Martin1988
Member
Thanks for this interesting information Paul and Grand Wazoo.
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D&G Buses
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martinsh
Established Member
Sampled the first day of Sunday service on route 12 today - was surprised to find I wasn't the only passenger ! About half a dozen at all times on the journey but people getting on and off. Only one person left by the time I got off though - but that is normal for a weekday anyway.
My experience was:
12 - between Crewe and Cliffe Road in the morning had 5 on (but 2 off at bus station) and just 4 between Laindon Avenue and Crewe (but again 4 boarding). Below break even for now but definitely has potential and hopefully Makers Market next week improves patronage.
38 - one northbound had 13 total and one southbound also had 13 passengers. Busiest section was by far Sandbach - Crewe and vice versa with no one get on/off between Macclesfield Bus Station (5 on) all the way to Crewe Bus Station. Work to go on this one.
130 - took the 1455 from Macclesfield to Wilmslow. Driver wasn't aware D&G day/week/month tickets were valid but did accept it. Means no logging of this. 3 on at Macclesfield Bus Station and 2 at Macclesfield Hospital with no more joining afterwards. I can't see this one lasting if this is the start
The Crewe buses have best potential for commercial viability it seems - but once 84X is cut from next month, will this reduce passengers as less connections?
daodao
Established Member
There is currently a diversion on route 130 inbound to Macclesfield due to gas works on Victoria Road outside the hospital, which may affect patronage at present. Outbound buses bypass this section of Victoria Road by running through the hospital grounds. I anticipate more passengers on the last Sunday of the month when the Treacle Market is held.
33117
Member
There is a rumour floating about is that the #48 Northwich - Frodsham is earmarked for the chop. Word is it just ain't carrying hardly anybody.
Only trips that seem reasonably busy are the school runs. What we could really do with is evening buses again.
Quite a few folk from Macclesfield used to go drinking in Bollington & vice versa, also evening turns to Handforth might be worth a shout.
Only trips that seem reasonably busy are the school runs. What we could really do with is evening buses again.
Quite a few folk from Macclesfield used to go drinking in Bollington & vice versa, also evening turns to Handforth might be worth a shout.
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markymark2000
On Moderation
It's a tender. Didn't D&G win it on a gross cost contract too meaning they get paid the same no matter how many people they carry? It's hardly surprising though that it's hardly carrying anyone; Cheshire West Council have set up the new 'iTravel' DRT so that it duplicates over the bus services. Why wait for the 48 when you can have a door to door taxpayer funded taxi?
Lack of integration too sees Cheshire West paying out thousands to Selwyns to run a school bus linking Kingsley - Frodsham - Helsby when this could be made into a Selwyns 49A and therefore enhance the overall service levels on the 49 making it more attractive.
Not sure if you were meant to link the 48 possible withdrawal with wanting evening buses in Macclesfield, if so, removing the 48 wouldn't give evening buses in Macclesfield as they are different councils for a start.
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Isn't the 48 funded by Cheshire West so they would have to decide whether to fund it anymore?
33117
Member
My bad I hadn't meant to link the #48 withdrawal to macc evening services. Just that we could do with them back again.
A driver mate of mine tells me that apparently everybody got BSIP+ funding so maybe cheshire east could do something with that.
Cheshire East have been using its BSIP funding already
12 (Leighton - Crewe - Rope) - Sundays - £30,000 (D&G)
12 (Leighton - Crewe - Rope) - Saturday Evenings - £10,000 (D&G)
38 (Crewe - Macclesfield) - Sundays - £60,000 (D&G)
130 (Macclesfield - Handforth Dean) - Sundays - £60,000 (High Peak)
The initial priority was to connect major towns with hospitals, with the 38 being seen as strategic importance for the Borough as connects the Council's two largest towns
The remaining funding is being used for Introducing a multi-operator ticket in Macclesfield, trial a young person's concessionary fare pass for 16-19 year olds, promote the 'System One' ticketing for north Cheshire East residents, and create hub stops along the 38 route.
