Southeastern witness statement MG11 issued

[LadyOrange]

Hi all,

I have done something really, really, stupid and am consumed with anxiety. I really would appreciate any advise on the matter!

I bought an any time day return ticket on my phone via Trainline from St John’s to Cannon Street. I was stopped by inspectors at the gates and after a series back and forth and the inspector providing lots and lots of pressure on me. (I think He pretended to make a phone call to the cameras and made me face the cameras etc) threatened me with fraud and lying, I admitted I actually boarded the train at Petts wood. He then pressed record on his camera and told me he was going to report it. I asked him why wasn’t he recording from the start but I can’t remember his response as by this point I was extremely flustered, shocked, anxious etc. He asked me a few questions and one of them was have I done this before on my Trainline account to which I replied ‘I don’t know’ and then he said he suspects I purchased the ticket willingly or something along those lines and do I agree and I said ‘no comment’.

I then signed the report and he printed the receipt. Took copies of my driving licence and said they will be in touch.

From reading various threads I expect I’ll receive a letter of prosecution and need to write back to ask if I can settle out of court.

The whole ordeal was awful and I do feel like I was taken advantage of with his ‘method’ and line of questioning.

I’m more than happy to pay whatever I owe. After this incident I looked at my Trainline account and I do have more tickets of the same journey from St John's to Cannon Street anytime return on there. I was extremely flustered at the time and my answers were rubbish but I panicked. I would really appreciate if someone could take the time to respond and advise me of the next steps.

Rest assured I will never ever do anything like this again.

 

[ikcdab]

Please try not to panic. This can be sorted out but it may cost you.
So you actually boarded the train at Petts Wood but only bought a ticket from St Johns. That is called short faring and is illegal. If the railway company have access to your Trainline records, then they will also review other past purchases.
For now all you can really do is wait for the letter to arrive. I assume you gave them correct contact details so that you will receive the letter. Recently, letters have been arriving more quickly so you might hear soon. As soon as you get the letter, post a copy here with identifying details obscured and you will get good advice on how to reply.

 

[LadyOrange]

Please try not to panic. This can be sorted out but it may cost you.
So you actually boarded the train at Petts Wood but only bought a ticket from St Johns. That is called short faring and is illegal. If the railway company have access to your Trainline records, then they will also review other past purchases.
For now all you can really do is wait for the letter to arrive. I assume you gave them correct contact details so that you will receive the letter. Recently, letters have been arriving more quickly so you might hear soon. As soon as you get the letter, post a copy here with identifying details obscured and you will get good advice on how to reply.

Okay I will do. Thank you for your response. Yep, all correct details were passed over.

 

[Elecman]

Does your home address link to Petts Wood or StJohns ?

 

[LadyOrange]

Hi thank you for your reply can I check what you mean by this?

 

[Elecman]

Hi thank you for your reply can I check what you mean by this?

Is your home address nearer to Petts Wood or St John as you say you have other previous tickets from St John’s but travelled from Petts Wood on the occasion you were stopped and questioned

 

[LadyOrange]

ah okay thank you. It’s closer to Petts wood

 

[furlong]

If you were genuinely travelling from St. John's, wouldn't contactless payment have been both simpler and (slightly) cheaper? Suspicions are easily justified.

As to his methods, you were entitled to expect that everything he said to you in the course of his investigation was truthful. Faking a telephone call would probably be putting his job on the line, so you should assume he didn't.

Normally they'll look up your trainline account, work out how much they think you owe them, then threaten to prosecute you, at which point you can offer to save them the trouble by paying them back everything you owe.

And isn't contactless also cheaper from Petts Wood, such that if you'd intended to pay the correct fare you would have touched in rather than paying more for an anytime return?

 

[island]

And isn't contactless also cheaper from Petts Wood, such that if you'd intended to pay the correct fare you would have touched in rather than paying more for an anytime return?

Yes, and depending on time of travel, a contactless fare from Petts Wood to London Terminals might even have been cheaper than the ticket from St Johns.

 

[LadyOrange]

Thank you for your message and sorry for any confusion. I wasn’t travelling from ST johns I was travelling from Petts Wood which is short faring as @ikcdab mentions above. Stupid, I know and I’m seriously beating myself up. I'm sure they will add up the other tickets and let me know what I owe. I will post the letter here when it arrives and will seek advice on how best to respond. Thank you all for taking the time to reply. It is much appreciated and hope you have a lovely evening.

