Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
I think a fixed link of some kind between Gobowen and Oswetry is desirable, the primary problem is that even if you eat the capital cost, a rail link is going to cost an enormous amount to run.
So how about a cable hauled shuttle system (like a 'Cableliner', other brands are available).
It would need a single staff member and would have operating costs far below that of a conventional rail link, could operate at a high enough intensity that intensity would not be an issue, and the very light structure might help with regards the bridge over the A5.
Still extremely expensive in the short term but at least it probably haemmorhages less money in the long term than having a DMU run back and forth all day.
I think a fixed link of some kind between Gobowen and Oswetry is desirable, the primary problem is that even if you eat the capital cost, a rail link is going to cost an enormous amount to run.
So how about a cable hauled shuttle system (like a 'Cableliner', other brands are available).
It would need a single staff member and would have operating costs far below that of a conventional rail link, could operate at a high enough intensity that intensity would not be an issue, and the very light structure might help with regards the bridge over the A5.
Still extremely expensive in the short term but at least it probably haemmorhages less money in the long term than having a DMU run back and forth all day.
I don't see a gadgetbahn system as serving the people of Oswestry any better than any conventional rail shuttle to Gobowen. There's been a lot of talk about costs, but does anybody have a link to a document with demand projections?
The "Volunteer group" is The Oswestry Station Building Trust - a charity. And Oswestry Station is about to get a facelift using public money. You have to dig deep to get to the truth.
I don't see a gadgetbahn system as serving the people of Oswestry any better than any conventional rail shuttle to Gobowen. There's been a lot of talk about costs, but does anybody have a link to a document with demand projections?
I think a fixed link of some kind between Gobowen and Oswetry is desirable, the primary problem is that even if you eat the capital cost, a rail link is going to cost an enormous amount to run.
So how about a cable hauled shuttle system (like a 'Cableliner', other brands are available).
It would need a single staff member and would have operating costs far below that of a conventional rail link, could operate at a high enough intensity that intensity would not be an issue, and the very light structure might help with regards the bridge over the A5.
Still extremely expensive in the short term but at least it probably haemmorhages less money in the long term than having a DMU run back and forth all day.
Part of theor stated aim is to take haulage off the roads, so that means access to and from Blodwel quarry, 8 miles down the line and crossing the A5 and A483. I'm guessing this rules out a "light railway".
As a resident, would you be able to give a steer on what you feel the 3 highest-volume flows to/from Oswestry are, and whether they're for work or leisure?
Part of theor stated aim is to take haulage off the roads, so that means access to and from Blodwel quarry, 8 miles down the line and crossing the A5 and A483. I'm guessing this rules out a "light railway".
Where is the product going, and will it be in sufficient volume to make a train viable, before you consider the extra infrastructure costs enabling freight would trigger? Although the crossing of the A483 for freight may be more palatable as it'd be one train each way once or twice a week and several hours apart.
The bare minimum infrastructure at Gobowen would also force all departing freight from the Quarry to run via Chester, which has many parties looking for slots through the station. Providing additional infrastructure at Gobowen to allow southbound departures will add cost and also require additional staff to manage the shunt and/or runround moves, increasing Operating costs long-term.
There's not much storage space for freight in Gobowen, especially if the operator intends to run a passenger service twice per hour, so I'm having to guess that freight from the quarry would be done during the night and involve negotiations with Network Rail.
There are added complications regarding freight: The "Gasworks Bridge" in Oswestry under which freight would pass was supported by scaffolding by the Highways Agency for many years, exclusively for "over traffic". When the TWAO was granted, the props were removed to allow for trains to pass under on their way from Oswestry Station south to Weston Brewery.
Would that bridge need extra support for frieght trains going under it?
Also in Oswestry, some years ago on the site of a former oil depot and bordering the line a series of stilted properties were built. A former concillor once confided in me that he doubted that these properties would be able to take the strain of heavy trains passing close by.
There's not much storage space for freight in Gobowen, especially if the operator intends to run a passenger service twice per hour, so I'm having to guess that freight from the quarry would be done during the night and involve negotiations with Network Rail.
There are added complications regarding freight: The "Gasworks Bridge" in Oswestry under which freight would pass was supported by scaffolding by the Highways Agency for many years, exclusively for "over traffic". When the TWAO was granted, the props were removed to allow for trains to pass under on their way from Oswestry Station south to Weston Brewery.
