadium from their Oxford and Aylesbury trains despite having an event at Wembley.

I have contacted their customer service asking for journey options as their website is extremely unhelpful, just saying that there will be no service and they will be unable to serve the event. In particular, I have asked the journey options to travel to the country along the route, and the justification of removing station stops from the Aylesbury and Oxford services.

After a few round trips, the conclusion is that:
- They refuses to serve Wembley because they don't have enough capacity after taking the displaced Euston - Birmingham passengers.
- They expect people attending the Wembley event travel by tube via Amersham.

I then asked them to suggest the route via Amersham and replacement bus to Beaconsfield on the website, but they said they can't do that because they can't suggest an alternative route citing concern on the replacement bus capacity.

I am not satisfied about the response, and the removal of service provision from Wembley when there is expected high demand with one of the major rail routes already closed. It seems that they want to offload their responsibility of carrying passengers to TfL, creating further pressure on the tube system and making country-bound journeys hard. I expect that, as there is expected high demand, train companies should do their best to call all the existing trains (including London - Aylesbury / Oxford which are not affected by the closure, and possibly Birmingham as well) at Wembley, giving as many journey opportunities for everyone to travel, even if they can't provide additional train services.

What do you propose?

Are you asking them to simply call regardless, and let carnage unfold?

I would like to take this matter further such that Chiltern Railways can't withdraw services as they wish. Where should I take this matter further? Should I contact London Travelwatch? Can my MP (Brent) help as well?

By all means do all of this, but it would achieve nothing, other than bringing your name to their attention and potentially undermining any genuine complaints you have in future.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Who's on at Wembley Stadium on Saturday 22nd June 2024? Completely sold out Taylor Swift evening gig?

 

[AlterEgo]

Who's on at Wembley Stadium on Saturday 22nd June 2024? Completely sold out Taylor Swift evening gig?

Correct. And the OP wants Chiltern to call. It would be total carnage.

 

[skyhigh]

Can my MP (Brent) help as well?

Seeing as you technically now don't have an MP until July, no.

 

[miklcct]

There are other options for getting to Wembley Stadium via the Met/Jubilee/Bakerloo Lines.

They don't really help Wembley - Country traffic, although some convoluted routes may still be possible such as Amersham - Beaconsfield replacement bus or taking Avanti from Watford Junction and using another route to Birmingham to avoid the replacement bus.

Honestly, are the railways really working to put off passengers from the country attending big events at Wembley by trains, when trains are the best possible mass transport for an event of such scale?

Trains to Oxford and Aylesbury would ordinarily be strengthened when there's an event on at Wembley Stadium. This cannot happen as the trains to Birmingham are being strengthened instead.

Why can't an additional call be placed on Birmingham service instead? Chiltern Railways are even discouraging Wembley passengers from circulating via Marylebone after the event due to the limited number of services remaining, if they instead call the trains at Wembley, it should save them time such that there are more services available to cater for demand. What's wrong with my reasoning?

 

[miklcct]

Last month when engineering works closed the Euston - Birmingham route, Chiltern Railways didn't withdraw the service but instead enhanced it for a football match at Wembley.

Travel advice for Solihull Moors fans ahead of double trip to Wembley Stadium on 5 and 11 May | Chiltern Railways News

News from Chiltern Railways

press.chilternrailways.co.uk

I'll ask the Customer Service about the different treatment.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I commuted with chiltern for 9 years.
They'd often neglect their year round customers by missing out stops or advise against travelling when engineering work on wcml

 

[island]

I think this is a correct decision by Chiltern as otherwise crowding and crowd control would be unmanageable.

 

[Snow1964]

I think this is a correct decision by Chiltern as otherwise crowding and crowd control would be unmanageable.

Yes Chiltern are put in difficult place by having to absorb extra passengers because other operators who normally serve the closed section of line are not providing diverted trains.

The lack of a joined up railway, passing on a problem and not helping out. Sadly far too common these days.

 

[The exile]

Equally - it should be part of the planning / permission for any large scale event that the organisers have to ensure that arrangements are in place for crowd dispersal (ie transport away from the event). Quite happy to take in the ticket prices / TV money (football etc) and leave it to others to sort out the mess.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Honestly, are the railways really working to put off passengers from the country attending big events at Wembley by trains, when trains are the best possible mass transport for an event of such scale?