 

[Greyman1]

If you were genuinely travelling from St. John's, wouldn't contactless payment have been both simpler and (slightly) cheaper? Suspicions are easily justified.

As to his methods, you were entitled to expect that everything he said to you in the course of his investigation was truthful. Faking a telephone call would probably be putting his job on the line, so you should assume he didn't.

Normally they'll look up your trainline account, work out how much they think you owe them, then threaten to prosecute you, at which point you can offer to save them the trouble by paying them back everything you owe.

And isn't contactless also cheaper from Petts Wood, such that if you'd intended to pay the correct fare you would have touched in rather than paying more for an anytime return?

How would faking a phone call put his job on the line? He is applying pressure through an avenue will get a reaction, in efforts to get corroboration of his suspicious that this passenger is short faring.

Ultimately the OP passenger has been caught out, he's asked questions to get the intention to avoid a fare and they will look to recover outstanding fares they believe they are owed.
They will go through request the purchase data from whichever vendor is used and will look for short journeys.

Expect to be charged the single rate each way for all short journeys and there will be an investigation cost. Deal with the TOC in a business like manner and it will be fine.
How many journeys do you think you have made? And over what time period?

 

[furlong]

How would faking a phone call put his job on the line?

At a basic level if he's lying to the passenger, how could anything else he says be believed? Investigators rely on being trusted as having a reputation for integrity and this fatally undermines that. A witness statement where he admits being untruthful on his own initiative? "I lied to the passenger to trick them into a confession." A confession that might then be viewed as unsafe - or even denied! How can he expect anything else he says to be believed after that? How can he expect the passenger to be truthful if he isn't being? Any attempt at subterfuge should be backed up by a rigorous paper trail to try to avoid damaging that integrity, essentially demonstrating necessity and proportionality (i.e. generally accepted that it's impossible to obtain the evidence by honest means and the matter is serious enough that some element of subterfuge can be justified).

But this is a digression - there's no reason to believe there was any subterfuge - and we know this train company is usually willing to agree a financial settlement with people who seek one constructively.

 

[workingkadir12]

Hi there @LadyOrange , I'm also new poster to this thread.

Just wanted to say I hope you are feeling okay - I recently experienced something similar in terms of an officer acting a bit "different" to how they are (though of course, we can never know what their true intentions are, but we still feel a bit "off" during the encounter).

I can definitely say that the people in this forum are super nice and helpful.

All the best with your situation!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Being challenged over a ticketing offence can make someone feel flustered. There's not really anything you can do at this point in time until the letter from Southeastern arrives, which will probably take a few weeks. When it arrives, post a copy of it in this thread (with any personal details redacted) along with your dradft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Southeastern are generally one of the 'better' train companies to deal with. They will usually offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven't come to their attention before. If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay an admin fee of around £150 plus the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you purchased. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered.

 

[LadyOrange]

Hi all by way of update. I still haven’t received a letter yet. Thought I should let you know so you have an idea of how long it is taking in case you would like to advise others. Thanks

 

[30907]

Hi all by way of update. I still haven’t received a letter yet. Thought I should let you know so you have an idea of how long it is taking in case you would like to advise others. Thanks

Thanks for the info - it does indeed help with the bigger picture.

 

[LadyOrange]

Dear All,

By coincidence the letter arrived today! Please see the link below and can you advise on how best to respond?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

For full transparency, I have now checked my Trainline account and there are 28 open return journeys from St John’s to Cannon Street/London Bridge (including the incident on 4th June). Do I need to mention this or not? I obviously haven’t made any journeys like that since nor plan to ever again! The letter isn’t very clear on what to talk about but I remember the train man asking me if I had any other journeys like that on my account and I said I didn’t know.

 

[WesternLancer]

Dear All,

By coincidence the letter arrived today! Please see the link below and can you advise on how best to respond?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

For full transparency, I have now checked my Trainline account and there are 28 open return journeys from St John’s to Cannon Street/London Bridge (including the incident on 4th June). Do I need to mention this or not? I obviously haven’t made any journeys like that since nor plan to ever again! The letter isn’t very clear on what to talk about but I remember the train man asking me if I had any other journeys like that on my account and I said I didn’t know.

