I've been challenged while having a quiet drink and told to get rid of it. I remember the day when the Scotrail refreshment trolley sold an excellent selection of single mails which complimented the journey on the West Highland Line very nicely!
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Scotrail’s alcohol ban - pointless?
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Mainliner
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The alcohol ban and the woefully inadequate trolley service on some routes (especially the West Highland line) spoiled what was otherwise a very enjoyable recent tour using the Scottish Grand Tour rover ticket.
This does nothing to encourage tourism by rail (quite the opposite, as I won’t be doing a similar trip again unless and until things improve), but the SNP doesn’t seem to care. It was embarrassingly poor from Mallaig to Glasgow, especially for the many tourists from overseas, when there was no trolley from Mallaig to Crianlarich, and by the time the trolley from the Oban portion made its way through the rest of the train, there was very little left on it. The guard laughingly told people that they might just be able to buy refreshments during the longer Fort William stop, and indeed my companion did so, but with seconds to spare, due to an inevitable queue at the cafe. A shambolic state of affairs on one of the country’s iconic scenic routes.
I stopped using the Caledonian Sleeper after the introduction of the not fit for purpose new stock, but I see it still advertises its extensive alcoholic drinks menu - do they only serve these going north, or do they actually start to serve them when the train crosses the border going south, when almost everyone will be asleep?
185143
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The alcohol menu is served immediately upon boarding in either direction.
Yes, that Caledonian Sleeper which has the same ownership as ScotRail!
jagardner1984
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A perfect example of one size fits all both not working, and also not fitting all (See CS above).
In terms of Glasgow commuter routes / football trains - I fully support it, the inability of people to “have a quiet drink” is, sadly, all too obvious. That said, most Saturday night trains I have been on have people “having a quiet drink” and are largely ignored by the staff. I don’t blame them avoiding conflict and I don’t have an issue. The messaging that being or getting drunk and incapable next to a live railway is I think important and necessary, sadly.
Conversely on routes which would almost certainly have no football traffic, and which are generally slow, lengthy, tourist routes which are unlikely to be used by anyone as “the party train” I can’t see any issue with selling people a drink or two for their own moderate / quiet consumption.
I do think however that whilst fine upstanding citizens of RailUK may be perfectly capable of behaving sensibly on trains and moderating their intake, we do not design the laws on shoplifting around the 95% of people who dutifully queue up and pay for their goods, but the 5% who do not. It is a mark of privilege if you personally feel happy to be on a train with those paralytically drunk and are not concerned about your own safety or that of others. That privilege is not universal.
In terms of Glasgow commuter routes / football trains - I fully support it, the inability of people to “have a quiet drink” is, sadly, all too obvious. That said, most Saturday night trains I have been on have people “having a quiet drink” and are largely ignored by the staff. I don’t blame them avoiding conflict and I don’t have an issue. The messaging that being or getting drunk and incapable next to a live railway is I think important and necessary, sadly.
Conversely on routes which would almost certainly have no football traffic, and which are generally slow, lengthy, tourist routes which are unlikely to be used by anyone as “the party train” I can’t see any issue with selling people a drink or two for their own moderate / quiet consumption.
I do think however that whilst fine upstanding citizens of RailUK may be perfectly capable of behaving sensibly on trains and moderating their intake, we do not design the laws on shoplifting around the 95% of people who dutifully queue up and pay for their goods, but the 5% who do not. It is a mark of privilege if you personally feel happy to be on a train with those paralytically drunk and are not concerned about your own safety or that of others. That privilege is not universal.
Buzby
Established Member
Most visitors by rail don’t make it further north than Aberdeen/Inverness so it’s hardly a problem. Maybe you like travelling on rowdy trains for the enforced camaraderie? Anyway, after using the FNL you need a drink after you disembark.
Mainliner
Member
Ah, what a surprise, not! A rule for other people not applying to a service purportedly used by SMPs…
The oil workers like a drink after spending a month on a dry rig. They are usually bladdered by Berwick on Tweed and get slung off the train. 
I think between 2pm and 3pm there is a Scotrail from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and a LNER train, one is dry one is not.
I think between 2pm and 3pm there is a Scotrail from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and a LNER train, one is dry one is not.
