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Concessionary pass remuneration

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PeterC

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So I understand, but do you know whether (and if so where), a list of such exists? I'm thinking of having a day out with my ENCTS pass from Chester to Shrewsbury - in one direction via Whitchurch, in the other via Oswestry and Wrexham.

Chester > Whitchurch > Shrewsbury is no problem, as the routes remain within England. Ditto Shrewsbury > Oswestry. However Oswestry > Wrexham involves crossing into Wales, and Wrexham > Chester involves crossing back again.

Grateful for any relevant info anyone on this forum may have.
You will need to research each route individually. There seems to be a separate agreement with each English border county. I know that from Monmouth and Chepstow the only English passes accepted are those issued by Gloucestershire.*

Unless you have verified otherwise I would assume that only locally issued cards are valid.

* I assuming that this hasn't changed in the past 12 months
 
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Teapot42

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Just to add to my earlier comments . . . as far as cross-boundary routes are concerned, the authority in which the journey starts pays the piper!!
Thanks for the detailed post, very interesting. I'm sure there will be more to ask, but to touch on one point you raise, and to touch on what Ken H mentioned, where a service is split in to several registrations, how does this work? Does it just count as a single journey? Or several - does a different registration count as a new journey beginning? If it counts as several within the same county then I'd imagine it's easy enough to sort out with the LA in question, but if the new journey starts in a different county I'd imagine that gets more complicated.
 

stevieinselby

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Surely the most sensible solution would be to means test the bus pass - if ‘free’ tv licence’s can be linked to pension credit eligibility, I see no reason why free bus passes can’t. Other pensioners would then revert back to the half fare bus pass.
Potentially politically challenging in the short term, but better than the system collapsing. If not, the funding needs revising to make it sustainable, but you’re then spending more money on a freebie for reasonable well off pensioners when public funds are tight.
I've seen it said that the benefit-to-cost ratio is highly positive for the ENCTS pass – in other words, every £1 spent on the scheme generates significantly more than £1 in economic boost. People going for days out that they otherwise wouldn't have done, and spending more freely because the journey has been free, all helps the economy in ways that our very narrow approach to expenditure and income doesn't capture, because the benefits accrued are not accounted for in the money spent.

Means-testing adds more barriers and inevitably puts in a cliff-edge where plenty of people would be left on the wrong side of the line – many people who really do benefit from the scheme and are not so well off that they could afford to make all of those journeys without thinking about the cost. It also adds an admin cost that isn't there with a universal scheme, and would reduce the number of people using buses (including some people who really need every encouragement we can give them to stop driving), which would reduce the viability of those routes further.

I would much rather see universal benefits with a higher tax take from people who can afford to pay it, rather than putting in place an arbitrary cut-off at which point people do/don't get the benefit.
This has happened to an extent, but it is (the £2 scheme aside) worth noting that anyone who travelled more than a few times a week would typically buy a weekly or monthly pass anyway, which are typically priced far below a return journey per day. Thus if you're going to base it on anything commercial, that would be the thing to use.
Would many pensioners have been travelling regularly enough to make it worth their while buying a pass (especially if not all journeys were with the same bus company)? I would be surprised if it was that common, but happy to defer to people with first-hand experience if they say otherwise.
Data the ONS collected between 2016 and 2018 shows that one in five households (22%) in Great Britain, where the main householder (the person responsible for household finances) is over 65, have a household wealth of over a million pounds.

The data also shows that one in four people aged over 65 (25%) lived in a household with a total wealth of over a million pounds.