So what happens when 5000 people turn up at the station at eleven o’clock at night to catch a train that when crush loaded can perhaps take 500 - assuming it’s empty when it arrives?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Realistically, Chiltern can't serve both Wembly crowds and displaced Birmingham passengers.

Last month when engineering works closed the Euston - Birmingham route, Chiltern Railways didn't withdraw the service but instead enhanced it for a football match at Wembley.

Travel advice for Solihull Moors fans ahead of double trip to Wembley Stadium on 5 and 11 May | Chiltern Railways News

News from Chiltern Railways

press.chilternrailways.co.uk

I'll ask the Customer Service about the different treatment.

The difference is that at a football game only half the crowd is heading "away" I'm no follower of football, but I can't believe Solihull has the same number of supporters as Taylor Swift. Also, they've possible also learnt from that. Trying to get a concert full of people onto already full trains is a recipe for disaster. There would be loads of complaints if trains were turning up full with displaced Birmingham passengers that Chiltern shouldn't have run them if they knew they were going to be full.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So what happens when 5000 people turn up at the station at eleven o’clock at night to catch a train that when crush loaded can perhaps take 500 - assuming it’s empty when it arrives?

To pick up on this point, Britain’s national culture is very (unusually?) sensitive to avoiding the risk of crushes. I suspect that this dates from the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 - and there are previous historic incidents as well: Ibrox in 1971 and Bethnal Green tube station in 1943 come to mind. I of course accept that similar incidents have happened outside the UK more recently, but it seems to me that Britain remains very keen on it not happening again.

I can understand it if Chiltern are risk-averse to the point of not being prepared to take the chance that Wembley Stadium station will be overwhelmed and cannot operate safely.

 

[AlterEgo]

Realistically, Chiltern can't serve both Wembly crowds and displaced Birmingham passengers.


The difference is that at a football game only half the crowd is heading "away" I'm no follower of football, but I can't believe Solihull has the same number of supporters as Taylor Swift. Also, they've possible also learnt from that. Trying to get a concert full of people onto already full trains is a recipe for disaster. There would be loads of complaints if trains were turning up full with displaced Birmingham passengers that Chiltern shouldn't have run them if they knew they were going to be full.

Solihull Moors took about 10-12,000 fans to each of those games.

Taylor Swift has sold nearly 100,000 tickets for each date at Wembley. This would be a complete disaster for Chiltern who wouldn’t be able to cope.

 

[dosxuk]

Equally - it should be part of the planning / permission for any large scale event that the organisers have to ensure that arrangements are in place for crowd dispersal (ie transport away from the event). Quite happy to take in the ticket prices / TV money (football etc) and leave it to others to sort out the mess.

This works both ways though - events like Taylor Swift will have been booked with the venue for a very long time - it could well be that no closures were announced when the event was booked. Should the railway be prevented from doing engineering work up near Rugby because of an event in London?

 

[The exile]

This works both ways though - events like Taylor Swift will have been booked with the venue for a very long time - it could well be that no closures were announced when the event was booked. Should the railway be prevented from doing engineering work up near Rugby because of an event in London?

Would be interesting to know which is earlier - NR’s possession planning (isn’t that about 2 years out for major blockades?) or concert venue booking?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last month when engineering works closed the Euston - Birmingham route, Chiltern Railways didn't withdraw the service but instead enhanced it for a football match at Wembley.

And in doing so (if it's the weekend I think it was) left Aylesbury via Amersham with no service at all, and Vale Parkway with a bus only, which in my view wasn't acceptable.

Just travel to London on Chiltern then take the Metropolitan Line to Wembley from Baker St. It's not too hard, it might actually be a slightly better experience due to the higher capacity available.

 

[miklcct]

Solihull Moors took about 10-12,000 fans to each of those games.

Taylor Swift has sold nearly 100,000 tickets for each date at Wembley. This would be a complete disaster for Chiltern who wouldn’t be able to cope.

