Harrogate Pullman, c1966 - 69

[mike57]

As a youngster we used to catch the Harrogate Pullman from London a couple of times a year to visit family that lived near Harrogate. A simple question, what would likely have hauled us. I am sure it wasn't a Deltic, even the 10yo me was aware of them, but even in 1966 it was diesel. First stop Wakefield I think, then the reversal at Leeds, and a very slow (at least it seemed slow) run up through Headingly and Horsforth.

 

[jfollows]

In 1966 (18/5/66 to 5/3/67 timetable) 1N24 17:37 King's Cross to Leeds, Bradford, Harrogate and Hull was Deltic-hauled from King's Cross, first stop Doncaster arrive 19:58, depart 20:03 after detaching 1N95 which left Doncaster at 20:09 for Hull.

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Also:
1N13 11:25 King's Cross to Harrogate and Bradford, also Deltic-hauled, first stop after Doncaster so presumably Wakefield as you say.

Taken from the working timetable covering King's Cross to Doncaster, which does not show train names but shows that both of these trains had pullman cars. The timetable also shows if trains were Deltic-hauled.

 

[mike57]

1N13 11:25 King's Cross to Harrogate and Bradford, also Deltic-hauled, first stop after Doncaster so presumably Wakefield as you say.

That surprises me, it was the 11.25 we used to get. Would the Deltic run around at Leeds or would something else take over for the run up to Harrogate.

 

[E27007]

As a youngster we used to catch the Harrogate Pullman from London a couple of times a year to visit family that lived near Harrogate. A simple question, what would likely have hauled us. I am sure it wasn't a Deltic, even the 10yo me was aware of them, but even in 1966 it was diesel. First stop Wakefield I think, then the reversal at Leeds, and a very slow (at least it seemed slow) run up through Headingly and Horsforth.

Are you sure it was named the Harrogate Pullman? The service may be known as the Yorkshire Pullman under BR.

 

[jfollows]

That surprises me, it was the 11.25 we used to get. Would the Deltic run around at Leeds or would something else take over for the run up to Harrogate.

The following year, 6/3/67 to 5/5/68 timetable, 1N13 was the 11:30 King's Cross to Leeds & Harrogate, Deltic and "Timed to exceed 90mph". The Deltic diagrams for that year can be found at http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt67summer_diagrams.htm and are attached. The Deltic worked as far as Leeds.
EDIT Similarly 1N13 was the 11:30 in 68/69.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst we assume this service would, routinely, be a Deltic what could substitute in the event of failure or lower than acceptable availability?

 

[mike57]

Are you sure it was named the Harrogate Pullman? The service may be known as the Yorkshire Pullman under BR.

Cant remember... its 60 years ago. It did leave King Cross before lunch, arriving Harrogate mid afternoon with no changes, and first stop Wakefield. There was a full lunch service, and I think it was a Pullman. I am fairly sure the train split in Leeds with maybe a portion for Bradford.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Bradford portion of the 'Yorkshire Pullman' was steam hauled to / from Leeds until September 1967. 'B1' 61306 did the honours on the last day (30th).

 

[jfollows]

6 March 1967 to 5 May 1968 working timetable extract attached - as far as Doncaster. The previous year there was a Bradford portion - mentioned above - but in 1967 this no longer ran - or, rather, there was a portion for Leeds only which used to go to Bradford the previous year.
The “+” means “timed to exceed 90mph” and the “blob” means Deltic-hauled, whereas “H” means other sort of (diesel) engine at the top of some other timetable columns.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Whilst we assume this service would, routinely, be a Deltic what could substitute in the event of failure or lower than acceptable availability?

From photos I've seen online and in the railway press, Brush Type 4 from a suitsble BR(ER) shed.

 

[Magdalia]

As a youngster we used to catch the Harrogate Pullman from London a couple of times a year to visit family that lived near Harrogate.

The train that had Harrogate in its name was the Harrogate Sunday Pullman, which ran until the March 1967 timetable change. In the 1966/67 timetable the down train departed Kings Cross at 0940, called at Doncaster and divided at Leeds with Harrogate and Bradford portions. The up train portions departed Harrogate at 1537 and Bradford at 1547, joining at Leeds for a non-stop run to Kings Cross.

For a long while the Harrogate Sunday Pullman had been the Sunday equivalent of the Queen of Scots Pullman, which ran between Kings Cross and Glasgow via Harrogate on Mondays-Saturdays until May 1964. From May 1964 to March 1967 there was a White Rose Pullman 1125 Kings Cross to Harrogate and 1600 back, with a Bradford portion, replacing the Queen of Scots.

In 1966/67 the White Rose and Harrogate Sunday Pullman were booked Deltics between Kings Cross and Leeds.

The White Rose and Harrogate Sunday Pullman ended in March 1967 because of the impending arrival of air braked MarkII coaches. The weekday train became 1130 Kings Cross-Harrogate and 1620 back, booked for Deltics on load 8. These were amongst the first trains to get air braked coaches, towards the end of 1967, and did not have Bradford portions. The Sunday train continued to run at 0940 Kings Cross-Harrogate and 1610 back, with Bradford portions. These were booked for Deltics but I think they were vacuum braked stock.

Once the trains switched to air braked stock the loco between Leeds and Harrogate would probably be one of Holbeck's air braked class 25s.

 

[mike57]

6 March 1967 to 5 May 1968 working timetable extract attached - as far as Doncaster.

Interesting. 2hr 4m to passing Doncaster, brings home what a step change the HST was. I think I first did the journey in 1966, but it could have been 1967, unfortunately all the family members involved who could confirm the date have long since passed away, this then formed a pattern for me on and off for over 10 years, latterly travelling on my own on occasions before moving north to Yorkshire in 1980. I seem to remember the total journey was just short of 4 hours, arriving after 3pm into Harrogate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2024 ==

Once the trains switched to air braked stock the loco between Leeds and Harrogate would probably be one of Holbeck's air braked class 25s.