Would that bridge need extra support for frieght trains going under it?
Also in Oswestry, some years ago on the site of a former oil depot and bordering the line a series of stilted properties were built. A former concillor once confided in me that he doubted that these properties would be able to take the strain of heavy trains passing close by.
Which all suggests that the 'stated aim' of freight trains is completely unviable. Just how much 'free' money will need to be thrown at this project to make it work?
As a resident, would you be able to give a steer on what you feel the 3 highest-volume flows to/from Oswestry are, and whether they're for work or leisure?
Where is the product going, and will it be in sufficient volume to make a train viable, before you consider the extra infrastructure costs enabling freight would trigger? Although the crossing of the A483 for freight may be more palatable as it'd be one train each way once or twice a week and several hours apart.
The bare minimum infrastructure at Gobowen would also force all departing freight from the Quarry to run via Chester, which has many parties looking for slots through the station. Providing additional infrastructure at Gobowen to allow southbound departures will add cost and also require additional staff to manage the shunt and/or runround moves, increasing Operating costs long-term.
Oswestry Bypass was built in the mid 1980's, but 2 level crossings were constructed to allow the final flow of goods trains to and from Blodwel Quarry. The A5 is an old Roman road that used to connect London up to Holyhead via Llangollen. There's loads of freight still uses the road, much of it coming/going from the Midlands then either heading South toward Welshpool, Newtown etc, going North toward Wrexham and Chester, or West into North Wales and Holyhead.
These roads do carry a lot of traffic and there have been long standing plans to widen the A5 from Shotaton in Shropshire to Ruabon in Flintshire, but it would involve a costly widening of the bridges high above Chirk Valley and the Vale of Llangollen...but this is where a cost for a tunnel for the Oswestry branch line could be added.
As two actual traffic coming into Oswestry itself, this mostly consisted or cars, vans and buses, not lorries. I would say busiest entry route is from Mile End along Shrewsbury Road, next I would split between entering via Gobowen and Whittington Roads. All three lead directly onto the bypass.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Which all suggests that the 'stated aim' of freight trains is completely unviable. Just how much 'free' money will need to be thrown at this project to make it work?
So much money has already been spent on this project and I don't think my council or my MP(s) have the knowledge and experience of you people on this site.
The "Volunteer group" is The Oswestry Station Building Trust - a charity. And Oswestry Station is about to get a facelift using public money. You have to dig deep to get to the truth.
Bit in bold: Not really - most volunteer or charity groups rely on grants, usually from public bodies and there will usually be conditions attached to the funding they receive. Anyone who's been involved with securing National Lottery or other grant funding can tell you that.
Oswestry Bypass was built in the mid 1980's, but 2 level crossings were constructed to allow the final flow of goods trains to and from Blodwel Quarry. The A5 is an old Roman road that used to connect London up to Holyhead via Llangollen. There's loads of freight still uses the road, much of it coming/going from the Midlands then either heading South toward Welshpool, Newtown etc, going North toward Wrexham and Chester, or West into North Wales and Holyhead.
These roads do carry a lot of traffic and there have been long standing plans to widen the A5 from Shotaton in Shropshire to Ruabon in Flintshire, but it would involve a costly widening of the bridges high above Chirk Valley and the Vale of Llangollen...but this is where a cost for a tunnel for the Oswestry branch line could be added.
Again, your claims are incorrect. Road freight coming from the Midlands aiming for Holyhead generally *isn't* using the A5 via Llangollen. Most lorries will either use the M6 / M56 / A55 or if they've used the M54 are more likely to take the A483 past Wrexham to the A55.
Going over the A5 is hard work, which is why most (not all) lorries avoid it.
Either way, the "current" A5 around Oswestry and Gobowen certainly doesn't use the historic route of the A5.
As a resident, would you be able to give a steer on what you feel the 3 highest-volume flows to/from Oswestry are, and whether they're for work or leisure?
As a non resident, I'll take a punt having looked at a map.
1 - Shrewsbury
2 - Wrexham
3 - Telford or Chester
Oswestry has schools of all levels including further education with North Shrops College.
The nearest A&E is Shrewsbury.
The main employment areas will be Shrewsbury / Telford, which have more manor employers than Wrexham and Chester.