So here comes my main question:

In the Customer Service response, they have told me that they expect 10% of the attendance will travel by train, and 90000 tickets are sold this time, i.e. expecting 9000 extra passengers.

It isn't possible to provide extra capacity for 9000 passengers. But isn't it better to do the best they can, i.e. provide 1000 extra capacity to allow some people to travel (maybe to put additional stops onto the Oxford train, where onward journey opportunities are available at Banbury), instead of withdrawing the service totally so 0 can travel?

 

[DarloRich]

Last month when engineering works closed the Euston - Birmingham route, Chiltern Railways didn't withdraw the service but instead enhanced it for a football match at Wembley.

let me get this straight: you are trying to compare the national league play off final between Bromley & Solihul with, checks notes, a sold out concert from one of the most popular recording artists in the world at this present time?

Is this a serious point?

 

[miklcct]

let me get this straight: you are trying to compare the national league play off final between Bromley & Solihul with, checks notes, a sold out concert from one of the most popular recording artists in the world at this present time?

Is this a serious point?

Yes, because they are both events at Wembley.

In my view, Chiltern should try to carry as much as they can on the trains, and arrange rail replacement buses to make up for the missing capacity in the country direction, making services at Wembley pick up only in the country direction and drop off only in the London direction to stop London - Wembley passengers using them.

Also, has the Metropolitan line / Jubilee line ever been closed due to engineering works when there is such a large event happening at Wembley? If so, what did TfL do at that time to handle the crowds?

 

[yorkie]

let me get this straight: you are trying to compare the national league play off final between Bromley & Solihul with, checks notes, a sold out concert from one of the most popular recording artists in the world at this present time?

Is this a serious point?

Yes, because they are both events at Wembley.

Are you suggesting the travel demands will be the same, or very similar? Did you read the post above regarding the crowd size?

In my view, Chiltern should try to carry as much as they can on the trains, and arrange rail replacement buses to make up for the missing capacity in the country direction, making services at Wembley pick up only in the country direction and drop off only in the London direction to stop London - Wembley passengers using them.

How many buses do you think Chiltern should be ordering? Where would those buses park and pick up passengers?

Also, has the Metropolitan line / Jubilee line ever been closed due to engineering works when there is such a large event happening at Wembley? If so, what did TfL do at that time to handle the crowds?

I don't think it would be possible to have a 100,000 crowd when there is a WCML closure and a Met/Jubilee line closure. Do you think it would?

So here comes my main question:

In the Customer Service response, they have told me that they expect 10% of the attendance will travel by train, and 90000 tickets are sold this time, i.e. expecting 9000 extra passengers.

It isn't possible to provide extra capacity for 9000 passengers. But isn't it better to do the best they can, i.e. provide 1000 extra capacity to allow some people to travel (maybe to put additional stops onto the Oxford train, where onward journey opportunities are available at Banbury), instead of withdrawing the service totally so 0 can travel?

What do you do when 8,000 people can't be catered for?

As for the "0 can travel" comment, do you think Chiltern trains will be carrying fresh air on this day, given the WCML closure? Or is your proposal to leave a few thousand London to Birmingham passengers behind instead?

 

[The exile]

Yes, because they are both events at Wembley.

In my view, Chiltern should try to carry as much as they can on the trains, and arrange rail replacement buses to make up for the missing capacity in the country

Just to get this in perspective, the football match you’re comparing this to had an attendance just over 23000 - between a fifth and a quarter of a sell-out crowd - and that on a day when Marylebone wasn’t being Euston as well. As for laying on buses, London is hardly a public transport desert - plenty of alternatives exist for getting to Marylebone to pick up the train there (or vice versa). Probably quicker than a bus to High Wycombe or wherever as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

So here comes my main question:

In the Customer Service response, they have told me that they expect 10% of the attendance will travel by train, and 90000 tickets are sold this time, i.e. expecting 9000 extra passengers.

It isn't possible to provide extra capacity for 9000 passengers. But isn't it better to do the best they can, i.e. provide 1000 extra capacity to allow some people to travel (maybe to put additional stops onto the Oxford train, where onward journey opportunities are available at Banbury), instead of withdrawing the service totally so 0 can travel?