I do remember progress out of Leeds was 'sedate'

 

[Taunton]

Whilst we assume this service would, routinely, be a Deltic what could substitute in the event of failure or lower than acceptable availability?

There was generally a "knock down" of power, where Deltic services would drop to a Class 47, Class 47 to a 46, etc. The most common reason for Deltic shortage was too many of them in Doncaster works for repairs. There was a basic Game Plan for all this when there was one Deltic short, two short, etc. Another aspect was that Deltics only carried on from Edinburgh to Aberdeen if there was a full complement of them. I knew someone who lived lineside in Fife who commented that some days one would pass, other days not.

The magazines of the day, Cecil J Allen in Modern Railways and O S Nock in the Railway Magazine, very regularly covered locomotive performance on substituted services. I vaguely recall a particular one, probably late 1970s, when an "intermediate" Up Leeds service, booked for a Class 47 with Mk2C stock, so not air conditioned, had a Class 40 instead. It seemed very late for one to be on an ECML express. Essentially full throttle all the way, and some decidedly spirited air brake stops at stations.

Presumably all ECML crews signed Class 46 (and Class 40), as they seemed very common substitutes. I remember Class 46 also on Cambridge to Kings Cross fasts.

 

[DarloRich]

There was generally a "knock down" of power, where Deltic services would drop to a Class 47, Class 47 to a 46, etc. The most common reason for Deltic shortage was too many of them in Doncaster works for repairs. There was a basic Game Plan for all this when there was one Deltic short, two short, etc. Another aspect was that Deltics only carried on from Edinburgh to Aberdeen if there was a full complement of them. I knew someone who lived lineside in Fife who commented that some days one would pass, other days not.

The magazines of the day, Cecil J Allen in Modern Railways and O S Nock in the Railway Magazine, very regularly covered locomotive performance on substituted services. I vaguely recall a particular one, probably late 1970s, when an "intermediate" Up Leeds service, booked for a Class 47 with Mk2C stock, so not air conditioned, had a Class 40 instead. It seemed very late for one to be on an ECML express. Essentially full throttle all the way, and some decidedly spirited air brake stops at stations.

Presumably all ECML crews signed Class 46 (and Class 40), as they seemed very common substitutes. I remember Class 46 also on Cambridge to Kings Cross fasts.

thanks - I recall my dad mentioning class 40's turning up on ECML overnight services in the late 70's. He used them from Doncaster/Selby to Durham/Newcastle. I think they carried on until the very early 1980's.

I assume that if the Deltic was unavailable the shed chucked out anything in the type 4 bracket that needed to go back north: That 46 is needed back at Gateshead, whack it on the express and get shot of it!

 

[Taunton]

The Deltics were used as much overnight as on the fastest daytime expresses, services which were not timed for high speed but were heavy. This could be seen in other BR areas as well, on the WR Kings were as much used overnight as during the day. When it came to turnarounds at Edinburgh, only the first Down service, 0800 from Kings Cross due 1400, could form a return service, last daytime train at 1600, into London 2200. But they would return overnight on a range of services (as well as, as described, often doing the continuation to Aberdeen and back). They couldn't do a quick turnround, fuel (and boiler water) capacity was limited, so on arrival at Edinburgh they always had to go to Haymarket depot for servicing. At Kings Cross there was the facility on the west side of the station.

 

[Magdalia]

The period under discussion is 1966-69, and, for various reasons, ECML traction wasn't exactly like the 1970s.

The Eastern and North Eastern Regions were separate until 1967. The "old" Eastern Region did not have classes 46 or 40, except for the prototype class 40s which were based on the Great Eastern not the ECML. This meant that classes 46 and 40 were mostly confined to "North Eastern" jobs up to Kings Cross and back again. It took a few years for the old regional boundary to break down.

The last Crewe built Brush Type 4s, D1976-99 and D1100-11, were delivered early in 1966 to the North Eastern Region. When new, they were mainly used on the North Eastern's ECML jobs, pushing out classes 40 and 46.

Then the air braked stock began to be introduced in 1967. Air braked stock needs air braked locos. The Deltics were retro fitted at Doncaster Works but the North Eastern Region's new Brush Type 4s were built with air brakes. On the other hand the "new" combined Eastern Region did not have air braked class 40s until 1969 and did not have air braked class 46s until 1970. In 1966-69 any ECML workings by classes 46 and 40 were confined to the trains that were still vacuum braked.

Interesting. 2hr 4m to passing Doncaster, brings home what a step change the HST was.

The Deltic period saw a significant improvement in journey times, those times didn't last until the HSTs arrived. One aspect of this was the air braked load 8 trains introduced in 1967, but another factor was a programme of works to raise speed limits and eliminate bottlenecks. The most significant of these was the rebuild at Peterborough completed in 1973, which allowed 100 mph running through the middle of the station instead of 20 mph through what are now platforms 1 and 2.

Presumably all ECML crews signed Class 46 (and Class 40), as they seemed very common substitutes. I remember Class 46 also on Cambridge to Kings Cross fasts.

Kings Cross crews did know classes 46 and 40, but Hitchin and Cambridge crews did not. Classes 46 and 40 on the Cambridge Buffet Expresses was very much a 1970s not 1960s thing, and were almost entirely confined to the 1130 down and 1330 up trains which were booked a Kings Cross crew. This turn even occasionally produced Finsbury Park Deltics running in after repairs.