A further review is occurring in November 2024 and March 2025 regarding Cheshire East's network - as its the most heavily subsidised per person network in the North West. Parts of that will involve a new Leighton-Nantwich service, cutting Bunbury buses and enhancing Poynton-Stockport buses. Other changes likely.
At present, the only routes in the entirety of Cheshire East which are not subsidised are:
D&G 3 Macclesfield-Weston (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly)
First 3 Crewe-Hanley (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly, Mon-Sat evenings hourly, Sun hourly)
Warrington X5 Warrington-Manchester Airport (Mon-Sun hourly)
D&G 8 Wistaston Green-Sydney (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly) - Mon-Sat evening & Sunday daytime are S106 funded
D&G 10 Macclesfield-Bollington (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly)
D&G 12 Leighton - Shavington (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly) - Mon-Sat evening & Sunday daytime are subsidised
High Peak 14 Macclesfield-Moss Rose (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly)
D&G 31 Crewe-Northwich (Mon-Sat daytime hourly)
D&G 37 Crewe-Northwich (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - Mon-Sat evening are subsidised
D&G 38 Crewe-Macclesfield (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - Mon-Sat evening & Sunday daytime are subsidised
Stagecoach 42C Manchester-Handforth Dean (Mon-Sat daytime hourly)
High Peak 58 Macclesfield-Buxton (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - Sunday daytime are subsidised
Stagecoach 84 Crewe-Nantwich (Mon-Sat daytime hourly)
Stagecoach 84 Crewe-Chester (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - Mon-Sat evening & Sunday daytime are subsidised by Cheshire East and West Councils
D&G 84X Crewe-Nantwich (Mon-Sat daytime half-hourly)
D&G 85 Nantwich-Newcastle (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - One evening northbound Newcastle-Crewe subsidised by Staffordshire County council
D&G 94 Congleton-Newcastle (Mon-Fri daytime hourly) - Saturday daytime are subsidised by Staffordshire County Council
High Peak 199 Manchester Airport-Buxton (Mon-Sat daytime hourly) - 1 of 2 an hour Mon-Sat daytime, Mon-Sat evening and Sunday all day are subsidised
Belle Vue 393 Stockport-Macclesfield (1 journey each way Mon-Sat)
All other routes are fully subsidised (14A, 19, 19A, 39, 42, 60^, 60A^, 70, 71, 72, 73, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 109*, 130, 188, 191, 312, 316, 317, 318, 319, 391 and 392)
* by Staffordshire County Council
^ by Derbyshire County Council
Bus 42C are provided with the financial support of TfGM between Handforth Dean and Cheadle https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...76cbb65929a758fd58e039/42B_42C_22-SC-0452.pdf
Bus X5 is provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester and Warrington Borough Council
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...5c25de52626b3b8c208ed2871e5/X5_23-SC-0348.pdf
Bus 199 is also provided with the financial support of Transport for Greater Manchester between Stockport and Manchester Airport
Martin1988
Member
Just returned from a few days in the Crewe area where I rode plenty of D&G Buses.
This was my first visit to the area since Arriva pulled out last year. I couldn't help but notice how much busier the 37 and 38 seemed to be compared to previous trips but this seemed to be a combination of fewer services and the fact D&G use smaller vehicles than Arriva.
Speaking of the 38 in particular I felt that higher capacity buses and/or an increased frequency is needed. Would the 38 warrant a 30 minute frequency or is 60 minutes generally enough?
And is there any reason as to why D&G won't source higher capacity vehicles for this route?
I also did the 1500 departure on Service 42 from Congleton to Crewe both days running and the bulk of passengers were school pupils from the Holmes Chapel area who filled up the bus. Again I couldn't help but wonder why D&G don't use a bigger bus on that journey.