The usual advice given here, as often set out very clearly by @Hadders is to reply along following lines :

a short, concise reply to them and include the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Since they do not seem to be asking you about other instances where you have done this it is generally said that you have no need to mention that in your reply - but be aware they are probably checking your Trainline account and will see those tickets and may write to you about it separately or in future. Other forum members may have a view on whether it helps you avoid prosecution now if you do decide to tell them about it now or not.

 

[30907]

On that last point

Other forum members may have a view on whether it helps you avoid prosecution now if you do decide to tell them about it now or not.

I don't think we have enough evidence to say with any confidence.
Yes, people have offered detailed information and got a settlement, but so have people who weren't specific.
Obviously if they come back with a list, engage with it!

 

[LadyOrange]

Thanks I am not going to mention the other journeys as no need in response to this specific letter. I will of course cooperate if they come back with more questions. I will draft a response and will post here shortly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2024 ==

Hi all here is my draft response. I would be grateful for your review/comments.


Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was a stupid mistake, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would love the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

[*]

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks I am not going to mention the other journeys as no need in response to this specific letter. I will of course cooperate if they come back with more questions. I will draft a response and will post here shortly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2024 ==

Hi all here is my draft response. I would be grateful for your review/comments.


Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was a stupid mistake, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would love the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

[*]

Hi your draft has only just popped up as visible to me (tho says posted here Tuesday at 18.38) - but in any case this looks pretty good in terms of a response to them

It's a minor point but I would be a little but more formal with this sentence:

As such, I would love the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred.

and instead I might suggest

As such, I would be most grateful if you were prepared to let me have the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred, as well as the fare owed.

 

[LadyOrange]

Hi many thanks for your response I have pasted the revised draft below including your comments. Hopefully others can see!!

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was a stupid mistake, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would be most grateful if you were prepared to let me have the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred, as well as the fare owed.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.


Yours faithfully,

[*]

 

[30907]

I acknowledge this was a stupid mistake

Sorry, but it wasn't a mistake - (1) you bought a short ticket and (2) tried to bluff your way out. Neither action was a mistake.
You could try "stupid and wrong" perhaps?

 

[LadyOrange]

Good point! Thank you. Revised version below:

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was a stupid and wrong, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would be most grateful if you were prepared to let me have the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred, as well as the fare owed.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,



[*]

 

[furlong]

Avoid the phrase "the fare owed" which, if they discover other instances, suggests you are trying to hide them. I.e. make sure nothing in the letter precludes an interpretation that you'll also settle other instances they might discover. (minimum change is just to delete the end of that sentence)

 

[LadyOrange]

I did think this and originally left it out so have removed again. Revised version below

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was stupid and wrong, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would be most grateful if you were prepared to let me have the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

[*]

 

[WesternLancer]

Avoid the phrase "the fare owed" which, if they discover other instances, suggests you are trying to hide them. I.e. make sure nothing in the letter precludes an interpretation that you'll also settle other instances they might discover. (minimum change is just to delete the end of that sentence)

Good point - I should have thought of that when I suggested an amend to the OP which included that.

 

[LadyOrange]

Good point - I should have thought of that when I suggested an amend to the OP which included that.

No matter! I'm very grateful for all views and comments ☺️

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2024 ==

Okay so if no other comments I will reply with the below. Many thanks for all of your help and I will keep you posted.

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter dated 5 July 2024 concerning the incident on the morning of 4 June 2024, where I was questioned by a member of rail staff for Southeastern at Cannon Street station.

I foolishly purchased a non-valid any time day return ticket from St John’s to London Bridge (all London terminals), where I boarded the train at Petts Wood to Cannon Street, and that is the fare journey for which I should have paid.

I acknowledge this was stupid and wrong, and I sincerely apologise for any financial and administrative trouble you may have experienced.

I can assure you that I will never purchase a short-fare ticket again. I realise fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of pounds every year, and I am genuinely sorry to have contributed to that.

I really hope that this doesn’t result in criminal prosecutions. As such, I would be most grateful if you were prepared to let me have the opportunity to make this right, and I am more than happy to cover all fees, including any administrative costs you may have incurred.

I hope we can settle this matter out of court, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

[*]

 

[LadyOrange]

Hi everyone by way of update I still haven’t heard back from southeastern after sending my letter. Do you know how long they can take to let me know if they agree to settle or not?

Many thanks in advance

 

[Hadders]

It can take them a few weeks to reply, and we are in peak holiday season at the moment so I wouldn't worry just yet.