How would you decide who out of that 9,000 people can use the train? A 9,000 strong queue? At a two platform station?

Far simpler to just cut the stop, and much safer too. The arrangements TfL have should be sufficient to accommodate the demand.

 

[Mike395]

This really is a non-issue. TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting large crowds out of Wembley with the vast majority of those going via Wembley Park even when Central is operating, which has the capacity to shift people at a rate of knots into London (including Baker St from which it's trivially easy to get to Marylebone).

 

[Belperpete]

The logistics of getting the passengers on at Wembley Stadium would be a nightmare. Chiltern would require a substantial number of staff to control the crowds, particularly as the platforms aren't that wide, in addition to the extra staff that they no doubt will have to provide at Marylebone to cope with the Euston crowds. Then there would be significant delay to each train as hordes of people attempt to find space on already packed trains.

As Mike says, makes far more sense to head to Baker Street on the Met, and join the train at Marylebone, than spend hours queuing at Wembley Stadium trying to join already full trains.

 

[dosxuk]

Would be interesting to know which is earlier - NR’s possession planning (isn’t that about 2 years out for major blockades?) or concert venue booking?

Shows of the size of this tour will normally be planned at least 2 years in advance of the dates, especially at venues like Wembley where the available dates can be very limited. On a world tour like this one, it wouldn't surprise me if the other dates in the UK were booked around Wembley's availability - which then also needs to worked into the plans for the other countries on the tour. The logistics of planning a major concert series are probably at least as complicated as those NR has for major projects.

 

[miklcct]

The logistics of getting the passengers on at Wembley Stadium would be a nightmare. Chiltern would require a substantial number of staff to control the crowds, particularly as the platforms aren't that wide, in addition to the extra staff that they no doubt will have to provide at Marylebone to cope with the Euston crowds. Then there would be significant delay to each train as hordes of people attempt to find space on already packed trains.

Do you mean that Wembley Stadium station is not fit for the purpose? Wasn't it built to specifically cater for event demands?

This really is a non-issue. TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting large crowds out of Wembley with the vast majority of those going via Wembley Park even when Central is operating, which has the capacity to shift people at a rate of knots into London (including Baker St from which it's trivially easy to get to Marylebone).

Does TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting crowds in the country direction?

Are you suggesting the travel demands will be the same, or very similar? Did you read the post above regarding the crowd size?

The demands will of course be different, but the nature is still the same, just the numbers are different.

How many buses do you think Chiltern should be ordering? Where would those buses park and pick up passengers?

As much as they need to carry the expected crowd, using the official coach parking in collaboration with the stadium. Chiltern has also dropped station calls at smaller stations where long trains can't call, but they don't leave passengers deserted because there are replacement buses.

I don't think it would be possible to have a 100,000 crowd when there is a WCML closure and a Met/Jubilee line closure. Do you think it would?

Why don't you think it won't be possible? Are there measures which prevent a 100000-person event from happening at Wembley when the Jubilee / Metropolitan lines are closed?

What do you do when 8,000 people can't be catered for?

As for the "0 can travel" comment, do you think Chiltern trains will be carrying fresh air on this day, given the WCML closure? Or is your proposal to leave a few thousand London to Birmingham passengers behind instead?

I mean that 0 from Wembley can travel towards the country direction. Of course the Chiltern trains will be full of London - Birmingham passengers, but how about Wembley - Birmingham (or anywhere on the Chiltern lines) passengers? Under normal circumstances, some can travel Wembley to Oxford, but on that day, 0 will be able to travel from Wembley to Oxford.

There is also an alternative route from London to Birmingham, which is via Paddington and Reading, taking similar time as Chiltern's direct trains. Do you think this route will also be overcrowded that it can't take more displaced Euston - Birmingham passengers? Instead, Chiltern is offering no viable alternative route from Wembley Stadium to the country here.

 

[Retorus]

This feels like an issue for someone with too much time on their hands. Chiltern have made the right decision.

 

[Mike395]

Does TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting crowds in the country direction?

Yes. Via London. (or you could also go via Harrow for Aylesbury services)