So 20-25% of ENCTS passholders have wealth in excess of £1 million. They can enjoy free bus rides when they're on holiday in England, meanwhile college kids pay to get to college.
That doesn't help much if most of that £1m is tied up in the value of the house that you've lived in for 40 years though.
Yes, some pensioners genuinely are very well off ... but how many of those travel by bus regularly? Their ENCTS use isn't costing the public purse very much if they only use it once every few months!
Why does ENCTs have to be free. I would have thought a 50p fare for over (say) 5 miles would be fair. Giving people free bus rides for journeys like Newcastle - Berwick, Leeds - Scarborough, Skipton - Lancaster or Lancaster - Keswick is not a good use of taxpayers money IMHO
It's a tricky one, because wherever you draw the line, there will be people who can make a good argument for extending it a little bit further in their case – and wherever you draw the line, you will create perverse incentives and it will in itself influence travel patterns. Not to mention that when you introduce a nominal sum at a nice round number, after a few years inflation means that it is not worth as much, but it's then much harder to increase that nominal sum than it would be to increase a commercial charge. How much difference do you think a charge of 50p on a journey from Leeds to Scarborough would make (1) to the passenger, (ii) to the council, or (c) to the bus company?
What happens on those buses where the bus runs through but on a different registration? The 555 Lancaster - Keswick does that. As does the 81/82 -581-580 Lancaster - Skipton. I dont think you have to re-do your pass tap, you just sit tight.
I am sure there are other routes like this in England, but I have given ones local to me as examples.
I think it generally works along the lines of, if you can buy a through ticket from one end of the combined route to the other then you don't have to re-swipe your pass, because the reimbursement rate is based on the fares sold.
 

Dai Corner

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Thanks for the detailed post, very interesting. I'm sure there will be more to ask, but to touch on one point you raise, and to touch on what Ken H mentioned, where a service is split in to several registrations, how does this work? Does it just count as a single journey? Or several - does a different registration count as a new journey beginning? If it counts as several within the same county then I'd imagine it's easy enough to sort out with the LA in question, but if the new journey starts in a different county I'd imagine that gets more complicated.
Unless cardholders are required to rescan where the registration changes how would anybody know? That's never happened to me, although I'd have been happy to do so if asked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I've seen it said that the benefit-to-cost ratio is highly positive for the ENCTS pass – in other words, every £1 spent on the scheme generates significantly more than £1 in economic boost. People going for days out that they otherwise wouldn't have done, and spending more freely because the journey has been free, all helps the economy in ways that our very narrow approach to expenditure and income doesn't capture, because the benefits accrued are not accounted for in the money spent.
I often get the 'free' bus into Town for a few pints whereas I wouldn't get a taxi which would cost me more than my beer. Whether that's behaviour the taxpayer ought to be encouraging I'll leave open to discussion!
 
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Ken H

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@stevieinselby there are people of pension age with bus pases who are working. You can defer state pension and get a higher rate when you claim later. But you can get a bus pass at state pension age. So working people with pensioner bus pases wont be that rare.
 

richw

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I don't know how cross-border journeys England <> Scotland or Wales are accounted for . . . theoretically in the same way, although England passes would NOT be valid for local journeys in Scotland . . .does anyone know for sure??
Welsh and Scottish cards aren’t valid here in England so assume the opposite way round for English cards in those places too
 

Haywain

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Welsh and Scottish cards aren’t valid here in England so assume the opposite way round for English cards in those places too
English passes are not valid in Wales or Scotland (subject to some minor exceptions which are of no use to the vast majority of pass holders).
 
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Dai Corner

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Welsh and Scottish cards aren’t valid here in England so assume the opposite way round for English cards in those places too
Welsh cards are valid for cross-border journeys starting or finishing in Wales. I've used mine to get from Chepstow to Coleford in Gloucestershire and Bristol. They're not valid for journeys wholly in England though.
 

Ken H

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Welsh cards are valid for cross-border journeys starting or finishing in Wales. I've used mine to get from Chepstow to Coleford in Gloucestershire and Bristol. They're not valid for journeys wholly in England though.
Bit orf topic but that is silly. There should be a UK scheme. Not 4 separate ones.
 

Deerfold

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Welsh and Scottish cards aren’t valid here in England so assume the opposite way round for English cards in those places too
Generally, no, but as discussed earlier in this thread there is a small amount of acceptance that has been negotiated around border areas.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

English passes are not valid in Wales or Scotland.