185143
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The 09:52 LNER from Aberdeen has been dry on Fridays as far as Newcastle for quite some time. I'm all for bans on a limited train by train basis with valid reason such as this one. It's not just the offshore workers either, anyone who's been to Newcastle of a weekend will know how many hen/stag parties descend on Newcastle on weekends.The oil workers like a drink after spending a month on a dry rig. They are usually bladdered by Berwick on Tweed and get slung off the train.
I think between 2pm and 3pm there is a Scotrail from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and a LNER train, one is dry one is not.
And unlike ScotRail's ban, is (in my admittedly limited) experience, well enforced with a visible security presence who will walk through the train and challenge people who appear to be drinking alcohol.
Skymonster
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When I travelled on a longer Scotrail service a year or two back I did what I tend to do when I think I might enjoy an alcoholic beverage during a journey. Knowing that any trolley service - if indeed there was one - would only offer over-priced and unchilled drinks, I dropped into a Tesco Express and bought a couple of refrigerated pre-mixed cans. I decanted them into the insulated drinks container I tend to carry when I know I’ll be out and about for more than an hour or two (primarily used to keep non-alcoholic beverages cool). I poured my G&Ts from that - it looked like sparkling water and no one except me was any the wiser. So yes the ban is pointless, because its largely unenforceable as far as those who wish to circumvent the rules and are prepared to think a little about how to are concerned.
Didn't find much, if anything, wrong with the sleeper when I used it a couple of weeks ago but you are allowed to purchase and drink alcohol on the southbound service and whilst within Scotland, as I did.
I used to catch that train from Inverkeithing down to Kings Cross for main leave when i joined the navy in the late eighties. The navy wasnt a well paid job then and we used to smuggle crates of small tins of "Red Death" (McEwans Export) off the ship for the trip down south. The oil workers used to make us silly offers for our beers and then when the buffet reopened after Edinburgh used to buy us drinks as well. I think many of them in those days were ex-forces. I can remember people being very drunk but I dont think there was ever much serious trouble.
cf111
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A wee beer on the train to or from Inverness was one of life's small pleasures and I do miss it.
dk1
Veteran Member
I'd go somewhere else instead. So draconian.
GusB
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What is a SMP?
Deafdoggie
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Scottish Member of Parliament
jagardner1984
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There is a certain …. phobia around some posts on here about those elected representatives in Scotland and their actions around this policy, and others.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on individual politicians and their motivations and intentions.
However, much as I think politicians in Wales and NI are also faced with unenviable choices and forced to make balanced decisions, politicians in Scotland are faced with simple facts such as these.
Alcohol Deaths in England - 13.8/100k of Population
Alcohol Deaths in Scotland - 22.6/100k of Population
However, since policies such as Minimum Unit Pricing, and this, the growth in Alcohol deaths has risen by 34% in England, and by 22% in Scotland. Therefore there is some evidence of an impact.
www.holyrood.com
This isn’t and has never been about those having “a quiet drink” - as is well documented this is largely ignored anyway - and you of course may not like the impact of these policies on you. But politicians facing the many bereaved families of alcohol abuse, who are 4.3 times more likely to come from Scotland’s poorest communities than the wealthiest, face a choice of some action or inaction. MUP, for example, was voted for by the Lib Dem’s, the Conservatives, the Greens as well as the SNP. I’m not sure, if I were in their shoes, in all good conscience I could do nothing.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on individual politicians and their motivations and intentions.
However, much as I think politicians in Wales and NI are also faced with unenviable choices and forced to make balanced decisions, politicians in Scotland are faced with simple facts such as these.
Alcohol Deaths in England - 13.8/100k of Population
Alcohol Deaths in Scotland - 22.6/100k of Population
However, since policies such as Minimum Unit Pricing, and this, the growth in Alcohol deaths has risen by 34% in England, and by 22% in Scotland. Therefore there is some evidence of an impact.
Scotland continues to have the highest rate of alcohol deaths in the UK
In 2022, there were 1,276 alcohol-related deaths - 22.6 people per 100,000 - and the total has risen from 1,245 in 2021
www.holyrood.com
This isn’t and has never been about those having “a quiet drink” - as is well documented this is largely ignored anyway - and you of course may not like the impact of these policies on you. But politicians facing the many bereaved families of alcohol abuse, who are 4.3 times more likely to come from Scotland’s poorest communities than the wealthiest, face a choice of some action or inaction. MUP, for example, was voted for by the Lib Dem’s, the Conservatives, the Greens as well as the SNP. I’m not sure, if I were in their shoes, in all good conscience I could do nothing.