Is that particular 42 journey commercial or contacted and if its the latter, do Cheshire East Council dictate the vehicle size?
This was my first visit to the area since Arriva pulled out last year. I couldn't help but notice how much busier the 37 and 38 seemed to be compared to previous trips but this seemed to be a combination of fewer services and the fact D&G use smaller vehicles than Arriva.
Speaking of the 38 in particular I felt that higher capacity buses and/or an increased frequency is needed. Would the 38 warrant a 30 minute frequency or is 60 minutes generally enough?
And is there any reason as to why D&G won't source higher capacity vehicles for this route?
I also did the 1500 departure on Service 42 from Congleton to Crewe both days running and the bulk of passengers were school pupils from the Holmes Chapel area who filled up the bus. Again I couldn't help but wonder why D&G don't use a bigger bus on that journey.
Is that particular 42 journey commercial or contacted and if its the latter, do Cheshire East Council dictate the vehicle size?
markymark2000
On Moderation
The 38 used to be half hourly. Arriva cut back to hourly and D&G then took on trips on the opposite half hour (making a combined half hourly service). When Arriva withdrew from the area, D&G just took on the Arriva trips and withdrew their own.
The 37 and 38 provide a combined half hourly service between Crewe and Sandbach and so boosting the 38 to half hourly would mean buses following each other between Sandbach and Crewe unless times were amended.
As for why wouldn't D&G get higher capacity vehicles, I am sure this was the point in them getting the E200MMCs (the larger YY73s, fleet numbers 574/575/576), these seat 40 pax and the 38 seems to have 2 of 3 diagrams using these. In my opinion, the E200 MMC feel a lot more cramped and crowded though versus the Pulsars (and I don't mean at full capacity either. Even 30 people on each, the 200s feel more crowded). Also if you happened to end up with a normal E200 you'd have had less seats and so that may have led to you feeling higher capacity was needed.
Route 42 is fully tendered by Cheshire East Council and I do believe they dictate the capacity.
Martin1988
Member
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I sort of guessed the 37 and 38 combined to form a half hourly frequency between Crewe and Sandbach. Is that the busiest section of these two routes?
I caught the 1400 departure from Macclesfield to Congleton on Thursday afternoon and the service was really busy with seats close to running out and a few passengers having to/opting to stand. One or two of the passengers remarked it was unusual for that journey to be that busy though.
If the 42 is contracted by Cheshire East Council and it is them who dictate the vehicle size why would D&G still get away with running a vehicle with insufficient capacity for the number of school passengers using it?
I caught the 1400 departure from Macclesfield to Congleton on Thursday afternoon and the service was really busy with seats close to running out and a few passengers having to/opting to stand. One or two of the passengers remarked it was unusual for that journey to be that busy though.
If the 42 is contracted by Cheshire East Council and it is them who dictate the vehicle size why would D&G still get away with running a vehicle with insufficient capacity for the number of school passengers using it?
The 1500 42 has been an Enviro 200 Tuesday - Friday & Optare MetroCity on Monday in the last week - I'm not sure what's bigger except the Enviro200MMC in the fleet.
I know that the 42 is shared between Crewe and Stoke Depot these days.
I know that the 42 is shared between Crewe and Stoke Depot these days.
WibbleWobble
Member
Historically the service north of Sandbach was half hourly (either all 37s or some with differing numbers), so in effect there was a half hourly service along the full route, just with a need to change buses on alternate journeys.
As far as I can remember, the 38 was always hourly under Arriva, with no Sandbach shorts.
As far as I can remember, the 38 was always hourly under Arriva, with no Sandbach shorts.
markymark2000
On Moderation
I was sure it ran half hourly under Arriva? I thought this is what sparked D&G to start the Mon-Fri. If I'm wrong, I apologise.
WibbleWobble
Member
I've only ever known it as hourly (but that's not to say there was a period of higher frequency) - I did try and look on Railwaymedia to confirm either way, but there's a massive gap in the available files.