4.2 The Cheshire Consortium Scheme The concession to be offered by operators participating in the scheme to all Cheshire Passholders as defined in Section 2.2 above shall be: (a) Free travel on all journeys where the concessionaire boards at or after 9.30am until the last bus on weekdays, provided passengers are not charged a fare other than that which would otherwise be charged during the day; and on all journeys where the concessionaire boards at any time on a Saturday and Sunday or on any day which is a Bank Holiday in England under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 or any public holiday introduced since the 1971 Act proclaimed by the King. (b) Free travel as appropriate on journeys which commence in the scheme area and end in Wales and vice versa for Cheshire Consortium pass holders. (c) Free travel for blind and partially sighted people at all times. Blin
 
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PeterC

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Welsh cards are valid for cross-border journeys starting or finishing in Wales. I've used mine to get from Chepstow to Coleford in Gloucestershire and Bristol. They're not valid for journeys wholly in England though.
There isn't general cross border acceptance only Welsh and Gloucestershire cards are valid to cross the Wye into Chepstow or Monmouth.*

It would be most unfair on the residents of Redbrook otherwise with only one bus route that only links them to Wales. Are there any other settlements that only have a cross border link?

Edit
Partly answered that question as Chepstow has suburbs on the English side. Sedbury and Beachley only have a local route that links them to Chepstow.

* OK I know that both banks are in Wales from Monmouth to Redbrook.
 
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GusB

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We are supposed to be discussing how concessionary passes are remunerated, so let's please stick that subject. Thanks :)
 

Deerfold

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Bit orf topic but that is silly. There should be a UK scheme. Not 4 separate ones.
Transport is devolved. Everything else to do with buses is legislated at the national level. I'm sure if there was just one scheme, it wouldn't match the most generous benefits of the current four. Though operators may prefer payments to be set at a national level in line with the most generous.
 

sprunt

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Before ENCTS was a thing, and senior citizens just had bus passes they could use locally, was this an issue then? Is there any information available about what proportion of ENCTS journeys are made outside the area for which the pass was issued? To what extent, if any, has ENCTS specifically caused a problem that wouldn't have arisen if the previous system had been kept?
 

PeterC

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Before ENCTS was a thing, and senior citizens just had bus passes they could use locally, was this an issue then? Is there any information available about what proportion of ENCTS journeys are made outside the area for which the pass was issued? To what extent, if any, has ENCTS specifically caused a problem that wouldn't have arisen if the previous system had been kept?
I think that the main issue is use in popular holiday destinations. Formerly this would have only been for the home and some neighbouring authorities.

That of course is from the remuneration side. It was far more complex for the drivers as there could be different rules in each distri t council area that the route crossed..
 

greenline712

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I think that the main issue is use in popular holiday destinations. Formerly this would have only been for the home and some neighbouring authorities.

That of course is from the remuneration side. It was far more complex for the drivers as there could be different rules in each distri t council area that the route crossed..
Prior to ENCTS, half fare passes were only valid locally within the LTA that issued them; so a Herts CC pass was valid within Herts, PLUS for specific x-boundary trips without changing buses, so Luton or Harlow were OK; Bedford or Chelmsford were not.
And no, a Surrey pass was NOT valid to Luton on Green Line 727 ... I think Kingston was the boundary there.
And yes .... drivers had to be on the ball .... on 727 I think we had over 20 passes to deal with [sometimes Districts would have different validates validities, usually time related], which confused matters even more .... no smart cards then!!
 
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Deerfold

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Prior to ENCTS, half fare passes were only valid locally within the LTA that issued them; so a Herts CC pass was valid within Herts, PLUS for specific x-boundary trips without changing buses, so Luton or Harlow were OK; Bedford or Chelmsford were not.
Except where agreements existed. And they weren't all half-fare.

In West Yorkshire there was a fare of 15p. They were also accepted in Greater Manchester (and reciprocally) with payment of the GM fare of 30p. So a cross-boundary journey that was normally £1.50 would be 45p. So you could get from Halifax to Manchester for 90p.
 