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Act 2012 - Wikipedia
There is a certain …. phobia around some posts on here about those elected representatives in Scotland and their actions around this policy, and others.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on individual politicians and their motivations and intentions.
However, much as I think politicians in Wales and NI are also faced with unenviable choices and forced to make balanced decisions, politicians in Scotland are faced with simple facts such as these.
Alcohol Deaths in England - 13.8/100k of Population
Alcohol Deaths in Scotland - 22.6/100k of Population
However, since policies such as Minimum Unit Pricing, and this, the growth in Alcohol deaths has risen by 34% in England, and by 22% in Scotland. Therefore there is some evidence of an impact.
Scotland continues to have the highest rate of alcohol deaths in the UK
In 2022, there were 1,276 alcohol-related deaths - 22.6 people per 100,000 - and the total has risen from 1,245 in 2021
This isn’t and has never been about those having “a quiet drink” - as is well documented this is largely ignored anyway - and you of course may not like the impact of these policies on you. But politicians facing the many bereaved families of alcohol abuse, who are 4.3 times more likely to come from Scotland’s poorest communities than the wealthiest, face a choice of some action or inaction. MUP, for example, was voted for by the Lib Dem’s, the Conservatives, the Greens as well as the SNP. I’m not sure, if I were in their shoes, in all good conscience I could do nothing.
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Act 2012 - Wikipedia
The minimum unit price is a sensible policy designed to improve public health. That is precisely what Governments should be doing.
The ban on people having a quiet drink on the train isn't. (Whether it's enforced or not is neither here nor there, it's still a ban).
Buzby
Established Member
Factually incorrect. Which Parliament? Is MSP actually the point Being made?
There's clearly a rationale to it, and I have every sympathy with politicians who face this sort of crisis.There is a certain …. phobia around some posts on here about those elected representatives in Scotland and their actions around this policy, and others.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views on individual politicians and their motivations and intentions.
However, much as I think politicians in Wales and NI are also faced with unenviable choices and forced to make balanced decisions, politicians in Scotland are faced with simple facts such as these.
Alcohol Deaths in England - 13.8/100k of Population
Alcohol Deaths in Scotland - 22.6/100k of Population
However, since policies such as Minimum Unit Pricing, and this, the growth in Alcohol deaths has risen by 34% in England, and by 22% in Scotland. Therefore there is some evidence of an impact.
Scotland continues to have the highest rate of alcohol deaths in the UK
In 2022, there were 1,276 alcohol-related deaths - 22.6 people per 100,000 - and the total has risen from 1,245 in 2021
This isn’t and has never been about those having “a quiet drink” - as is well documented this is largely ignored anyway - and you of course may not like the impact of these policies on you. But politicians facing the many bereaved families of alcohol abuse, who are 4.3 times more likely to come from Scotland’s poorest communities than the wealthiest, face a choice of some action or inaction. MUP, for example, was voted for by the Lib Dem’s, the Conservatives, the Greens as well as the SNP. I’m not sure, if I were in their shoes, in all good conscience I could do nothing.
Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Act 2012 - Wikipedia
But I'd call attention to the point in bold. The poorest communities are affected 4.3 times more than the wealthiest - this is a far greater divide than the one between England and Scotland. The internal variations within Scotland are huge - some communities face a really severe crisis, while others will have figures more in line with England. Unfortunately there's not a regional breakdown, but it would seem to me likely that former Strathclyde will have significantly higher figures than the eastern side of Scotland, and especially the Highlands. A blanket policy just doesn't make sense here - Glasgow suburban services are totally different to rural lines or intercity journeys (though I accept there is a little overlap, such as the southern end of the West Highland Line).
I'll leave with an illustration of why this internal variation matters. The new Northumberland Line will serve a major city known for its heavy drinking culture and then a mix of commuter villages and deprived ex mining towns in its hinterland. A hundred miles further north, the Fife Circle does much the same thing. Why is it the case that I can drink on one, but not the other? The figures sadly aren't detailed enough here, but I would be very surprised if alcohol related deaths were significantly lower in the North East of England than they were in the Lothians and Fife...
Buzby
Established Member
There’s no refreshments available on the Fife Circle (or indeed on any of the commuter/urban lines) and I doubt those in the Newcastle extension area will either. If we were talking about the provision of defibrillators on trains I’d be sympathetic - but a drink? If someone cannot manage an hour or two they have bigger problems and should seek assistance from a trained professional - not complain bitterly that their chosen mode of transport doesn’t provide their drug of choice.