A rail link to Gobowen won't particularly help journeys to Shrewsbury / Telford. Reopening Whittington station (2.5 miles from centre of Oswestry) would be a better (and cheaper) choice.
Oswestry Bypass was built in the mid 1980's, but 2 level crossings were constructed to allow the final flow of goods trains to and from Blodwel Quarry.
Or alternatively an aerial cable car system, as was suggested to link the two stations in Worcester some time back on this forum. It would solve the problem of the A5 level crossing if nothing else.
Bit in bold: Not really - most volunteer or charity groups rely on grants, usually from public bodies and there will usually be conditions attached to the funding they receive. Anyone who's been involved with securing National Lottery or other grant funding can tell you that.
Nevertheless, The Oswestry Station Building Trust came into existence just after Shropshire Country Council bought the building and had at least one councillor as a Trustee. They recently moved their registered office from Oswestry Station to Gobowen Station. Shropshire Council are about to anounce part funding for the exterior restoration of Oswestry Station because it's unsafe.
Gobowen Station exterior is also in need of extensive renovation. It was partly purchased using BiG Local National Lottery Funding. The idea behind the BiG Local is distributing funds to help relieve deprived areas in 3 local villages, namely St Martins, Weston Rhyn and Gobowen. The group overseeing the distribution of those funds are mostly made up of councillors.
Gobowen Station exterior is also in need of extensive renovation. It was partly purchased using BiG Local National Lottery Funding. The idea behind the BiG Local is distributing funds to help relieve deprived areas in 3 local villages, namely St Martins, Weston Rhyn and Gobowen. The group overseeing the distribution of those funds are mostly made up of councillors.
Would the Grade II listed status of Gobowen railway station have any implications for any proposed extensive renovation works that are required to be carried out?
Would the Grade II listed status of Gobowen railway status have any implications for any proposed extensive renovation works that are required to be carried out?
Yes, almost certainly. Listing *usually* covers certain elements of the building whivh then extends to the wider fabric of the building.
To give a practical example (borrowing from my own experience) a traditional church building may warrant listing in its own right, but the font and a monument within it, may warrant a Grade 1 listing where an almost identical building without those items would be Grade 2 listed.
Listing will affect the materials being used in any works, will affect any proposed interior changes and even affect any "improvements" which may be sought e.g. re-wiring, double glazing etc, even though these may be beneficial from an energy efficirncy perspective for example.
Would the Grade II listed status of Gobowen railway status have any implications for any proposed extensive renovation works that are required to be carried out?
Generally work has to respect the building's appearance and preserve particular features described in the listing which might plausibly add cost and difficulty compared to equivalent work at an unlisted site. I don't know the specifics here, or how extensive the intended renovation is.
Would the Grade II listed status of Gobowen railway station have any implications for any proposed extensive renovation works that are required to be carried out?
A Community Ownership Fund grant has been given to Oswestry Station Building Trust that looks after the buildings at the station on the Shrewsbury to Chester mainline
The government is providing £150 million over 4 years to support community groups in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to take ownership of assets and amenities at risk of being lost.
Voluntary and community groups can bid for funding to acquire important assets and run them for the benefit of the local community.
A Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) is one of the earliest stages in considering a transport intervention. The focus of this stage is to define the transport problem, set out the objectives of the scheme, and explore the options for intervention
So the only funding on the line (not the protection of the station which is separate) is to develop the SOBC - nothing more. And the vast majority of those which produce an SOBC don't progress to delivery as @Bald Rick has pointed out on many, many other threads. For me, this one fails on several counts - (1) Oswestry is not a large place (pop'n 17,500 in 2021 census) (2) Gobowen station is 3 miles away from Oswestry town centre - a dedicated bus link with through ticketing would be easier, quicker and cheaper to set up and could be up and running in a matter of months (3) all that's being proposed is a 'shuttle' to Gobowen - which is inefficient as a way of running a link like this and the layout at Gobowen means to serve the real traffic destination of Shrewsbury or Telford would mean a reversal, all of which adds time to the journey. That's before you even start talking about crossing the A5.
@A0wen. I would agree with you. I've already sent in a FOIR to the Department for Transport asking for their response to the SOBC from CHRL, but I've no idea if the document will be released to an ordinary member of the public.