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There isn't general cross border acceptance only Welsh and Gloucestershire cards are valid to cross the Wye into Chepstow or Monmouth.*

It would be most unfair on the residents of Redbrook otherwise with only one bus route that only links them to Wales. Are there any other settlements that only have a cross border link?

Edit
Partly answered that question as Chepstow has suburbs on the English side. Sedbury and Beachley only have a local route that links them to Chepstow.

* OK I know that both banks are in Wales from Monmouth to Redbrook.
The general rule is that bus passes are valid for cross-boundary journeys, but not for journeys wholly within the other country. So Welsh passe are valid on route T7 to go from Chepstow to Bristol, or Bristol to Chepstow, or Chepstow to Cribbs Causeway or Cribbs causeway to Chepstow - but not to go from Cribbs Causeway to Bristol.

So obviously Englsih passes are valid on route 69. It does admittedly get complicated in that on that route as a) you can go from Wales to Wales through England and b) the only bus stop for the village of Brockweir, which is on the English side of the river Wye is actually Brockweir Bridge which is on the Welsh side

FWIW reimbursement is generally by boarding. So on the T7 Newport Bus gets reimbursed by Monmouthshire for all trips that start in Chepstow, whether Welsh or English pass, and by Bristol for all trips that start there.

There are some small cross-operators that are only set up on one side, so they get all their reimbursement from there. For example Yeomans runs from Herefordshire into Abergavenny on Tuesdays. They are not set up with Monmouthshire, I presume even if you board at Abergavenny with a pass Herefordshire would reimburse. When Anslow run the 69 they were not set up with Gloucestershire, and Monmouthshire reimbursed for any passholder that boarded in Redbrook. The numbers were tiny.
 

Haywain

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The general rule is that bus passes are valid for cross-boundary journeys, but not for journeys wholly within the other country.
I'm not sure that's the case. Boarding a bus in Chester to go to Hawarden resulted in my wife being charged the fare for the Welsh segment of the journey (which was rather more than the £2 flat fare I had paid a few moments earlier).
 
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My apologies. I should have been clearer, it is true in southeast Wales - for all routes in & out of Monmouthshire. I don’t know about Chester
 

markymark2000

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I'm not sure that's the case. Boarding a bus in Chester to go to Hawarden resulted in my wife being charged the fare for the Welsh segment of the journey (which was rather more than the £2 flat fare I had paid a few moments earlier).
For England bus passes, cross border travel is a local enhancement and not a national one. For example, North Wales cross border travel is only valid for people who have a Cheshire ENCTS bus pass (issued by Warrington, Halton or Cheshire West) and you must board or alight in Cheshire West. Or you need a Wales bus pass which is valid for all cross border journeys but you must board or alight in Wales.


To go cross border on the T7, you either need a Wales pass or a certain pass issued by an authority in the West of England Combined Authority.
English Pass Validity
Diamond Travelcards
(from Bristol/South Gloucestershire/North Somerset/Bath & North East Somerset) are valid for free travel throughout the route, apart from journeys wholly within Wales. They are only valid from 0900 onwards on Mondays to Fridays and all day on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. The Diamond Travelcards with Companion entitlement also allows a companion to travel if required, with the same geographic and time restrictions as detailed above.

South Gloucestershire and Bristol City also issue Platinum Travelcards, with and without companion entitlement. These cards have the same geographic and time restrictions as Diamond Travelcards except that South Gloucestershire Platinum Travelcards can also be used all day every day for journeys starting in South Gloucestershire whilst Bristol City Platinum Travelcards can also be used all day every day for journeys starting in Bristol City.

ENCTS Concessionary passes from elsewhere in England are valid for free travel for journeys within England only between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays and at any time at weekends and public holidays. They are not valid for travel to and from Wales or within Wales. No companion or other enhancements are offered even if normally available for that pass in the cardholder’s local area.
 
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