Martin1988
Member
Thanks for explaining. Do you have any idea whether the 1500 journey is a Crewe or a Stoke working?
Didn't there used to be an additional Crewe to Sandbach service via Haslington at one time?
I can only ever remember the 38 being hourly as run by Arriva or any of the predecessors.
There was a minibus service run as The Harrier that ran between Crewe and Sandbach via Haslington for many years which started early 90s (I think). I've got vague memories of Bakers running a similar service branded as the Harrier as well, and then D&G took that on when Bakers stopped running, although I'm not sure how long that lasted. Bakers also ran an X38 from Crewe to Biddulph via Sandbach and Congleton but that didnt last very long either. And going back into the 90s, PMT and Midland Red ran services between Crewe and Haslington.
Martin1988
Member
Thanks for this interesting information. I've heard about The Harrier service and vaguely remember reading something about Bakers and subsequently D&G operating that route. Not at all familiar with the X38 though. Wouldn't PMT's journeys have been those on what are now the 3?
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No, PMT ran a K34 from Crewe to Haslington, every half hour, which I think started around the same time as The Harrier ran. Midland Red North ran it at some point in the 90s as well (I think), but it was a seperate service to PMT's 320 or 20 to Hanley. The X38 was only short lived as it was from when Bakers expanded into Crewe, which then attracted the attention of D&G who took over their bus operations.
Digging around on the web archive, I found this article about timetable for Bakers Crewe to Sandbach services in 2011:-
And there is this timetable for the X38 from 2011:-
Martin1988
Member
Many thanks for this interesting information and for providing these links. Have also found archive timetables for D&G services before and there was definitley a wider range of services 10-15 years ago including, at one point the 38 having a Sunday evening service.
How times have changed.
How times have changed.
It's operated by Stoke Depot. There's been some interesting timings on the Stoke operated buses especially on the 1615 Congleton - Crewe within the last week i will say...
Martin1988
Member
Thanks for confirming this. What has been up on the Stoke operated buses this week?
ServerHoster
Member
Unfortunately I have not had a good experience on D&G Buses today, as a plane spotter I wanted to visit the “South side” viewing area at Manchester Airport, the only way to get there without a car is by using bus 88 which is a D&G Route, to go to Wilmslow Road Airport Inn bus stop. I had a Stockport PlusBus ticket and, before travelling, I double checked to see if this would be allowed. The assistant depot manager of Crewe depot responded assuring me it would be fine.
so, today, I turned up to the bus stop on Sunbank Lane and attempted to board the bus, showing my Stockport PlusBus ticket, where the bus driver flat out refused me to travel.
I informed him that the Crewe assistant depot manager sent me this email reply assuring me it was valid, yet he was uninterested in seeing it, claiming “I do not work at the Crewe depot so he will have no clue what he is saying.”
In addition, he went as far to say “You can only use this Plus Bus ticket if you are getting on and off at a train station.” Which is nonsense. I told him it covers the whole of Greater Manchester and he said, “I am not going to Greater Manchester.”
At this point, I refused to pay any additional fare as my ticket was already valid. I took a picture of the driver and told him that I would make a complaint, he was basically laughing which shows he thought it was an empty threat. I left the bus, he then drove off.
I will be making my complaint soon, I will post the response on here
pic 1: email from the assistant depot manager assuring me the ticket is valid “The boundaries have not changed so this journey should still be valid. I will ask the website team to add this information to the new website. Kind regards.”
pic 2: a picture of the bus arriving at the bus stop
so, today, I turned up to the bus stop on Sunbank Lane and attempted to board the bus, showing my Stockport PlusBus ticket, where the bus driver flat out refused me to travel.
I informed him that the Crewe assistant depot manager sent me this email reply assuring me it was valid, yet he was uninterested in seeing it, claiming “I do not work at the Crewe depot so he will have no clue what he is saying.”