As to costs regarding restoration of the both stations, yes they are seperate from funding streams available for the restoration of the line, but the main benefit goes to the project of restoring an operating service between Oswestry and Gobowen, as the Shropshire Council powerpoint presentation attached above indicates.
Regarding the matter of the Gobowen station work requirements, it was mentioned that councillors were involved in the body that is charged with restoration fund spending of the grant monies. Surely, in their position, they would have been aware of the Grade II listed status there and how that would affect the finance outlay of any works needed to be carried out.
@A0wen. I would agree with you. I've already sent in a FOIR to the Department for Transport asking for their response to the SOBC from CHRL, but I've no idea if the document will be released to an ordinary member of the public.
As to costs regarding restoration of the both stations, yes they are seperate from funding streams available for the restoration of the line, but the main benefit goes to the project of restoring an operating service between Oswestry and Gobowen, as the Shropshire Council powerpoint presentation attached above indicates.
On the first one - the outcome of the SOBC submission will be published in due course - though I wouldn't expect the public response to be any more detailed than it has been on other such submissions. The likelihood is that one or two posters on here who are better informed may well be able to elaborate as to the shortcomings of the case if it is rejected (which I personally expect it to be).
On the second point - that is not correct about Gobowen station. The buildings are being conserved *for community use* not as railway buildings. So uses such as community meeting space, cafe or similar. They are not being conserved to be station buildings for a railway service which is unlikely to happen in the next 2 decades.
Regarding the matter of the Gobowen station work requirements, it was mentioned that councillors were involved in the body that is charged with restoration fund spending of the grant monies. Surely, in their position, they would have been aware of the Grade II listed status there and how that would affect the finance outlay of any works needed to be carried out.
Anyone proposing restoration or works on a listed building should be aware of the listing and what it entails. In reality, it usually means that for even "simple" maintenance works there will need to be some form of official permission for the works (not necessarily full planning consent hence my choice of words) and usually a professional architect will have been involved in the specification of the works to ensure it meets with the requirements of the listing.
The Gobowen Area Improvement Group (GAIP) have announced they had completed the purchase of the buildings on both the up and down platforms at Gobowen Station. The station buildings had been in pri…
The Gobowen Area Improvement Group (GAIP) have announced they had completed the purchase of the buildings on both the up and down platforms at Gobowen Station. The station buildings had been in pri…
The Italian style part Gobowen Station (not used by the railway) was renovated some years ago using an EU grant. Part of the building it still being used by an accountancy business.
So much money has already been spent on this project and I don't think my council or my MP(s) have the knowledge and experience of you people on this site.
Frankly, neither will some of the "consultants" they employ on generous financial terms.
As an example, when there was talk of Crewe station being moved to the area of Basford Hall Junction with a shuttle link to Crewe itself I asked the consultants if there were any examples of such an arrangement working in the U.K.
The answer? "Warrington. You get the long-distance train to Bank Quay then change for a local service to Central"
On the first one - the outcome of the SOBC submission will be published in due course - though I wouldn't expect the public response to be any more detailed than it has been on other such submissions. The likelihood is that one or two posters on here who are better informed may well be able to elaborate as to the shortcomings of the case if it is rejected (which I personally expect it to be).
On the second point - that is not correct about Gobowen station. The buildings are being conserved *for community use* not as railway buildings. So uses such as community meeting space, cafe or similar. They are not being conserved to be station buildings for a railway service which is unlikely to happen in the next 2 decades.
Anyone proposing restoration or works on a listed building should be aware of the listing and what it entails. In reality, it usually means that for even "simple" maintenance works there will need to be some form of official permission for the works (not necessarily full planning consent hence my choice of words) and usually a professional architect will have been involved in the specification of the works to ensure it meets with the requirements of the listing.
Many thanks. Regarding the SOBC and my FOIR: I've already been in touch with the company that drew up the document, and as I recall they said it was sent to the railway operator some time ago and that I should approach them if I wanted to see it.
My relationship with the operator is not on the best of terms as I have been a fairly lone voice on the viability of the restoration project so it is highly unlikely that they'd show me the document. Also, I'm guessing that I wouldn't be allowed sight of the SOBC as it's a contract between a private company and a charity. But once submitted to the DfT, I'm guessing (again) that the Department's reply would be a public document.