No - but if you bought a drink at Central Station you'd be able to have it on the train to Ashington, whereas if you bought a drink at Waverley you wouldn't be able to drink it on the train to Kirkcaldy.
As it happens, I'm not too fussed about this from a personal point of view - I rarely drink on trains anyway and if I do it'll be on a long distance intercity service, heading home of an evening. I'm just highlighting a policy difference between two otherwise rather similar services (in terms of demographics and geography).
snookertam
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Leaving aside the issue of drinking on suburban train services and whether it should be allowed or not, the issue is not whether someone can manage without a drink, but whether they should have the right to enjoy a drink. Not everyone who drinks alcohol is addicted to it, and they can very well go without for the duration of the train journey, it’s an issue of personal choice within reasonable parameters.
The alcohol ban is pointless, because if you travel on almost any train in the Glasgow area on a Friday evening or a Saturday afternoon, you’ll find most people enjoying a drink on their way to the pub or whatever else they are doing. Meanwhile the minority who are minded to, and indeed do, engage in alcohol fuelled anti social behaviour are now going to be put off by rules and regulations telling them not to.
And by extension, those who do pay heed to rules and regulations are now questioning whether they want to use the train for their journeys. Previously they could have relaxed and enjoyed a quiet drink en route with friends, now that’s taken away from them they question what is the point of the train?
Appreciate there is a big problem with alcohol addiction in Scotland and that measures should be taken to address this. Introducing blanket prohibitive laws that impact the bulk of the population are not, I would argue, the optimal way to address it. There seems to be a belief at times that any person who consumes alcohol just therefore be addicted to it, that is not the case. There are far wider social and cultural changes that are needed to address Scotland’s relationship with the drink, and stopping someone from have a drink on their way from the central belt to Inverness or Aberdeen is a bizarre response that misses the target completely.
As a wider point, the railway as a whole seems to take quite an authoritarian attitude towards its customers at times, particularly in Scotland. Almost as if we should be lucky to have it. Customer facing staff in Scotland regularly have the same attitude of disdain towards the travelling public. This ban feeds into such a culture. It’s not an industry that can afford to retain such an attitude.
DelW
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I doubt whether many, if indeed any, of those dying from alcoholism, would have bought or drunk much of their alcohol on trains. They're much more likely to be sitting near a corner shop with a can of strong lager, a 2 litre bottle of cider, or a bottle of Buckie.
The minimum price will affect and probably reduce that behaviour. The ScotRail ban will have little to no effect on it.
I totally agree with you about Scotland's issues with alcohol related disease and death, but take issue with the above. In my experience problem drinking is ignored (because it's rowdy and staff don't want to get involved) whereas those having a quiet drink are told to stop, because it's an easy win for staff. The policy therefore does nothing to help the problem.
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Precisely. The lowest hanging fruit are always the easiest to pick.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Not currently you couldn't
Politicians and commentators of all sorts and parties seem to think that passing a law or regulation will solve every problem. In the real world where enforcement has to take place then reality sets in and we have the situation all the previous comments have described.
When I was responsible in a small way for enforcement then it was often remarked that those who passed the law should have to try and implement it.
When I was responsible in a small way for enforcement then it was often remarked that those who passed the law should have to try and implement it.
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This is not the point at all.
This is Scotrail - a company - imposing a Presbyterian prohibition on alcohol on their trains, which they explain is about making the environment on their company's trains "safe and friendly". It's about a minority of badly behaved louts who are rarely challenged anyway, not one quiet wino on a 158 who needs an intervention.
jagardner1984
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But that is surely it - a rule - any rule, will always have varying degrees of implementation. “no ball games” will be ignored by many. Some will have a quiet game, and others will batter the muddy football against your granny’s window. The rule exists so if someone chooses to intervene; they can point to the sign and say “can’t do that here pal” - despite most of those kicking the ball will cause no problem whatsoever.
Make no mistake, any change in this policy would only be perceived in one way by people who cause a problem in this area. And a pleasant travel experience it wouldn’t make.
gabrielhj07
Established Member
Surely much of what this ban is trying to achieve is already covered in the byelaws with respect to disorderly behaviour. Could a line not be added “No person shall be drunk” instead of banning alcohol outright?
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