In addition, he went as far to say “You can only use this Plus Bus ticket if you are getting on and off at a train station.” Which is nonsense. I told him it covers the whole of Greater Manchester and he said, “I am not going to Greater Manchester.”
At this point, I refused to pay any additional fare as my ticket was already valid. I took a picture of the driver and told him that I would make a complaint, he was basically laughing which shows he thought it was an empty threat. I left the bus, he then drove off.
I will be making my complaint soon, I will post the response on here
pic 1: email from the assistant depot manager assuring me the ticket is valid “The boundaries have not changed so this journey should still be valid. I will ask the website team to add this information to the new website. Kind regards.”
pic 2: a picture of the bus arriving at the bus stop
Attachments
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WibbleWobble
Member
Despite the driver's clearly appalling behaviour, he was right in that the ticket would have not been valid for the journey. The Airport Inn stop is over the boundary in Cheshire, so is outside of the PlusBus zone for any Greater Manchester schemes.
ServerHoster
Member
In my opinion, he was not in the right; as shown by the old D&G bus website, and as confirmed by the assistant depot manager that the boundaries have not changed, this screenshot was included in my initial email to them, and the two bus stop names were specifically included.
In addition, this section of the Consumer Rights Act could apply here, in my opinion:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/69
Attachments
There are a couple of problems here.
Big one is that according to the Plusbus website, that bus stop is outside the zone. There's an interactive map on the page that shows the bus stops (as an option) and when you look, Airport Hotel bus stop is outside. Probably because it's in Cheshire and (as best I can tell) the Plusbus zone follows the Greater Manchester county boundary. Ultimately this is a scheme that isn't run by D&G and the cannonical source of which stop is in or outside the zone, has to be the Plusbus website.
Second one is that the current D&G website says nothing at all about Plusbus. In fact, D&G isn't even listed as an operator on the PlusBus website. True, the website may be incorrect (looking at the Stockport PlusBus page, it lists acceptance on Stagecoach Cumbria, and there's no Stagecoach Cumbria services serving Stockport!) but again, there's nothing in print that says D&G even accept PlusBus tickets in the Greater Manchester zone.
Now, we can see the old D&G website does indeed say "Service 88 - valid between Altrincham Interchange and Wilmslow Road, Airport Inn". D&G for whatever reason had a stated acceptance that was just outside the boundary. Perhaps they did this for pragmatic reasons because the Airport Inn's quite a noticeable landmark where as the first bus stop in the Greater Manchester boundary is basically near no local landmarks. But that's an old website that is no longer live. The information on it has to be assumed to be out of date and superceeded - there is nothing to say otherwise.
So what we're left with is that two different people in D&G have told you different things. The driver was correct - the bus stop is outside the zone. PlusBus's maps confirm this. And the depot gave you information that matched what D&G used to say on their website, but now don't.
I'd suggest complaining to D&G - see what they say. But I don't think you'll get anywhere trying to quote consumer law leglistlation because on that front, I can't imagine you'd get very far at all.
Incidentally one thing I'll happily say the driver was wrong on - if he said he wasn't going to Greater Manchester than he was definitely wrong because the 88 goes to Altrincham.
My suggestion if this ever happens again is simple - pay the £2, keep the ticket as it will have all the details, take it up with customer services after. Don't spoil your day over such things. It ain't worth it.
WibbleWobble
Member
And wouldn't the "consumer contract" be with the scheme organisers, not the operator, given it is their product that has been purchased? In which case you could raise with PlusBus that the boundary map isn't clear enough and a list of boundary stops needs to be supplied.
Djb1
Member
In defence of the driver (who probably could have dealt with this a lot better by the sounds of it). Sunbank lane is the penultimate stop in Greater Manchester in the direction they were heading at the time, they are heading away from Altrincham. I’d question (a little more constructively perhaps) any passenger boarding there with a plusbus given they can only go another couple of hundred metres on it.