Regarding restoration of the Gobowen Station "for community use" - not as railway buildings. According to Selattyn & Gobowen Parish Council "The Gobowen Area Improvement Project (GAIP) was an unconstituted partnership of local organisations and individuals. According to Parish Council records the organisations and individuals involved were Cambrian Heritage Railways, Chester Shrewsbury Community Rail Officer, Three Parishes Big Local, Shrewsbury Chester Rail Users Association, Severn Dee Travel Rail Agency and Gobowen Station Adopter."
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
There was a drop in session regarding Shropshire Council's plans to restore the exterior of Oswestry Railway Station yesterday. I was unable to attend but earlier today I sent the following questions to the project manager:
Please can you give me details of the problems with the building and the cost to repair along with where the money is coming from to do the work.
I also need to know who has been responsible for maintaining the building up to this point, and who will be maintaining once restoration work is complete.
Who is currently using the building (and for what purpose) and who will be using it once restoration work is complete (and for what purpose)?
Finally, has Shropshire Council received any formal notification that the Department for Transport has agreed to the restoration of the railway line between Oswestry and Gobowen?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
And Shropshire Council responded:
Q1 - details of the problems with the building and the cost to repair along with where the money is coming from to do the work.
This information is published in the Cabinet report (item 103 on the agenda on 17th January 2024 which can be accesses and down loaded here, but I have copied the Cabinet recommendations and decisions below: Agenda for Cabinet on Wednesday, 17th January, 2024, 10.30 am — Shropshire Council
In summary the Council has secured an offer of a 70% grant upto the value of £630,250 from the Government’s UK Shared Prosperity Fund, and this is being matched by 30% / £270,107 of Council capital which will be funded through borrowing. These funds will be used to repair the exterior of the building, most notable the replacement of the asbestos tiled roof with Welsh Slate and the re-fixing of the ornate cement corbels to make them safe – the building will also be painted and the weathered brick and stone work repaired.
Q3 - Who is currently using the building (and for what purpose) and who will be using it once restoration work is complete (and for what purpose)?
The Ground floor of the Building is currently let to Cambrian Heritage Railway Ltd, a local volunteer heritage railway conservation charity- they operate rail excursions from the Station and have re-opened the café for victors when they are open. The first floor is currently vacant – more work is needed to make this floor suitable for re-use because there is currently no operational heating system in the building and it does not meet insulation standards. The drop-in session yesterday was an opportunity for our Architects to present their draft proposals for re-use and restoration of the interior and their recommended approach to the First floor is to adapt for residential use which would provide a revenue to fund the future maintenance and borrowing repairs. The reports has not been issued yet, but will be made public once the draft has been received and reviewed later this summer.
I recently put in a freedom of information request via www.whatdotheyknow.com to the Department for Transport with the following request:
‘...a copy of the Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) along with any related
documentation submitted by Cambrian Heritage Railways Limited in the autumn of
2022 in relation to the restoration of the Oswestry to Gobowen branch railway line.
‘...a copy of the Department for Transport's response to Cambrian Heritages Railways
Ltd Strategic Outline Business Case in relation to the restoration of the Oswestry to
Gobown [sic] branch line, including any of the Department's conditions and caveats.’
The response is quite a long detailed PDF document that, given its size, I doubt I'll be able to attach here, so here goes... If it doesn't work, I'll try and break it down into small managable sections to attach individually - when I get time. Failing that, if any memebers want to request sight of any particular section, let me know and I'll cut that out and attach it here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I recently put in a freedom of information request via www.whatdotheyknow.com to the Department for Transport with the following request:
‘...a copy of the Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) along with any related
documentation submitted by Cambrian Heritage Railways Limited in the autumn of
2022 in relation to the restoration of the Oswestry to Gobowen branch railway line.
‘...a copy of the Department for Transport's response to Cambrian Heritages Railways
Ltd Strategic Outline Business Case in relation to the restoration of the Oswestry to
Gobown [sic] branch line, including any of the Department's conditions and caveats.’
The response is quite a long detailed PDF document that, given its size, I doubt I'll be able to attach here, so here goes... If it doesn't work, I'll try and break it down into small managable sections to attach individually - when I get time. Failing that, if any memebers want to request sight of any particular section, let me know and I'll cut that out and attach it here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
PDF24 is a good site for splitting up PDFs, and the relevant sections will be the Strategic and Economic dimensions of the Business Case. If you can find the table with the BCRs, that's probably the key bit!
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
